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Hi Guys, On Buying my GK Army, I bought 4 Rhinos with Strike Squads inside a couple of months before 6th Came out and I also have a LR with a Squad of Termies and a Librarian in. But it seems like 6th Edition is moving away from the mech meta game and moving more towards infantry, with random game lengths and not being able to hold inside vehicles and the assault restriction (of course the LR can still assault, but you can't pivot and assault out of Rhinos) Will Vehicles still be effective? I love Vehicles and I always want to include them in my army when I can, Being a Tau player I love having lots of Devilfi and Hammerheads and I like the uniform feel to it, but I don't want an army of Terminators as I prefer Power Armoured Marines.

Any Help Would Be Appreciated!

Running Grey Knights inside of Rhinos and Terminators in a Land Raider seems very. . .Vanilla Marines to me. A lot of the rule changes appear to be pushing players towards actually using tactics and being combative not just letting "bring the biggest and most defensible vehicles" the plan of action. Random game turns have always been a thing, so that's no different, and neither is assaulting out of vehicles that aren't Assault Vehicles or Open-Topped.

My suggestion is to read the new rules thoroughly, as always, and to check the FAQs to see if anything new and interesting popped up for your army's units, and to try to stuff. Use things that other Codices don't generally get to make use of, rather than taking something that every other Marine can take (ie units in Rhinos and Terminators in a Land Raider).

Its too bad you prefer not to use Terminators because now GK Terminators are one of the best troops choices. The have 2+ which very few close combat weapons can penetrate now and they can all of Daemon hammers for free, so they can kill other 2+ armor save units if they need to.

Those Rhinos you bought are not totally useless. They can move 18 inches now instead of just 12(12 in movement and 6 in shooting) so when you need to get in or out fast you can, faster than you could before anyway.

Land Raider on the other hand...Whilst still 14 AV on all sides means its hard to glance or penetrate, I feel it is no longer worth the points. Not by much but still not worth it. I really think you'd be better off with a 6 man Terminator squad for a similar price(or 5 Termies if you wanna have some upgrades in there).

I don't mind having a few Termies, but I don't really want a whole army, not only are they fairly expensive but I also prefer the look of the less cumbersome power armoured guys, I'm thinking of now taking a Grand Master to allow my Dreadnoughts to capture objectives as opposed to using men in Vehicles, I don't really want a footslogging unit of Termies but maybe a squad of 5 with a shrouded librarian in a fortification is the best way to go now?

Vehicles got a nerf in the new edition. Hands down. On the other hand, flyers are awesome.
We will see a shift in the direction of hybrid lists, with tanks, transports, and infantry.

The Rhinos should be fine, they're only 35pts and their only real purpose is to get you from point A to point B in a turn or 2.

Gunboats got a lot more useable compared to before because the random results were what stopped you as well as the weapon destroyed now making you useless. Randomized destroyed weapons as well as glances doing nothing makes things like predators and vindicators jump for joy.

Hull points hurts vehicles but mainly transports, however they were very powerful in comparison to their points so a needed change in my opinion. They are still quite useful and with the current speed modifications you are going to get the charge at the same time as you did before, you are just going to have to risk a turn of shooting to do it(unless you are open topped)

Vehicles only need to be 25% covered to benefit from cover saves. In addition to that their cover saves are often vastly improved. For example, parking a Hydra Squadron behind an Aegis Defence Line gives all of them 4+ cover saves, which gets further improved during night fight to 3+ or even 2+.

Even during daylight, if that Hydra Squadron behind that Aegis Defence Line had upgraded one of the tanks to have Camo Netting, the whole squad would have a 3+ cover save against shooting. That's a pretty nifty save to have. 25% cover isn't hard to get.

I believe many Imperial Guard vehicles are so underpriced that we'll keep seeing masses of them. Chimeras also have plenty of firepoints and the rules for passengers shooting from vehicles have been improved. Your Chimera can move 12" and you can still snap fire through the firepoints (even heavy weapons). If you're shooting against flyers for example you'll hit with 6's anyway so this isn't even a drawback.

The one rule that is truly a drawback to massing vehicles is the fact that vehicles don't even contest (the new word is deny) objectives. You'll need troops choices that aren't vehicles to score, but you also need non-vehicle units to deny objectives. For example a Blood Angel army with 4x5 Assault Marines with Razorbacks and 6 Predators would have only 4 units that can score and deny objectives altogether, which isn't really enough.

So, while buying tanks keep in mind you'll need to have a lot of boots on the ground as well during later turns.

Thanks for the comments, I'd just like to show you the 5E list I had and ask how you will think it'll fare in 6E. I am obviously going to make a couple of changes but here it is anyway:


HQ:

Brotherhood Champion 100

Troops:

Strike Squad 275
MC Hammer, 2 Psycannons, Rhino

Strike Squad 275
MC Hammer, 2 Psycannons, Rhino

Strike Squad 275
MC Hammer, 2 Psycannons, Rhino

Strike Squad 275
MC Hammer, 2 Psycannons, Rhino

Elites:

9 Purifiers 258
MC Hammer, 2 Psycannons, 6 Halberds

Heavy Support:

Land Raider 270
Multi Melta, Psybolt Ammunition

Dreadnought 135
2 TL Autocannons, Psybolt Ammunition

Dreadnought 135
2 TL Autocannons, Psybolt Ammunition

1998/2000

I am planning on going on 1850 points anyway as I don't want the double FoC so some of this will be getting dropped, I'm thinking the Land Raider might be dropped in favour of a Libby and Termies maybe, That Shrouding has a chance to really help give my units cover, but we shall see.

How about anti-air defense?

wuestenfux wrote:How about anti-air defense?

If you don't think massing a horde of psycannons and psybolt ammunition TL heavy bolters and TL autocannons is anti-air defence, what do you think a single quad gun will do? The standard Psyback/Rifleman horde is better equipped to deal with flyers than most armies, due to high strength and the weapons being twin-linked.

I swear people are just being obtuse about this subject. Imperial Guard players with BS3 troops lose 33% accuracy from their weapons but gain mobility and they're acting like their absolute mountain of heavy and special weapons can't hit flyers at all anymore.

Twin-linked is the new black. The most extreme example is the Annihilation Barge which hits 5.33 times normally, and 3.66 times against flyers.

Therion wrote:

wuestenfux wrote:How about anti-air defense?

If you don't think massing a horde of psycannons and psybolt ammunition TL heavy bolters and TL autocannons is anti-air defence, what do you think a single quad gun will do? The standard Psyback/Rifleman horde is better equipped to deal with flyers than most armies, due to high strength and the weapons being twin-linked.

I swear people are just being obtuse about this subject. Imperial Guard players with BS3 troops lose 33% accuracy from their weapons but gain mobility and they're acting like their absolute mountain of heavy and special weapons can't hit flyers at all anymore.

However, I guess you will just shoot with BS 1, hitting on 6.

wuestenfux wrote:How about anti-air defense?

From my initial testing so far, air power and its counters are going to be very key. I think so far GK are going down in this department pretty badly. Daemons probably the worst at it period.

Just a random prediction on next year's tourny scene = #1 necron air force + gauss + tesla blocks of infantry with mabye a wraith in there.

IG gonna do well with lots of flyers and hydra squadrons.

SM gonna come in next with lots of new flyers in swarms

(of course this will all change as the new codexes come out, I fully expect Tau MSU to be very competitive depending on if they get some good fliers (I'm looking at you baracuda), Next eldar upgrade should see some good fliers and with their psychic powers (and very nerfed psy hoods), I can see eldar being a major power house again. It'll really come down to what hell talons will end up being though)

However, I guess you will just shoot with BS 1, hitting on 6.

How is that a problem if your 50 point tank can move 12" and shoot the S6 gun 3 times with re-rolls? A Psyback will hit once every turn, and flyers and vehicles overall aren't exactly hard to kill once you hit them.

The starting point for every GK army in 6th isn't very different to 5th. You'll take 6 units of 3 naked Henchmen in Psybacks, for a total of 372 points. If you have some points later you can give them bolters or something. You'll support those with 15 Purifiers with 6 Psycannons in 3 Psybacks, for a total of 570 points. Then you take your 3 standard Psyriflemen, of course Coteaz, and you're still at only ~1350 points and you already got a blistering amount of firepower. You'll then take Aegis Defence Line with a Quad Gun. Your Dreadnoughts and a lot of Razors will park behind it for 4+ (and sometimes better) cover saves, and a Purifier squad will operate the gun. Now if you're stil very afraid of enemy flyers take a couple Stormravens as your fast attack. This is a format for a tournament winner in 5th and it'll be a tournament winner in 6th.

Therion wrote:

wuestenfux wrote:How about anti-air defense?

If you don't think massing a horde of psycannons and psybolt ammunition TL heavy bolters and TL autocannons is anti-air defence, what do you think a single quad gun will do? The standard Psyback/Rifleman horde is better equipped to deal with flyers than most armies, due to high strength and the weapons being twin-linked.

I swear people are just being obtuse about this subject. Imperial Guard players with BS3 troops lose 33% accuracy from their weapons but gain mobility and they're acting like their absolute mountain of heavy and special weapons can't hit flyers at all anymore.

Twin-linked is the new black. The most extreme example is the Annihilation Barge which hits 5.33 times normally, and 3.66 times against flyers.

Why 3.66? You only hit on 6s...

Sigvatr wrote:
Why 3.66? You only hit on 6s...

Are you trying to take the piss here? You have 4 shots, you hit with 6's, every 6 is 3 hits (tesla) and every miss is re-rolled. I did the math for you.

Therion wrote:

Sigvatr wrote:
Why 3.66? You only hit on 6s...

Are you trying to take the piss here? You have 4 shots, you hit with 6's, every 6 is 3 hits (tesla) and every miss is re-rolled. I did the math for you.

Woah, no need to be so hostile all of a sudden O_o

I wasn't trying to be funny or sth., I simply wanted to politely ask for the math because I did not make it... :(

Woah, no need to be so hostile all of a sudden O_o

I apologise. It's just a bit annoying when people think that outrageously competitive armies are suddenly not worth playing because of a BS reduction against a single specific type of vehicle. People clearly haven't played any test games yet nor done the math to see what the reasonable expectation can be.

I think it should be quite easy to understand that if you only hit 6's, firstly you can always move at max speed because snap fire is no longer a disadvantage, and secondly re-rolls to hit are better than ever. Twin-link everything you can, take cover and play the mission.

Here a little quesiton : a predator tank moving flat out shoots all is weapon by snapshot or just the main weapon ????

a predator tank moving flat out shoots all is weapon by snapshot or just the main weapon ????

You need to buy the rulebook, really. A tank that moves flat out moves extra 6" in the shooting phase and will fire no weapons at all. Your Predator can however move 12" at cruising speed and snap fire all your weapons.

sudojoe wrote:

wuestenfux wrote:How about anti-air defense?

From my initial testing so far, air power and its counters are going to be very key. I think so far GK are going down in this department pretty badly. Daemons probably the worst at it period.

Just a random prediction on next year's tourny scene = #1 necron air force + gauss + tesla blocks of infantry with mabye a wraith in there.

IG gonna do well with lots of flyers and hydra squadrons.

SM gonna come in next with lots of new flyers in swarms

(of course this will all change as the new codexes come out, I fully expect Tau MSU to be very competitive depending on if they get some good fliers (I'm looking at you baracuda), Next eldar upgrade should see some good fliers and with their psychic powers (and very nerfed psy hoods), I can see eldar being a major power house again. It'll really come down to what hell talons will end up being though)

Daemons ARE anti-air defense, what are you talking about? lol. Run Fateweaver, a couple Bloodthirsters and round out with Daemon Princes. Flying circus? Yes please.

Therion wrote:

Woah, no need to be so hostile all of a sudden O_o

I apologise. It's just a bit annoying when people think that outrageously competitive armies are suddenly not worth playing because of a BS reduction against a single specific type of vehicle. People clearly haven't played any test games yet nor done the math to see what the reasonable expectation can be.

I think it should be quite easy to understand that if you only hit 6's, firstly you can always move at max speed because snap fire is no longer a disadvantage, and secondly re-rolls to hit are better than ever. Twin-link everything you can, take cover and play the mission.

Thanks

I fully agree. I caught myself thinking "Holy C'tan, flyers are almost indestructible now! Only be hit on 6? wtf!" but then did some math and realized that flyers are pretty fragile at the same time...unless they dodge and thus get a great cover save. Still, AV 11 / 12 isn't that tough and especially for us Necron players, they are still vehicles.

I do think about buying an Aegis Defense Line though, having 1 reliable AA gun for the cost of about 5 Necron Warriors does not seem to be too bad to me...unfortunately, we don't really have units that want to stay in cover. Maybe Imotekh and a few Warriors.

I don't want to be buying lots of terrain, as money is an obstacle to me, i might buy a bastion off my friend to use but I dunno, I'm not a fan of buying Terrain or using allies, I want my army to be a proper force of men!

I was thinking about maybe trading 2 Rhinos for 2 Razorbacks, As then i can keep 2 squads of 10 at the back holding objectives while the Razorback provides cover and if a few die they can embark in it till the later turns of the game, the rhino may do the job for that by keeping the strikes in there and deploying them later, but i'll test both and see what is better.

Im defo keeping the Dreadnoughts though, I've done some test rolling and they make mincemeat out of vehicles, you don't even need to penetrate now! The good thing is if I end up taking a GM i can make them troops as the FAQ says they can still hold objectives!

Thoughts on Land Raiders?

Drinkgasoline wrote:Thoughts on Land Raiders?

I'm not sure any more, i dont rate them as their main strength was to absorb glancing hits while transporting a unit, i might look elsewhere for transport.

Surely not many things can still glance them? Not sure though.

Glancing now takes off a hull point right? And once you lose all 4 you get wrecked right?

Yep, I think they are much better in 6th. Sure they get killed easier, but they are one of the few vehicles that can be assaulted out of, they have the armor(against anything but necrons) and a good selection of weaponry.

Having not played 6th yet I am wondering if hull points are going to make vehicles as fragile as we are discussing.

THen I rememered a lot of things have 2 HP's.ks
By the way is there a master table that shows HP's for all vehicles or are they in the FAQ.

Not at home right now.

Thans

Yes, they are that fragile. Just took my DoA army out to try out all the nerfs against a Tau army. The Devilfish and Hammerheads died like crazy, between thrown krak grenades, hitting vehicles on a 3+, no defensive fire, and reduced cover saves, they crumpled. Not a single one lasted beyond the shooting and assault phase that I sent a combat squad of assault marines after them.

The suits were extremely resilient, especially when I had to esat the snap fired plasma rifles and missile pods to assault them. Then there were the Broadsides.

Most things have 3 Hull Points. The table is in the back of the book along with the list of what units have what types.

In fact, vehicles with weak rear armor are very vulnerable to charging units as described by DaddyWarCrimes.

On the other hand, look at BA, if you take a wall of Predators, like 3 auto/las type and 3 Baals, you have a decent shooting force. Indeed, while in the 5th edition silencing guns via glancing hits worked very well, this will not longer work in the new edition. These tanks will fire like hell until you are able to take them down.