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I would like to know how do these work in 6th, I am starting to pull my hair out? If there are still wounds left in the wound pool but no more models in the unit in line of sight why do you lose the wounds, how come the guys in the unit out of line of sight can't be wounded? what if a blast from a frag missile scatters but still hits the intended target but part of the blast also hits an entirely different unit that is not in line of sight of the missile launcher, does the unintended target even suffer any casualties? I am guessing the one sentence that basically says treat blast wounds like regular shooting wounds answers this, but is there an explanation for such a rule? Where ever a blast lands that's who should be wounded not not someone who was not even near the template. Please some help with this.

Blasts/Large Blasts and weapons with the Barrage rule may inflict wounds on models out of LOS.

You can't kill what the firing unit cannot see, unless you have a rule that superceeds this. It's as simple as that.

erick99 wrote:Blasts/Large Blasts and weapons with the Barrage rule may inflict wounds on models out of LOS.

Doesn't this contradict what you are saying juraigmer? This is to confusing.

commissar80 wrote:

erick99 wrote:Blasts/Large Blasts and weapons with the Barrage rule may inflict wounds on models out of LOS.

Doesn't this contradict what you are saying juraigmer? This is to confusing.

Nope. Barrage is a rule that superceeds LOS limits. Blast/Large blast are also allowed to wound models that are out of LOS.

Eldar Vibrocannons, on the other hand, state in the codex they may hit models/units out of LOS. The rulebook does not allow them to wound, as they are not Blasts or Barrage.

so blast and large blast can only wound a model not in LOS if it has a special rule to do so, unlike a normal frag missile which it cant wound models without LOS. Do I have this much correct?

iirc all blast weapons may wound models out of LOS, so frag missiles would need LOS to shoot, but if it scattered to models out of LOS would still wound.

what is page 33 the 3rd paragraph from the top right referring to and 16 out of sight referring to? basically no visible models, remaining wounds are lost.

Thats a little tricky.

It really only says you can wound units out of LoS if the blast scatters out of LoS. OTherwise you resolve the hits normally.

how i interpreted blasts is you can only remove casualties that are in LOS and any extra wounds are discarded because you do not have LOS to any more guys. I could be wrong.

Blasts and large blasts "Any unsaved wounds are then allocated on the unit as for a normal shooting attack." P.33

So blasts and large blasts will kill the closest model to the firing unit as normal for other shooting.

so then what about units that are hit from a scatter and are not in LOS for example behind a wall or building, do the other wounds go away after the guys that were in LOS have been wounded or will the wounds still trickle into the rest of the unit out of LOS?

I think P.33 is clear that you follow the normal rules for shooting. so you can not kill people out of LoS, unless specifically overriden by the blast marker rules. (Which I have not found if it exists).

I'm pretty sure that the blast marker would cause hits even if its on models that are not in your LOS. The wounds would be allocated to models that you can see though.

Since you ''normally'' (barring Barrage and scattering blasts) cannot hit units outside LOS this means that any Direct Fire wounds are first allocated and saved towards the visable models via the normal wound allocation rules. exess wounds from this are lost. if the firing step involves hits from a blast that scattered outside LOS these wounds are resolved AFTER direct fire wounds have been resolved. if there are models left in LOS these wounds are resolved as per normal wound allocation, if there are no models left in LOS these wounds are allocated on the models outside LOS per the normal allocation rules (closest model, disregarding LOS in this instance). If the wounds are inflicted by a weapon with the Barrage rule these wounds are ALWAYS allocated per normal allocation but measured from the Blast Markers center, disregarding the firing unit as a source for 'closest model'.

I think it works like this:

You can generate hits from blast templates covering models out of LOS; weirdly this only applies if the blast scatters, not if you get a direct hit (see Blast special rule).

You then allocate wounds to the closest visible models until they're all dead.

If you still have unsaved wounds in the pool, but there are no more visible models, you lose those wounds.

So, if you fire at a unit, where there are 2 visible models and 3 models hiding behind a wall, and the blast scatters onto the 3 models behind the wall out of line of sight, you get 3 hits. Assume you pass all the To Wound rolls and no saves are rolled (when time to do so). Your 1st hit would kill the closest visible model, your 2nd hit would kill the next visible model, but your 3rd hit wound be lost. The 3 models, hit with the blast template, would not be able to be killed.

Sethorly wrote:I think it works like this:

You can generate hits from blast templates covering models out of LOS; weirdly this only applies if the blast scatters, not if you get a direct hit (see Blast special rule).

You then allocate wounds to the closest visible models until they're all dead.

If you still have unsaved wounds in the pool, but there are no more visible models, you lose those wounds.

So, if you fire at a unit, where there are 2 visible models and 3 models hiding behind a wall, and the blast scatters onto the 3 models behind the wall out of line of sight, you get 3 hits. Assume you pass all the To Wound rolls and no saves are rolled (when time to do so). Your 1st hit would kill the closest visible model, your 2nd hit would kill the next visible model, but your 3rd hit wound be lost. The 3 models, hit with the blast template, would not be able to be killed.

This is the way I feel it works as well but does not seem right if a missle shot scatters on a seperate unit that's not in line of sight then no wounds can be allocated to the unit, does not seem right the unit just got hit with a missle but are still alive because they just was not visible.

commissar80 wrote:

Sethorly wrote:I think it works like this:

You can generate hits from blast templates covering models out of LOS; weirdly this only applies if the blast scatters, not if you get a direct hit (see Blast special rule).

You then allocate wounds to the closest visible models until they're all dead.

If you still have unsaved wounds in the pool, but there are no more visible models, you lose those wounds.

So, if you fire at a unit, where there are 2 visible models and 3 models hiding behind a wall, and the blast scatters onto the 3 models behind the wall out of line of sight, you get 3 hits. Assume you pass all the To Wound rolls and no saves are rolled (when time to do so). Your 1st hit would kill the closest visible model, your 2nd hit would kill the next visible model, but your 3rd hit wound be lost. The 3 models, hit with the blast template, would not be able to be killed.

This is the way I feel it works as well but does not seem right if a missle shot scatters on a seperate unit that's not in line of sight then no wounds can be allocated to the unit, does not seem right the unit just got hit with a missle but are still alive because they just was not visible.

Unfortunately that's how it is. I think Sethorly got it right, except that models are always hit even if it doesn't scatter. The wounds are only applied to models that are visible.

I'm not seeing a problem with this rule. It clearly states blast markers may hit and wound models that are out of line of sight.

UltraPrime wrote:I'm not seeing a problem with this rule. It clearly states blast markers may hit and wound models that are out of line of sight.

^ I just read it again. 100 percent correct.

Page 33 states that a blast may scatter outside of the max range or out of line of sight and these models are ht normally. Roll to wound and save as normal. Unsaved wounds are allocated for a normal shooting attack.

This means that for blasts and large blasts the closest models die first.

If the weapon has the barrage special rule you start from the center of the blast and move out since the shot is seen as coming from the center hole for cover and as the origin for the shooting attack for wound allocation. The Barrage rules on page 34 clarify this:

Pg 34 Second bullet point: When determining Wound allocation always assume the shot is coming from the centre of the blast marker, instead of the firing model.

For barrage You can wound models out of line of sight but for regular blasts and large blasts you cannot. You can hit models out of line of sight but you cannot allocate wounds to them like Barrage allows you to do.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

UltraPrime wrote:I'm not seeing a problem with this rule. It clearly states blast markers may hit and wound models that are out of line of sight.

You can hit and wound but you cannot allocate wounds from the wound pool to models out of line of sight - which means you cannot kill them. Unless the weapon is a barrage weapon which has a different origin point.

Upon reflection I agree with red comet above that hits can be generated from out-of-sight models even if the blast template does not scatter.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Hmm actually blasts can kill models out of line of sight if your opponent uses Look Out Sir.

Otherwise, the Blast special rule influences the "determine hits" and "determine wounds" parts of the shooting phase, but then normal rules take over and you're back to allocating wounds from the wound pool to closest models in turn, taking approriate saving throws, with wounds not being able to be allocated to out of sight models.

The Blast rule says that models can be hit and wounded even if they are out of Line of Sight. This was clearly mentioned as a way to say that model can still die even if the unit has no line of sight to it. I don't see why you wouldn't be allowed to allocate wounds to them when the rule says you ignore line of sight...

Red Comet wrote:I don't see why you wouldn't be allowed to allocate wounds to them when the rule says you ignore line of sight...

Because the Blast special rule says "Once the number of hits inflicted on the unit has been worked out, roll To Wound and save as normal." This takes us up to the "Allocate Unsaved Wounds and Remove Casualties" section of p15.

Next the Blast special rule says "Any unsaved Wounds are then allocated on the unit as for a normal shooting attack." This allocation, on pp15-16, includes the "Out of Sight" rules.

I hope I'm wrong, I'm interested in this because I heavily use GK Large Blast Psykers.

Sethorly wrote:

Red Comet wrote:I don't see why you wouldn't be allowed to allocate wounds to them when the rule says you ignore line of sight...

Because the Blast special rule says "Once the number of hits inflicted on the unit has been worked out, roll To Wound and save as normal." This takes us up to the "Allocate Unsaved Wounds and Remove Casualties" section of p15.

Next the Blast special rule says "Any unsaved Wounds are then allocated on the unit as for a normal shooting attack." This allocation, on pp15-16, includes the "Out of Sight" rules.

I hope I'm wrong, I'm interested in this because I heavily use GK Large Blast Psykers.

I'm pretty sure the intention was to have it for models to be hit even if they are not in LOS. It doesn't make sense for Hits and Wounds not to work the same way as they have before since Blasts since you ignore Line of Sight. So if you ignore Line of Sight ignore it in the relevant places it shows up. That seems pretty clear to me. I don't understand why blasts would exist if there wasn't an inherent danger to harming other models nearby that your unit cannot see.

Red Comet wrote:

Sethorly wrote:

Red Comet wrote:I don't see why you wouldn't be allowed to allocate wounds to them when the rule says you ignore line of sight...

Because the Blast special rule says "Once the number of hits inflicted on the unit has been worked out, roll To Wound and save as normal." This takes us up to the "Allocate Unsaved Wounds and Remove Casualties" section of p15.

Next the Blast special rule says "Any unsaved Wounds are then allocated on the unit as for a normal shooting attack." This allocation, on pp15-16, includes the "Out of Sight" rules.

I hope I'm wrong, I'm interested in this because I heavily use GK Large Blast Psykers.

I'm pretty sure the intention was to have it for models to be hit even if they are not in LOS. It doesn't make sense for Hits and Wounds not to work the same way as they have before since Blasts since you ignore Line of Sight. So if you ignore Line of Sight ignore it in the relevant places it shows up. That seems pretty clear to me. I don't understand why blasts would exist if there wasn't an inherent danger to harming other models nearby that your unit cannot see.

Blasts do not ignore line of sight. Barrage weapons do. Blasts may ricochet but you cannot fire them unless you have line of sight and are in range of the weapon.

Barrage allows you to fire out of line of sight and the point of origin for the shot is determined to be the center hole. Thus we determine hits and wounds from the center of the blast marker.

Normal blasts can score hits that are outside of line of sight or range if they scatter but only if they scatter. These hits are then tallied into the wounds. These wounds are then feed into wound allocation groups starting with the closest to the point of origin. For normal weapons and blasts this is the firing squad. For Barrage weapons this is the center hole of the blast marker. Once all wound groups are completed no more models are removed or if all wound groups are removed and you are only left with models out of sight then you have no more wound groups that are capable of accepting wounds and therefore lose the rest of the wounds.

For barrage weapons each blast marker is sorted out individually (in the case of multiple blasts). Only models under the blast can be hit. Only models under the blast can be wounded (not including look out sir).

Where does it state that blasts cannot wound models outside of the LOS of the unit firing the Blast Weapon?

Edit: NVM I just re read it. I get it now.

The real problem is what happens if the blast scatters into a unit that is completely out of los from the firing unit? This is one of those things that need to be FAQ'd and as it is has laready been submitted to INAT.

Happyjew wrote:The real problem is what happens if the blast scatters into a unit that is completely out of los from the firing unit? This is one of those things that need to be FAQ'd and as it is has laready been submitted to INAT.

good call. That I have no idea. By RAW technically it causes hits but there are no wound groups that can have wounds allocated to them.

It specifies that units that are out of LOS and range can be hit then it just says to follow the wounding process as normal.