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Does the icarus cannon or the quad gun have to go on the roof as per the picture in the BRB? As far as i can tell there are no restrictions as to where you can place it during set up. Thanks

Droober wrote:Does the icarus cannon or the quad gun have to go on the roof as per the picture in the BRB? As far as i can tell there are no restrictions as to where you can place it during set up. Thanks

There is also no permission to place it anywhere else.

So where would you propose to place it? Standing next to the Bastion? On the other side of the table?

Again, there's no permission given to do that, so you're basically standing on 'the rules don't say I can't' platform which can always be countered by your opponent saying that the rules don't tell him that he can't pick the gun back up and put back on the Bastion's roof...and then you both continue doing that for the rest of eternity.


Given that there are no rules giving permission for you to place the Gun Emplacement anywhere else, I'd say going by the location visually given for the weapon in the rulebook is your only choice unless you and your opponent agree otherwise, because any other choice is unsupportable by the rules.

Thats not sound reasoning Yak. It doesn't say where to place it, just like with the Aegis Defense Line purchased weapons.

So you can place it where ever you want following the normal rules for fortifications.

For it to be limited to the roof, it would have to say "you place the purchased weapon on the roof"

Otherwise, there is no limitation.

yakface wrote:

Droober wrote:Does the icarus cannon or the quad gun have to go on the roof as per the picture in the BRB? As far as i can tell there are no restrictions as to where you can place it during set up. Thanks

Given that there are no rules giving permission for you to place the Gun Emplacement anywhere else, I'd say going by the location visually given for the weapon in the rulebook is your only choice unless you and your opponent agree otherwise, because any other choice is unsupportable by the rules.

I hate to disagree, but that is a suspect interpretation on few levels.

To start there is also the glaring issue of the picture on pg 116. The optional Gun Emplacement is on the roof of the bastion in the picture, but the comms relay is not. If what you were saying was true then both the comms relay and the gun emplacement would have to be on the roof. They are both options and both battle field debris. Why can one do it, but not the other?

Also it is supported by the rules . Pg114 under Composition "This tells you what terrain pieces the fortification consists of...others consist of several different terrain pieces"

That establishes that a single fortification can consist of more than one terrain piece. If the pieces need to be placed in coherency this section specifies what parts have to touch. There is no requirement that gun emplacements or coms relays be in contact with any of the other pieces.

Pg 120 covers the deployment of Fortifications.The only limits on placing a Fortification is that it "must be set up wholly within the owning player's table half and not closer than 3" of another fortification."

I agree with Yakface. When I buy a storm bolter for a Land Raider, I don't assume it can go on a model using the Land Raider. Or if an Ork player buys a deffeolla, I don't think he assumes he can put it on a trukk.

Let's see how the OP is trying to break the game... where do you think you can put the gun?

Personally I believe you can place the gun anywhere in your half of the table, per page 120.

A gun emplacement isn't a part of the bastion. It's a seperate model with its own statline.
It does say on page 114 that a fortification can consist of several different terrain pieces.
I don't see anything suggesting they have to be anywhere near each other.

Arson Fire wrote:A gun emplacement isn't a part of the bastion. It's a seperate model with its own statline.
It does say on page 114 that a fortification can consist of several different terrain pieces.
I don't see anything suggesting they have to be anywhere near each other.

Yet it is a part of the bastion because of the Options wording:

"Options. This section lists any additional weapons, wargear or upgrades the fortification can have" P.114

The fortification can have a Quad gun. This means the Quad gun needs to be a part of the Fortification.

Alright. So the fortification can have its quad gun, and have it sitting on the other end of the table.

There is still nothing suggesting they have to be in contact with each other.

Arson Fire wrote:Alright. So the fortification can have its quad gun, and have it sitting on the other end of the table.

There is still nothing suggesting they have to be in contact with each other.

So again, if I buy a deffrolla, where does it mandate that I need to attach it to the battlewagon?

It doesn't, and you don't.

The deffrolla is an upgrade to your battlewagon. You may model your battlewagon to show it has a deffrolla, but you don't really have to. So long as it's accounted for in your army list it doesn't really matter whether it's represented on the model or not. The rules for it are still applied to the battlewagon.

However that is a different thing altogether.
Unlike the deffrolla/battlewagon, a gun emplacement is a seperate model from the fortification it was bought with. It's not a unit so it doesn't have to stay in coherency. It's a seperate terrain piece, with no restrictions on where it is placed in relation to the terrain piece it was bought with (other than the rules for setting up fortifications on p120).

So the quad gun is not an upgrade, but a separate entity? Can I buy it apart from the bastion? Much the same as I can buy a deffrolla without a battlewagon?

Please stop trying to break the game...

Of course it's a seperate model, as defined in the Gun Emplacement rules on p105.
However it requires you to first take an Aegis defence line or Bastion in order to take one.

Out of curiosity, how do you think it is required to be positioned when taken with an Aegis defence line?
There is no convenient roof for it to sit on then.

For the Aegis line I thought all parts of the fortification had to be in contact with at least one other part. Would this not include the emplacement (if taken)?

SoloFalcon1138 wrote:So the quad gun is not an upgrade, but a separate entity? Can I buy it apart from the bastion? Much the same as I can buy a deffrolla without a battlewagon?

Please stop trying to break the game...

There are a few problems with your example:
1) The big difference between the deffrolla and a bastion is that one is a vehicle and the other is a piece of terrain.
2) It is not an upgrade it is an option. Just like adding another model to a squad is an option. Unless your saying that I have to place all my termigaunts from the 10th one on on top of the other ones.
3) If I read it the same way you do then the Aegis Defence Line can never use a gun emplacement. It has now way to attach it to itself.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Flinty wrote:For the Aegis line I thought all parts of the fortification had to be in contact with at least one other part. Would this not include the emplacement (if taken)?

Each section of the line has to be in BtB with at least one other part. I have yet to see a picture with the gun touching the line. Even the one in the rule book has it in the center and not touching.

Flinty wrote:For the Aegis line I thought all parts of the fortification had to be in contact with at least one other part. Would this not include the emplacement (if taken)?

Composition: Up to 4 long and 4 short Aegis defence line sections.
Each section of Aegis defence line must be placed in base contact with at least one other section.

A gun emplacement is not a defence line section.

Fair enough.

May I make one observation? If you look at page 116 the picture of the Imperial Bastion, does not have a gun emplacement. However, it does have a Comms Relay, not on the bastion but next to it on the same base thing-y that the quad-gun is on for the ADL.

It has to go with the Fortification.

"Weapons. If your fortification has weapons as part of its basic composition, they will be listed here. Note that many fortifications can purchase extra weapons at additional cost." P.114

"Options. This section lists any additional weapons, wargear or upgrades the fortification can have" P.114

Weapons are a part of the composition of the fortification so they must be attached to the Fortification. It also says the options are "upgrades the fortification can have" so putting it somewhere else is not the fortifications upgrade.

DeathReaper wrote:It has to go with the Fortification.

"Weapons. If your fortification has weapons as part of its basic composition, they will be listed here. Note that many fortifications can purchase extra weapons at additional cost." P.114

"Options. This section lists any additional weapons, wargear or upgrades the fortification can have" P.114

Weapons are a part of the composition of the fortification so they must be attached to the Fortification. It also says the options are "upgrades the fortification can have" so putting it somewhere else is not the fortifications upgrade.

Not arguing that they are part of the Composition. However the Composition section also lists the what parts of the Fortification must be touching. For example the ADL sections must be touching and the FoR parts must be touching.

So permissive rule set:
I place my Fortifications before Terrain is placed on the board.

With the following restrictions:
1) They must be placed completly on my 1/2 of the board.
2) They must be more than 3" away from anouther Fortification.
3) They must follow the rules set in the Composition section. (as I listed above).

So as long as my Gun Emplacement is totally within my 1/2 of the board and it is more than 3" from anouther Fortification I can place it where I want. Unless you can find a rule that places the addtional restriction of "Must be placed" for the Gun Emplacement.

And a question becasue I am courious as to your take on it: Where do you place the Gun Emplacement you buy with the ADL? It can not be placed on the line. Do you require it to be touching a part of the wall? And if so is that picture of the ADL in the Fortification section just a picture and not showing how a line can be built?

"upgrades the fortification can have"

If it is not a part of the fortification then the fortification does not have that upgrade.

DeathReaper wrote: "upgrades the fortification can have"

If it is not a part of the fortification then the fortification does not have that upgrade.

Again not argueing it is part of the Fortification. I am asking where the restriction on placement is in the rules that removes my ability to place parts of my Fortification where ever I want. I could scatter my ADL all over the table or scatter the parts of a FoR all over the table if it was not restricted in the Compositions section.

As it is now there are people who still scatter the ADL all over the table. They just have it in 2 wall sections. The rules state that each wall peice must be touching anouther wall piece, not that all the wall peices must be placed in one contiguous line.

Unless you think that is wrong too. (I still haven't made up my mind on that, but per RAW they can for right now.)

Permissive ruleset tells us we need permission to separate the Gun from the Fortification since it is bought as one unit.

Please find me that permission.

Where does it say they arn't seperate entities that can be placed seperatly?

A Quad-gun is a Gun Emplacement. Gun Emplacements are their own model that has its own seperate statline.

You buy a bastion, it comes with an option to buy an additional fortitfication, which is separate, i.e. a gun emplacement.

The game does not provide any rules for 'units' of fortifications, but it does say that any fortifications need to be 3" distant from other fortifications.

It's not one model either, since you have 2 separate models.

I would argue you prohibited from putting the gun ON the bastion.

DeathReaper wrote: "upgrades the fortification can have"

If it is not a part of the fortification then the fortification does not have that upgrade.

Then where do you posit the Quad gun for an Aegis defense line goes?

The Gun is not a part of the line, and the whole of the line is not, itself, an area terrain peice; so.....


The Image of the Bastion shows the Comms relay as a separate structure as well, and No permission is ever actually granted to allow/require the Gun Emplacement(a specific piece of a specific type of terrain) to be placed on top of the Bastion.


The Permissive rule-set card cannot be played on this hand because no permission is granted to place the gun on the Bastion, and no restriction is given for it's placement anywhere else.

The closest thing to any indication for where it could go is pages 114(Composition; explaining that they can be multiple pieces of terrain) and Page 120(Set up Fortifications; explaining that your fortifications count against the terrain density for the 2'x2' area that the majority of them are within).

So we have that the whole of a fortification counts as 1 terrain piece for Density; and that only separate "Pieces" for density abide by the "Must be 3" apart" rule(again page 120, bullet #3; which tells us a single terrain "Piece" could be up to 3 smaller pieces, and that each counted "Piece" are what abides the 3" limit).

Yeah; wherever you want to put the Gun Emplacement is valid, so long as it is at least 3" away from any other terrain piece aside from the parent fortification that purchased it.

DeathReaper wrote:Permissive ruleset tells us we need permission to separate the Gun from the Fortification since it is bought as one unit.
Please find me that permission.

You're plain wrong. Fortications are not units (Pg 109: "Unlike units, fortifications are not found on codexes.") This renders your whole argument null and void.
Also, your argument would also mean that the example setup of Aegis Defence Line (page 114) would be illegal.

Because Fortifications are not units, they follow rules for placing fortifications (page 120). Permissive ruleset tells us that you, DR, must find specific rule that tells us that fortifications and it's Battlefield Debris must be placed in contact with each other.

"upgrades the fortification can have"

The gun is an upgrade to the Fortification.

This tells us the gun goes with the fortification.

Another question: is the top of the bastion a battlement? So that whoever is firing the quad gun can be shot at? Or is it an inherent part of the building? So you can have one unit on the battlement at the top, and you have to have another unit inside to man the heavy bolters?

Ludovic wrote:Another question: is the top of the bastion a battlement? So that whoever is firing the quad gun can be shot at? Or is it an inherent part of the building? So you can have one unit on the battlement at the top, and you have to have another unit inside to man the heavy bolters?

Tale a look at the battlement rules on P.95, and Multiple part building on P.92