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So... does anybody on dakka have any idea on using any of the following units with the space marine codex,
since it seems nobody uses them:

Assault marines

Tactical termies

Captain/command squad

Chapter master

Chaplain

Vindicators

TFC

Ironclad dreads

There are of course ven dreads, vanguards etc. and I know why they aren't used, but
I'm wondering a bit about these choices, so any ideas for any of them or thoughts
on them, even if you haven't tried them?


EDIT: On the captain/command squad I mean on foot, in bike lists they're of course seen quite a bit.

EDIT 2: Add scout bikes and whirlwinds to the list!

You can use the
-Captain/Command Squad if you're running a bike list.
-Tactical Termies with Assault Cannons and CML are pretty good all round shock troops
-Chaplain is good for whatever assault unit you attach him to.
-Vindicator is pretty good if you can cover its sides and advance up the board shooting everything.
-With its 4 shots the TFC can be good anti-hoard

Assault marines: not too impressive. I'd rather field CCW Scouts.

Tactical Termies: I love these. Especially at full strength, dual CML and a couple Chainfists, with Lysander!

Captain/command squad: the Captain ain't too shabby by himself, and FnP/quadruple Plasmagun is nothing to be sniffed at

Chapter master/honour guard: players I respect take the CM specifically to unlock HG, and use them as shock troops over VVs and Assault Marines. Haven't tried them myself tho

Chaplain: I love this dude, it's just that the Libby is generally more useful

Vindicators: IDK your meta but I encounter plenty of these.

TFC: heavily underrated. I'd like to think I'd field one if it weren't for Lysander already unlocking Fortifications.

Ironclad Dreads: I think immunity vs S6 counts for a lot. That said I've only ever used it Podding with 2 HKMs, and at that point it's pretty much a suicide unit - and granted, it's pretty expensive to fill such a role

6 Ironclads in a MOTF list looks pretty nasty, all that AV13.

Stick that quadruple plasma command squad on bikes for relentless goodness.

Then... what does everyone think about techmarines? I just can't really find a place for them. Some other things would be devastators, most people take predators instead, and in a lot of armies attack bikes aren't used

Pfft, I use most of what you mention, helps when I make my own lists and understand my own codex rather than making copycat lists


Assault marines - I don't use these, and while they can be useful, they are simply assault marines that don't get any bonuses. If you need a fast assault thingy, they work.

Tactical termies - Derp a herp, I don't use these and they don't serve any purpose, assault terminators with storm shields do the job much better.

Captain/command squad - My captian on a bike or my command squad (either on foot or on bikes) tend to grace the field 90% of the time. I run a dual powerfist captain or a relic blade on bike captain, and as for the command squad it comes in 3 flavors, 6 LC, standard bearer or 3 LC, champion, bikes or 4 plasma guns, bikes. They make a dent in everything and the 4 plasma bike squad is crazy good.

Chapter master - meh, why pay 25 points more for a single shot large blast that can't fire if he moves? It can work in a scout sniper heavy list or devestator heavy one.

Chaplain - These guys are amazing, but chaplin cassius has them all beat. For the cost of 5 powerfists, this guy is toughness 6 and has feel no pain. A steal.

Vindicators - Well since everyone is playing blood angels, fast vindicators are better then slow vindicators.

TFC - THIS is the ONE true GREAT thing in the codex is always overlooked, but it's amazing. Hard to kill? Stick in cover (ruins), use it's terrain rounds to slow things down, fire the cover ignoring stuff at hordes for maximum death, and toss str 6 shots at guys when you feel like it. Also, if you blow open a transport, the thunderfire cannons have a field day with the occupants. MY thunderfire cannons, all 3, strike terror in the all my foes. Even mech heavy ones.

Ironclad dreads - I use two, and boy do people hate them. They need a drop pod to work, but simply drop on the enemy, pop smoke (unless you have vulcan) and then run around to a better vantage point and proceed with the tahk killing next round.

Techmarines - There really isn't much use for these guys, they could be placed inside vehicles to help repair them but that's about it.

I use these
Captain/command squad

Chapter master

Chaplain

Vindicators

They are extremely potent when used.
Especially with the orbital bombardment and the Vindcator.

Vanguard veterans are so unused.
Same with Devastator Marines so over costed

I like running a chaplain with a LC termy squad riding in a LR. Reroll to hit and to wound in CC? Delicious.

EnormousName wrote:So... does anybody on dakka have any idea on using any of the following units with the space marine codex,
since it seems nobody uses them:

Assault marines
Tactical termies
Captain/command squad
Chapter master
Chaplain
Vindicators
TFC
Ironclad dreads

There are of course ven dreads, vanguards etc. and I know why they aren't used, but
I'm wondering a bit about these choices, so any ideas for any of them or thoughts
on them, even if you haven't tried them?


EDIT: On the captain/command squad I mean on foot, in bike lists they're of course seen quite a bit.

I like assault marines as a rapid response force. They can get to where I need support and plow in to help their fellow marines. While not as spectacular as other chapters specialist, they are good enough to get the job done. It helps that I have a chaplain leading them.

When I'm picking out HQs captains and chapter masters are just the 3rd best option. They just give me stern looks when I walk by the shelf, while the chaplains scream "Use me to smite the heretics!" In the back of my mind, however, I know the Librarian is the best choice. Damn crafty psychers... I've never been disappointed with my chaplains leading an assault squad, jump or terminators. You get a lot of bang for your buck with them.

Tac termis are not sexy. They don't do a lot of damage, the wrong weapons will just cut them apart. But they can take a lot of punishment before they go down. I've had them fold like chumps, I've had them survive unthinkable odds. In the right situation they are awesome, in the wrong one a huge waste of points. I want to like and field them more, but they don't have a lot of "zing" I use them from time to time just to mix things up. They also suffer a lot from the competition in the elite slot.

I've only had my ironclad painted for a little bit, fielded it in about 5 games so far. I like it a lot. Drop pod carnage! I keep thinking of other ways to use him. Not useless at all.

I don't own a Vindicator or a TFC, so I can't speak on them. They both look a little fragile for what they do. I use Preds and Devs for my HS slots.

The thunderfire cannon and vindicators are both awesome, if you ever get the chance to play with them. Also take multiple.

Captain and command squad not on bikes is worth it if you have used your elite slots up. They can do whatever, usually a sternguard role with a few cc capabilities thrown in.

Tactical Terminators are bad? How come? They're Terminators, it's pretty hard to go wrong with that. Point them at stuff, shoot that stuff to death, watch the Termies not die ever (until suddenly a Genestealer). Simples!

TFC is meh. In my limited experience with them - limited because nobody uses them - they die before they get to do anything serious. They're too fragile.The only good thing about them is their Techmarine, but really, just take a Techmarine.

Techmarines are good. They're in 2+ armour, so yay, and they can make cover saves ungodly. Sadly, they're too slow to really make use of their repair thing, unless you hide them behind two or three Dreadnoughts or something.

EDIT: What's wrong with Ironclads? They're like Terminator Dreadnoughts. They're awesome. Take ten of them.

Try a techmarine on a bike to spice up a biked command squad.

In my huge amount of experience, 2 Ard Boyz semi-final first places, Adepticon Gladiator champion and Team Tourney Champion, I will have to say the Thunderfire Cannon is one of the top choices in the Marine Codex.

EnormousName wrote:Assault marines

Assault Marines aren't necessarily bad. Stelek over at yesthetruthhurts.com has posted several lists that use them running behind transports as a "mop up" force for finishing off enemy infantry. The problem you may run into, though, is that Assault Marines are a much stronger option in Codex: Blood Angels than in Codex: Space Marines, so Codex: Space Marines is at a comparative disadvantage when using this unit.

EnormousName wrote:Tactical termies

The best configuration I've seen with these is to run a squad of 10 with two Cyclone missile launchers, join Captain Lysander to the unit, and line them up in front of your army. This will provide cover saves to most of your force as well as very effective shooting, and you can take low AP hits on Lysander's 4 wounds/3++/EW to avoid losing models. That said, doing so obviously represents a large chunk of your list!

EnormousName wrote:Captain/command squad

This unit's a bit of a disappointment except when mounted on bikes, I'm afraid. I've seen people fielding Command Squads with four plasma guns and the like, but generally speaking I don't think this option is effective enough for its slot and points.

EnormousName wrote:Chapter master

The best you can say for the Chapter Master is that he's better than the Captain. 25 points for the orbital barrage is completely worth it, but still not really enough to justify taking a Chapter Master instead of a more utility-based HQ.

EnormousName wrote:Chaplain

Generic Chaplains are basically universally outclassed by Chaplain Cassius in this edition. For a mere 25 points over the base, you gain ubergrit, a master-crafted combi-flamer with inferno bolts, +2 Toughness, and Feel No Pain. For this reason, taking normal Chaplains (or even Terminator Chaplains) is almost never good unless you're extremely crunched on points. The only real reason to take a Chaplain would be with a unit using Jump Packs or Bikes (as Cassius doesn't have those options), but then you run into the problem where such units generally aren't hugely effective, and adding a Chaplain may be throwing good points after bad.

EnormousName wrote:Vindicators

Vindicators require the support of other vehicles to screen their vulnerable flanks, especially against mobile armies, but are otherwise quite appealing, especially since they tend to be one of the most psychologically effective "you must kill this" units in the game. That said, I find other Heavy Support choices more compelling-- but in aggressive armies, Vindicators can constitute another big threat that the opponent has to consider.

EnormousName wrote:TFC

I'm surprised to find this on the list, because the Thunderfire Cannon is enormously effective. All you really need to do is put it in your list, deploy in cover (ideally 3+ cover from your Bolster Defenses) and fire away. In general, you should fire standard shots at MEQs or multi-wound/FNP T3 models, airburst shots at Guardsmen and similar models in cover, and subterranean shots at vehicles or bikes. While the Thunderfire Cannon is certainly fragile, it doesn't yield a KP easily and represents an extremely significant threat to almost any clustered foe, including units that you knock out of a transport. I often field 2 and find them to be star performers against many opponents.

EnormousName wrote:Ironclad dreads

Ironclads are much better in assault than normal Dreadnoughts-- the extra pip of AV goes a long way-- but getting there can be tough. I have several but have found them to be of mixed effectiveness. In some games, they rampage from unit to unit, while in some games they are destroyed easily. If Codex: Space Marines gains access to the Stormraven, these will likely become much more popular-- as it stands, they lack a real delivery mechanism and thus require clever play to use effectively.

Frozen Ocean wrote:Tactical Terminators are bad? How come? They're Terminators, it's pretty hard to go wrong with that. Point them at stuff, shoot that stuff to death, watch the Termies not die ever

Tacs are good if you spend enough points to make them a brick.

To make a good brick unit, you need a full unit of Tac terminators.
Then you need to give the unit two CMLs so they can effect a number of targets.
Then if you add Lysander, you have a eternal warrior with a 3+ save that can eat the incoming LC shot.
Throw in two chain fists, so your terminators can also threaten AV 14.

Your end result is an incredibly versatile, tough unit. You have 10 TL storm bolters, 4 MLs, 8 PFs, 2 CFs, and the beatstick Lysander.
That clocks in at 670 points. That's one heck of an expensive deathstar. Is it worth it? Well, to be honest I'm not sure.

(Note - Calgar can work instead of Lysander. Hes 50 more points, but god of war is awesome, and Calgar is a huge beatstick as well)

I think Calgar is better than Lysander for the army as a whole, but worse for the Terminator unit. After all, Lysander has both a 3++ instead of a 4++ for tanking those lascannon hits and allows the entire squad to re-roll missed shots.

However, Calgar does bring an Orbital Bombardment to the table, as well as an AP2 re-roll to wound storm bolter, and his morale effects are obviously much better than those of Lysander.

On the other hand, he's also more expensive...

Yea, Calgar is 65 more points, but hes much more of a beatstick. He has 5 attacks instead of 3 and rerolls hits and wounds.

Given the orbital bombardment, which seems to be valued at 25 points, and the god of war ability, hes a great character.

funny, I use all those units in my space marine lists, with the exclusion of tact. termies and thunderfire cannons. Btw I really like the rules for the cannon, just the price of it put me off

I used to run 2 vindicaters in my Vulcan list, I absolutely love these things. A dirty trick I never see people do is put brother sargent chronus in one of them and you have a st 10 blast weapon that has to deviate 6 before it even moves 1. I don't have my dex on me so I don't remember how much he is, he's definately worth it.

Yeah, I see almost all of these units a lot where I play.
Does anyone use scout bikes though? I never really hear about them...

DakkaHammer wrote:Yeah, I see almost all of these units a lot where I play.
Does anyone use scout bikes though? I never really hear about them...

I just finished painting up three, and look forward to using them. Between scout, infiltrate, and turbo boost, they can be first turn assaulting immobile vehicals. And while they are in the middle of your opponents army, their locator becon can bring down support right where you need it. Mines might be worth it, I'll need to test them out. Relentless rapidfire grenade launchers look to put out a reasonable amount of firepower. And you get all this for a little over a hundred points. On paper they look like they have a lot of tricks they can pull. I look farward to testing them out.

It's not like I'm doing much else with my FA slots...

Well, since everyone uses those units after all, who uses Aun'o'T'au'Acaya'Va'Denta? (for people who don't speak tau that = Aun'va)

EnormousName wrote:Well, since everyone uses those units after all, who uses Aun'o'T'au'Acaya'Va'Denta? (for people who don't speak tau that = Aun'va)

I've never used him in my Space Marine army, but I suspect I could find a good use for him...

A place to store expended bolter rounds

The only reason i see techmarines as useful is in defensive style anti hoard battles. They fortify your positions and can take HB servitors and are only 50 points. To me though, that's their only use

I rarely see Devs. I used some today in a game They where aable to take alot out.
Also i dont see snipers out alot. My guess is because of the current mech focus.

I am planning of getting a ten man assault marine squad and see how that goes. I am going to tie a Libby to that group and see how that goes. I think it would be a quick objective contester or at least making my opponent think twice about assaulting a tac squad that will tag along with it.

hotsauceman1 wrote:I rarely see Devs. I used some today in a game They where aable to take alot out.
Also i dont see snipers out alot. My guess is because of the current mech focus.

Devs don't see much use these days due to the prohibitive cost of their upgrades.

Also, no Tactical Termies? IMPOSSIBRU. In my opinion, one of the must under-appreciated units in the codex.

Tac Terminators can be okay with cover; Lysander is also a big help.

TFC is good.

Chaplains are good for making an important unit (like a big block of assault terms) Fearless; this was more important when IG were dominating and you ran into Psyker Battle Squads regularly.

Ironclads are solid. Particularly in a dread-spam list led by MotF, even dropping in a pod without one, they can roll up a flank/smash stuff.

I was thinking, what about using Ironclad Dreads in a Vulkan list?

You can get two twin-linked heavy flamers with two DCCWs, or a TL HF and a TL MG with 2 DCCWs. Sounds pretty good to me on an AV13 platform.

Tactical terminators are good. Their main problem is they compete with something better (dreadnoughts for shooting, assault terminators for assault). If there was a way to make them troops (perhaps by taking a Captain in terminator armour) then more people would take them. A 235 point unit with chainfist and cyclone is not a bad alternative to a tactical squad or bike squad.

There are always two costs to a unit. Their points cost, and their opportunity cost. The point cost is obvious, and the opportunity cost is basically about "what do I lose if I take this unit?" Troops have the lowest opportunity cost. You have six slots and few options there (bikes, scouts, tactical squads). Fast attack can be clearly ranked (land speeders, attack bikes, scout bikes, bikes, assault squads, vanguard). Heavy support likewise (predators, vindicators = thunder fire cannon, Land Raiders (Crusader/Redeemer/Standard), devastators, whirlwinds).

Elites are hardest because they only have three slots, a lot of units, and most of the units are pretty good. I would rank them, dreadnoughts, assault terminators, sternguard, tactical terminators, ironclad dreadnoughts, venerable dreadnoughts, techmarines, legion of the damned. Since you're prioritising your few slots then you'll probably take dreadnoughts, assault termintors and/or sternguard, and then not have the slots to take anything else.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Obviously for HQ it's Librarians, Captains (for bikes), Master of the Forge (more dreadnoughts), Chaplains, and Chapter Masters.