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Hey folks, decided to make a poll out of this issue, since it was fairly evenly debated last time. How do Feel No Pain, Instant Death, and Eternal Warrior interact? Original thread with various arguments here: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/460734.page

A) Eternal Warrior completely ignores the wound, so Feel No Pain can still be taken. After all, it does "ignore the effects of Instant Death".

B) Instant Death always negates Feel No Pain. After all, Feel No Pain is not allowed against wounds that inflict Instant Death.

C) Explain how you think it should work!

To clarify before I vote, do you want strict RAW, or how people would play the situation?

Eternal Warrior
A model with this special rule is immune to the effects of instant death

Feel no pain
Feel no pain rolls cannot be made against unsaved wounds that inflict instant death.

Thats right from the codex. So RAW, your IC that has Eternal Warrior is immune to the effects of instant death (being death instantly), but FNP states it cannot be used against wounds that are made by sources that inflict instant death.

So your IC ignores the deathy part, but FNP is still made in relation to the source... EW does not pass its immunity on to FNP.

B

hazal wrote:Eternal Warrior
A model with this special rule is immune to the effects of instant death

Feel no pain
Feel no pain rolls cannot be made against unsaved wounds that inflict instant death.

Thats right from the codex. So RAW, your IC that has Eternal Warrior is immune to the effects of instant death (being death instantly), but FNP states it cannot be used against wounds that are made by sources that inflict instant death.

So your IC ignores the deathy part, but FNP is still made in relation to the source... EW does not pass its immunity on to FNP.

B

I have the opposite interpretation. You inflict an unsaved wound. Check to see if the wound would cause instant death. Eternal Warrior says the wound 0does not cause instant death. Therefore, FNP can be taken as the unsaved wound did not cause instant death.

As above.

Instant Death can't be inflicted on an Eternal Warrior, therefore the negation of FnP is impossable.

Good point... I reverse my decision untill a FAQ changes it

I say that FNP is actually negated.

I say this because Eternal Warrior states that the "Effects" of instant death are negated, not that the Instant Death rule does not apply to the unit.

I say the "effect" of instant death is removing all wounds. Eternal warrior keeps this from happening with the model losing only one wound. But, the instant death rule still applies it just doesn't cause multiple wounds. Because the attack is still an instant death one it has negated any FNP.

As I see it:

A model with EW and FNP gets to make the FNP roll against non-ID wounds. The model doesn't get to make FNP rolls against ID wounds, even though the models is immune to its effects and will suffer 'normal' wounds.

When FNP is pitted against special ID rules that also trigger upon 'unsaved wounds' (Force, Boneswords, etc.), the Exceptions rule on page 9 is used.

Tidy, simple and intuitive IMO. Maybe GW will explain things differently in a FAQ/errata, but until then...this is my group's RAW/RAI/GAP.

If you're immune to instant death, you get a FNP. It's a no-brainer imo.

I have the opposite interpretation. You inflict an unsaved wound. Check to see if the wound would cause instant death. Eternal Warrior says the wound 0does not cause instant death. Therefore, FNP can be taken as the unsaved wound did not cause instant death.

False. Eternal Warrior says the wound causes ID and you simply ignore it. The weapon still caused ID, you don't have to suffer the consequences of it if you fail the save, but EW does not say it takes away the weapons ability to inflict ID. There is a huge gaping hole between the two.

Eternal Warrior states that it "ignores the effects of Instant Death"

One of the "effects" of instant death is the ability to ignore FNP

ergo Eternal warriors with fnp always get it

Captain Antivas wrote:

I have the opposite interpretation. You inflict an unsaved wound. Check to see if the wound would cause instant death. Eternal Warrior says the wound 0does not cause instant death. Therefore, FNP can be taken as the unsaved wound did not cause instant death.

False. Eternal Warrior says the wound causes ID and you simply ignore it. The weapon still caused ID, you don't have to suffer the consequences of it if you fail the save, but EW does not say it takes away the weapons ability to inflict ID. There is a huge gaping hole between the two.

EW says you ignore the effects of instant death. An effect of instant death is that it removes your ability to roll FNP. Since EW negates all effects of instant death, it still allows you to take a FNP roll if you have EW.

False. FNP cannot be taken against weapons that inflict ID. The only effect of ID is the model is reduced to 0 wounds and removed as a casualty. The weapon inflicts ID, the model ignores it, but it is still there. ID gets put in the corner but it is still present.

Captain Antivas wrote:False. FNP cannot be taken against weapons that inflict ID. The only effect of ID is the model is reduced to 0 wounds and removed as a casualty. The weapon inflicts ID, the model ignores it, but it is still there. ID gets put in the corner but it is still present.

Need to edit my earlier post but here are the relevent quotes:

Eternal Warrior (page 35) "A model with this special rule is immune to the effects of instant death."

Feel No Pain (page 35) "Note that Feel No Pain rolls cannot be made against unsaved wounds that inflict Instant Death."

Models with Eternal Warrior are immune to instant death. Since the model is immune, it cannot suffer unsaved wounds that would cause inflict instant death. Since the unsaved wound never inflicts instant death, the model may still take FNP saves.

But that is just it, he is immune to the effects.

The unsaved wound still inflicts instant death, but the model with EW is not reduced to 0 wounds because of it. (Being reduced to 0 wounds is an effect of ID. Ignoring FNP is not).

Ignoring FNP is not an effect of ID, it is a restriction in the FNP rule.

False again. The weapon inflicted ID the model simply ignored it. The model still suffered an unsaved wound from a weapon that inflicts ID.

Edit:ninja'd. False again is not directed at Death Reaper but the guy before.

ID has two effects.
1. Reduces Wounds to 0.
2. Removes the model as a casualty.

EW, ignores these effects.

Not being able to use FNP is a restriction on FNP. Not an effect of ID.

Captain Antivas wrote:False again. The weapon inflicted ID the model simply ignored it. The model still suffered an unsaved wound from a weapon that inflicts ID.

Edit:ninja'd. False again is not directed at Death Reaper but the guy before.

And I believe you are wrong. My interpretation hinges on the word "inflict" and "immune". Instant Death is never inflicted when a model has Eternal Warrior. Since ID is never inflicted because of the immunity, the model may still roll FNP. Being immune to the effects of instant death means being immune to (1) having your wounds reduced to 0, (2) being removed as a casualty, and (3) having FNP saves stripped away because the unsaved wound did not inflict instant death.

Where in the rule does it mention FNP? I'll wait.

Oh, it doesn't? Ok. Then it is not an effect of ID. Therefore it is not ignored by EW. Like I said, ID is inflicted by a certain set of rules that EW does not modify. Ignoring the end result does not negate the trip you had to take to get there.

Captain Antivas wrote:Where in the rule does it mention FNP? I'll wait.

Oh, it doesn't? Ok. Then it is not an effect of ID. Therefore it is not ignored by EW. Like I said, ID is inflicted by a certain set of rules that EW does not modify. Ignoring the end result does not negate the trip you had to take to get there.

One, there is no need for you to be rude or condescending.

Two, the ID rule does not have to mention FNP. FNP specifically says it is negated by wounds that inflict instant death. Where does it say that weapon that would normally inflict ID still does so against a model with EW? It doesn't. The unsaved wounds never inflicted instant death because of the EW rule. You cannot selectively read ID and EW and then attempt to apply them to FNP when a model has all rules applying to it at once. The best you can do is look at all three rules holistically and attempt to make a logical interpretation.

Your argument is ID trumps FNP, EW trumps ID and both FNP and EWP are compared individually to ID.

My argument is EW prevents ID from being inflicted, which means that ID has not occurred when you go to check FNP. Both arguments can be supported by the rules based on the order you resolve them in and how you compare them to each other.

My reading is the following.

A) A wound is caused.mMake armour saves, if failed go to step B.
B) If wound causes instant death go to step D, if not go to C.
C) Attempt FNP roll, if failed remove wound. If no wounds remain go to D.
D) Remove model.

When you come to step C if something ignores the effects of instant death ie: all ramifications of a wound that would cause instant death. Then the wound cannot be said to inflict instant death.
As such the clause in FNP is not invoked and you may make your save as normal.

PanzerLeader wrote:

hazal wrote:Eternal Warrior
A model with this special rule is immune to the effects of instant death

Feel no pain
Feel no pain rolls cannot be made against unsaved wounds that inflict instant death.

Thats right from the codex. So RAW, your IC that has Eternal Warrior is immune to the effects of instant death (being death instantly), but FNP states it cannot be used against wounds that are made by sources that inflict instant death.

So your IC ignores the deathy part, but FNP is still made in relation to the source... EW does not pass its immunity on to FNP.

B

I have the opposite interpretation. You inflict an unsaved wound. Check to see if the wound would cause instant death. Eternal Warrior says the wound 0does not cause instant death. Therefore, FNP can be taken as the unsaved wound did not cause instant death.

I have to give PanzerLeader a +1 as this is also how I see this playing out. A model with Eternal Warrior can not be instantly killed, so should always be able to make a feel no pain roll because the only way to counter feel no paint is with a wound that would cause instant death.

But the wound does cause ID. the model with EW just ignores the effects of being dropped to 0 wounds and removed as a casualty.

The Wound still Inflicts ID, but the model does not suffer any adverse effects.

PanzerLeader wrote:Instant Death is never inflicted when a model has Eternal Warrior.

This is not correct. Being immune to the effects of something does not mean that something never happened. Using your logic the model would have not been wounded at all. Is that the case?

PanzerLeader wrote:

Captain Antivas wrote:Where in the rule does it mention FNP? I'll wait.

Oh, it doesn't? Ok. Then it is not an effect of ID. Therefore it is not ignored by EW. Like I said, ID is inflicted by a certain set of rules that EW does not modify. Ignoring the end result does not negate the trip you had to take to get there.

One, there is no need for you to be rude or condescending.

Two, the ID rule does not have to mention FNP. FNP specifically says it is negated by wounds that inflict instant death. Where does it say that weapon that would normally inflict ID still does so against a model with EW? It doesn't. The unsaved wounds never inflicted instant death because of the EW rule. You cannot selectively read ID and EW and then attempt to apply them to FNP when a model has all rules applying to it at once. The best you can do is look at all three rules holistically and attempt to make a logical interpretation.

Your argument is ID trumps FNP, EW trumps ID and both FNP and EWP are compared individually to ID.

My argument is EW prevents ID from being inflicted, which means that ID has not occurred when you go to check FNP. Both arguments can be supported by the rules based on the order you resolve them in and how you compare them to each other.

My most sincere apologies if you interpreted what I said as being condescending, but that was not the intention. It was intended to make a point. The point being that you cannot claim something to be an effect of something else unless it specifically says it is.

I personally don't see what was rude or condescending but i will make sure to be more careful around you. (no sarcasm intended, being 100% truthful)

The problem is that your interpretation is not supported by the rules. EW and FNP are two separate rules, neither of which modify ID. EW ignores, not changes, the effects of ID. The effects of the ID rule are the same, we just ignore them. The ID rule says a weapon with this special rule and weapons that are double the model's toughness inflict ID. EW does not take away either condition, therefore the argument that ID is not inflicted is wrong as the rule for ID is still present and applies. Khan hits a Nurgle Daemon and wounds with a 6. His weapon inflicts ID. Being an EW does not change that. The weapon inflicts ID, even though the Daemon can ignore its effects. The only effect being reducing the model to 0 wounds (technically being removed as a casualty is an effect of being reduced to 0 wounds, but thats not really that big a deal). ID is a restriction placed on FNP not an effect.

Panzer, if I may semi-quote rigeld from previous threads:

There is a law that says if you poison someone you go to jail.
You poison Bob.
Bob does not suffer any effects from the Poison.
You still poisoned Bob, you still go to jail.

Also I do realise that bringing real world examples is not a good idea, I just like rigelds logic in this case.

Happy: I may be stupid but how does that impact this one?
I understand that example would be perfect for any intent based rules but not this one.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
the word that my interpretation hinges on is "inflicts" does an unsaved wound with instant death, where instant death is ignored inflict an unsaved wound with instant death. I think not but YMMV.

I think some people have an odd definition of 'inflict.' It seems silly to me to say that instant death has been inflicted, when the model does not die.

My interpretation is that you cannot inflict instant death upon an Eternal Warrior, so FNP works.

But this whole thing hinges on definition of word 'inflict', so there is no definite answer.

Ghaz wrote:

PanzerLeader wrote:Instant Death is never inflicted when a model has Eternal Warrior.

This is not correct. Being immune to the effects of something does not mean that something never happened. Using your logic the model would have not been wounded at all. Is that the case?

This, amongst others on this side, is the correct parsing of the two rules.


Ignoring the effects of one rule does not mean you get to ignore the restrictions on the other rule. ID is a restriction on FNP, it is not something that is ignrored by EW.

In the case of an undefined term, we use the common english definition. from Websters Dictionary http://machaut.uchicago.edu/?resource=Webster%27s&word=inflict&use1913=on&use1828=on

In*flict" (?), v. t. [imp. & p. p. Inflicted; p. pr. & vb. n. Inflicting.] [L. inflictus, p.p. of infligere to strike on, to inflict; pref. in- in, on + fligere to strike. Cf. Flail.] To give, cause, or produce by striking, or as if by striking; to apply forcibly; to lay or impose; to send; to cause to bear, feel, or suffer; as, to inflict blows; to inflict a wound with a dagger; to inflict severe pain by ingratitude; to inflict punishment on an offender; to inflict the penalty of death on a criminal.

By this definition, ID cannot be inflicted upon Eternal Warrior. Therefor, FnP cannot be denied.