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Say a Blooththirster charges a blob. Can the commissars/sargents repeatidly issue challanges which the bloodthirster cannot refuse, and essentially make it impossible for him to actually get any attacks?
Or even in general, I can't see anything in the rules that stop one-man behemoths like MCs and Mephiston from being challenged into obscurity.

It seems to be legal, as nothing says that you can't.
But be warned, it will (guaranteed) kill the challenger, and cannot be harmed by anyone else in the combat.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
In fact, you won't even get the "look out, sir!" rule..

EDIT: I say "guaranteed", but there may be a lot of 1's rolled by the thirster...

I dont really follow what you mean. Surely if a Commisar challenges said Bloodthirster the 'Thirster would wipe him out in a single round of combat. You can't make another challenge if you're dead.

Only characters can issue challenges, and you can only make one per turn in each combat.

Gorechild wrote:I dont really follow what you mean. Surely if a Commisar challenges said Bloodthirster the 'Thirster would wipe him out in a single round of combat. You can't make another challenge if you're dead.

Only characters can issue challenges, and you can only make one per turn in each combat.

With IG, you can have a sarge, a commissar, supporting characters, and a HQ guy like yarrick in the same unit. Lots of challengers. But it will only realistically be able to tarpit the thirster.

Wrakkar is true. You can hold up Close combat beasts in a combat for at least 3 combat turns with sergeants in a blob. Then you can just refuse challenges with the comissair and hold the for even longer.

Gorechild wrote:I dont really follow what you mean. Surely if a Commisar challenges said Bloodthirster the 'Thirster would wipe him out in a single round of combat. You can't make another challenge if you're dead.

Only characters can issue challenges, and you can only make one per turn in each combat.

i think he means each turn issue a challenge meaning for however many sergeants and commissars you have in a blob you can limit the MC to causing only 1 wound for that many turns. (assuming a bloodthirster is a character - have not read up on them yet)

yes unfortunately is seems perfectly legal, which is why I'm probably gonna be vector striking with my tyrant instead of charging as much.

Gorechild wrote:I dont really follow what you mean. Surely if a Commisar challenges said Bloodthirster the 'Thirster would wipe him out in a single round of combat. You can't make another challenge if you're dead.

Only characters can issue challenges, and you can only make one per turn in each combat.

Bad example from me. Here's a better one.
Turn 1 - sargent challenges bloodthirster. Bloodthirster kills sargent, obviously. The blob rolls for re-rollable Ld9 with the commissar.
Turn 2 - sargent challenges bloodthirster...
Turn 3 - seethe pattern yet?
Turn 4 - out of sargents, the blob attacks as normal.
All it takes is a single round of poor rolls from the bloodthirster to add another round to that. The bloodthirster can do bugger all for at least 4 combat turns.
Maybe I'm naive, I just feel that a blodthirster charging into a mass of men should kill more than 1 man per round of combat
Even in normal squads with just the one charector, say a tactical squad or assault squad, they can hold off the MC for at least a turn with a challenge.

spongemonkee wrote:

Gorechild wrote:I dont really follow what you mean. Surely if a Commisar challenges said Bloodthirster the 'Thirster would wipe him out in a single round of combat. You can't make another challenge if you're dead.

Only characters can issue challenges, and you can only make one per turn in each combat.

i think he means each turn issue a challenge meaning for however many sergeants and commissars you have in a blob you can limit the MC to causing only 1 wound for that many turns. (assuming a bloodthirster is a character - have not read up on them yet)

yes unfortunately is seems perfectly legal, which is why I'm probably gonna be vector striking with my tyrant instead of charging as much.

Mmmm.. vector strike.. *drool*

spongemonkee wrote:

Gorechild wrote:I dont really follow what you mean. Surely if a Commisar challenges said Bloodthirster the 'Thirster would wipe him out in a single round of combat. You can't make another challenge if you're dead.

Only characters can issue challenges, and you can only make one per turn in each combat.

i think he means each turn issue a challenge meaning for however many sergeants and commissars you have in a blob you can limit the MC to causing only 1 wound for that many turns. (assuming a bloodthirster is a character - have not read up on them yet)

yes unfortunately is seems perfectly legal, which is why I'm probably gonna be vector striking with my tyrant instead of charging as much.

Yup. Looks like i'll be sticking with Lord of Change then.

Testify wrote:

Gorechild wrote:I dont really follow what you mean. Surely if a Commisar challenges said Bloodthirster the 'Thirster would wipe him out in a single round of combat. You can't make another challenge if you're dead.

Only characters can issue challenges, and you can only make one per turn in each combat.

Bad example from me. Here's a better one.
Turn 1 - sargent challenges bloodthirster. Bloodthirster kills sargent, obviously. The blob rolls for re-rollable Ld9 with the commissar.
Turn 2 - sargent challenges bloodthirster...
Turn 3 - seethe pattern yet?
Turn 4 - out of sargents, the blob attacks as normal.
All it takes is a single round of poor rolls from the bloodthirster to add another round to that. The bloodthirster can do bugger all for at least 4 combat turns.
Maybe I'm naive, I just feel that a blodthirster charging into a mass of men should kill more than 1 man per round of combat
Even in normal squads with just the one charector, say a tactical squad or assault squad, they can hold off the MC for at least a turn with a challenge.

I think the reasoning here is that the character is brave and manly enough to sacrifice himself so that others may live.

Wrakkar wrote:

Testify wrote:

Gorechild wrote:I dont really follow what you mean. Surely if a Commisar challenges said Bloodthirster the 'Thirster would wipe him out in a single round of combat. You can't make another challenge if you're dead.

Only characters can issue challenges, and you can only make one per turn in each combat.

Bad example from me. Here's a better one.
Turn 1 - sargent challenges bloodthirster. Bloodthirster kills sargent, obviously. The blob rolls for re-rollable Ld9 with the commissar.
Turn 2 - sargent challenges bloodthirster...
Turn 3 - seethe pattern yet?
Turn 4 - out of sargents, the blob attacks as normal.
All it takes is a single round of poor rolls from the bloodthirster to add another round to that. The bloodthirster can do bugger all for at least 4 combat turns.
Maybe I'm naive, I just feel that a blodthirster charging into a mass of men should kill more than 1 man per round of combat
Even in normal squads with just the one charector, say a tactical squad or assault squad, they can hold off the MC for at least a turn with a challenge.

I think the reasoning here is that the character is brave and manly enough to sacrifice himself so that others may live.

I'm not against challenges per se it's just a nerf against single model units in CC.
Also I'd like to know how exactly a single man is supposed to delay/distract a charging Deamon of Khorne

Testify wrote:

Gorechild wrote:I dont really follow what you mean. Surely if a Commisar challenges said Bloodthirster the 'Thirster would wipe him out in a single round of combat. You can't make another challenge if you're dead.

Only characters can issue challenges, and you can only make one per turn in each combat.

Bad example from me. Here's a better one.
Turn 1 - sargent challenges bloodthirster. Bloodthirster kills sargent, obviously. The blob rolls for re-rollable Ld9 with the commissar.
Turn 2 - sargent challenges bloodthirster...
Turn 3 - seethe pattern yet?
Turn 4 - out of sargents, the blob attacks as normal.
All it takes is a single round of poor rolls from the bloodthirster to add another round to that. The bloodthirster can do bugger all for at least 4 combat turns.
Maybe I'm naive, I just feel that a blodthirster charging into a mass of men should kill more than 1 man per round of combat
Even in normal squads with just the one charector, say a tactical squad or assault squad, they can hold off the MC for at least a turn with a challenge.

What you want now is 3 squads of 10 instead of 1 squad of 30. Observe:
Enemy turn 1 - MC charges your powerblob. You throw a sarge at it. Then use "our weapons are useless" (either result, you're out of combat)
IG turn 1 - Shoot it. Lots.
Enemy Turn 2 - MC charges. Same tactic. Our weapons are useless.
IG turn 2 - Shoot it. Lots.
Enemy turn 3 - MC charges. Same tactic. Our weapons are useless.
IG turn 3 - Assume that one of the three squads survived the initiative roll-off. Continue shooting it.
Enemy turn 4 - MC charges and eats the last of your men.

It's taken four GAME turns (of an average 6) for the MC to eat 150 points of men, and it wasn't locked in combat, so you could shoot it on your turn. With three rounds of "Shoot it lots" you may have even killed it.

If you think an IG blob with sergeants is bad, how about a unit of Necron Warriors with Overlord with Orb and two Crypteks spam challenging and getting back up on a 4+, possibly with reroll if they have a Chronometron.

Don't you run the risk of sweeping advances with 'Our Weapons Are Useless'?

Sorcererbob wrote:
What you want now is 3 squads of 10 instead of 1 squad of 30. Observe:
Enemy turn 1 - MC charges your powerblob. You throw a sarge at it. Then use "our weapons are useless" (either result, you're out of combat)
IG turn 1 - Shoot it. Lots.
Enemy Turn 2 - MC charges. Same tactic. Our weapons are useless.
IG turn 2 - Shoot it. Lots.
Enemy turn 3 - MC charges. Same tactic. Our weapons are useless.
IG turn 3 - Assume that one of the three squads survived the initiative roll-off. Continue shooting it.
Enemy turn 4 - MC charges and eats the last of your men.

It's taken four GAME turns (of an average 6) for the MC to eat 150 points of men, and it wasn't locked in combat, so you could shoot it on your turn. With three rounds of "Shoot it lots" you may have even killed it.

Assuming the squads had plasma guns and got "Bring it down!" off, you're probably looking at a dead MC in all likelyhood.
Point taken though, Flying Circuses do not "do" close combat


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Shandara wrote:Don't you run the risk of sweeping advances with 'Our Weapons Are Useless'?

Not really that big a deal as long as it's the back end of the enemy's turn.

Shandara wrote:Don't you run the risk of sweeping advances with 'Our Weapons Are Useless'?

That, and you can only actually use it if, you know, your weapons are useless. So as long as a Guardsman can actually hurt a Bloodthirster, and I'm pretty sure a Bloodthirster isn't T7+, they can't choose to automatically fail and run away.

Shandara wrote:Don't you run the risk of sweeping advances with 'Our Weapons Are Useless'?

Hellz yes. I run a good two/three MC list with chaos marines, and playtested this.
If I refuse the challenge, or attack with something else, I'll nearly always win combat and kill a good couple of units.
If I hit a conscript squad of 50 that has a HQ in it, and it challenges me, and I refuse, I will attack the rest of them or have them run away. Either way, the moment they try to break from combat, my 4-6 attacks (depending on MC, upgrades, and charging) suddenly kill 51 men...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Chrysis wrote:

Shandara wrote:Don't you run the risk of sweeping advances with 'Our Weapons Are Useless'?

That, and you can only actually use it if, you know, your weapons are useless. So as long as a Guardsman can actually hurt a Bloodthirster, and I'm pretty sure a Bloodthirster isn't T7+, they can't choose to automatically fail and run away.

But you can screw their Ld by killing a few, and try to make them run.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Testify wrote:

Wrakkar wrote:

Testify wrote:

Gorechild wrote:I dont really follow what you mean. Surely if a Commisar challenges said Bloodthirster the 'Thirster would wipe him out in a single round of combat. You can't make another challenge if you're dead.

Only characters can issue challenges, and you can only make one per turn in each combat.

Bad example from me. Here's a better one.
Turn 1 - sargent challenges bloodthirster. Bloodthirster kills sargent, obviously. The blob rolls for re-rollable Ld9 with the commissar.
Turn 2 - sargent challenges bloodthirster...
Turn 3 - seethe pattern yet?
Turn 4 - out of sargents, the blob attacks as normal.
All it takes is a single round of poor rolls from the bloodthirster to add another round to that. The bloodthirster can do bugger all for at least 4 combat turns.
Maybe I'm naive, I just feel that a blodthirster charging into a mass of men should kill more than 1 man per round of combat
Even in normal squads with just the one charector, say a tactical squad or assault squad, they can hold off the MC for at least a turn with a challenge.

I think the reasoning here is that the character is brave and manly enough to sacrifice himself so that others may live.

I'm not against challenges per se it's just a nerf against single model units in CC.
Also I'd like to know how exactly a single man is supposed to delay/distract a charging Deamon of Khorne

Running around in circles.

You can't kill a few if he's thrown a sacrificial Sarge at you. You'll win by 1 wound and he'll have to test at -1. Although with a Commissar he won't even care about that.

And a Bloodthirster by itself has no way to refuse a challenge. And if you attack him with something else and refuse the challenge the Bloodthirster doesn't get to fight at all.

An argument has been made that there is nothing in the Challenge rules which stops wounds inflicted on a character from overflowing to the squad.

I'm still on the fence but here's the link
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/459779.page

Wrakkar wrote:
Hellz yes. I run a good two/three MC list with chaos marines, and playtested this.
If I refuse the challenge, or attack with something else, I'll nearly always win combat and kill a good couple of units.
If I hit a conscript squad of 50 that has a HQ in it, and it challenges me, and I refuse, I will attack the rest of them or have them run away. Either way, the moment they try to break from combat, my 4-6 attacks (depending on MC, upgrades, and charging) suddenly kill 51 men...

Pretty sure single unit charectors cannot turn down challenges. Even if he did, you wouldn't be able to make any attacks.

Chrysis wrote:You can't kill a few if he's thrown a sacrificial Sarge at you. You'll win by 1 wound and he'll have to test at -1. Although with a Commissar he won't even care about that.

And a Bloodthirster by itself has no way to refuse a challenge. And if you attack him with something else and refuse the challenge the Bloodthirster doesn't get to fight at all.

If you refuse, (which you always can), It says the two characters can't attack eachother. nothing about the rest of the unit...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, wait, I'm wrong. Just re-reading now...

Wrakkar wrote:If you refuse, (which you always can),

A unit that consists of a single character cannot refuse a challenge.

Also remember the free "Get 'im Boss" re-rolls the squad produce, a bit mute in this instance as he almost never get a chance to hit back but handy when saves are allowed.

Right.. It says:
Pg 64:

"ISSUING A CHALLENGE
...Once a challenge has been made, no further challenges can be issued in that combat whilst the previous challenge is ongoing."

No multi-challenge.


Pg 64:

"ACCEPTING A CHALLENGE
...Your opponent has probably already decided which of your characters he wants to fight, but the final choice is yours."

So if the thirster charges, and challenges (for the lolz), and wants to kill yarrik, you can just throw Sgt Useless at it.

Pg 64:

"REFUSING A CHALLENGE
...If you refuse, your opponent gets to nominate one of your characters from those that could have accepted. The chosen model cannot strike blows at all this turn."

Damn, BT now has a "show up or feth off" ultimatum.

"Heroic Stand
A unit that consists of only a single character cannot refuse a challenge."

Ouch.

Pg 64:

"FIGHTING A CHALLENGE
..Wounds allocated to a character cannot be reallocated by the Look out, Sir! rule."

Honourable single combat, pplz.

will add more soon..

I'm not seeing anything that forbids multi-challanges. 1st sarge throws down the gauntlet and gets shredded, that challenge is over, so what is preventing the 2nd sarge from stepping up and repeating the process?

The lesson here seems pretty easy - don't charge unblooded enemy units possessing myriad characters that can be thrown at challenges with single character units, unless they have backup or you have some other way to soften the blob up.

"Once a challenge has been made, no further challenges can be issued in that combat whilst the previous challenge is ongoing."

combined with

"When one of the combatants in a challenge is slain, regardless of which Initiative step it is, the challenge is still considered to be ongoing until the end of the phase"

Means one challenge per phase only.

Right, I don't think anyone is this thread has ever contested that.

Portugal Jones wrote:Right, I don't think anyone is this thread has ever contested that.

Well it's all been fairly vaguely worded in various posts, so it was unclear.

Essentially the result is:

A single MC cannot refuse challenges. So to tie it up in 1v1 combat and stop it running rampant and killing a lot of your army, you challenge it every turn with a single unit of your own. This means that it can only kill a single sarge/char per turn irrelevant of how many wounds it inflicts and whether or not said unit is part of a squad. Finally, if you have enough units to do this for every turn in the game you can effectively prevent MC from doing anything with a few sacrificial soldiers.

Seems a bit unbalanced to me really.

yup yup yup. On the note of "I dont see why challenge wounds cant overflow into a unit" this is because a challgee is considered to be in bc with the challenger only. Since characters must be in bc to allocate wounds to a unit he cannot allocate wounds to them.

Do excess wounds overflow, or do they count towards the combat like in fantasy?