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I have been looking at the Hexrifle, and can some other people look at it and tell me how it works?

The language says that after a wound you take a toughness test, and if you fail you are removed from play with no saves of any kind allowed.

However, if you have already taken a unsaved wound, then you have already made your saves... so how can you get no saves of any kind?

Do you roll to wound, do you immediately roll the toughness test? If so, I guess you could do that, then get no saves.

Do you get FNP to it? Is FNP a save?

To any responders, please review the codex entry before responding from your "gut". I'm looking for a logical

I dont have the rule book but from the way you described it I think it works as such:

Roll to hit
Roll to wound
Make saves (armor, inv, cover, fnp, LOS)
If failed take a T test
If failed remove from play. Nothing can save you at this point!

Assuming you are shooting at a one model unit:

Roll to hit.
Roll to wound.
Save (if available)
You have now taken an unsaved wound.
Roll a toughness test.
If you fail, you are removed from play regardless of remaning wounds.

The saves bit is just to say you don't get a save against the additional effects.

The FNP goes off after you get the unsaved wound and if you pass it, the other effects don't occur.

Ok, that is what I thought. It's crap then.

Its a ranged version of a husk blade basicaly.

The rules state that the active player decides which goes first when to rules are activated at the same time. So in my turn I will make the hexrifles roll go before FnP, and in your turn you can make it go the other way, so it is less efficient if it hits during overwatch.

Prodigalson wrote:
To any responders, please review the codex entry before responding from your "gut". I'm looking for a logical

And just to clarify, for an unsaved wound the model must take a characteristic test based on its wounds value, not toughness.

And since it's a sniper weapon, the target's toughness doesn't matter at all.

megatrons2nd wrote:The rules state that the active player decides which goes first when to rules are activated at the same time. So in my turn I will make the hexrifles roll go before FnP, and in your turn you can make it go the other way, so it is less efficient if it hits during overwatch.

Really? FnP isn't a save, so, even if you pass FnP you still took an unsaved wound? Then, you still need to pass the toughness test?

jcress410 wrote:

megatrons2nd wrote:The rules state that the active player decides which goes first when to rules are activated at the same time. So in my turn I will make the hexrifles roll go before FnP, and in your turn you can make it go the other way, so it is less efficient if it hits during overwatch.

Really? FnP isn't a save, so, even if you pass FnP you still took an unsaved wound? Then, you still need to pass the toughness test?

No, it's as has been detailed above.

The hexrifle is fired at you. (by you i mean your model)
You get hit.
You take a wound.
You attempt to save. If you make the save that's it.
If you fail, you have taken an unsaved wound.
If you have FNP you roll for it.
If you pass, there was no wound, it is discounted, like it never happened.
If you fail, you take the wound as normal, so you have an unsaved wound.
You must take a characteristic test against your wound profile.
If you pass, you just take the wound.
If you fail, you are removed from play. Period.

I thought the test was a Toughness test. I could be wrong though as I'm away from the books at the moment.

It is wounds. Page 61, C: DE.

megatrons2nd wrote:The rules state that the active player decides which goes first when to rules are activated at the same time. So in my turn I will make the hexrifles roll go before FnP, and in your turn you can make it go the other way, so it is less efficient if it hits during overwatch.

As detailed by others, you are completely wrong.

Actually he is right. Both effects trigger on the same unsaved wound, and there is no indication in the wording of fnp that it should resolve first.

While - as already clarified - the hexrifle does allow the save, it is useful for another reason. It's not Instant Death - so it works even against Eternal Warrior. And as it's a sniper weapon, you can place those shots on a 6. So I wouldn't say they're rubbish, they just got better.

copper.talos wrote:Actually he is right. Both effects trigger on the same unsaved wound, and there is no indication in the wording of fnp that it should resolve first.

True, but there is a paradox in the FNP vs Hexrifle results. You have to resolve both and the active player determines order. However when you resolve FNP, it changes the unsaved wound into a saved wound. So now you have the Hexrifle resolving against a saved wound.

Fragile wrote:

copper.talos wrote:Actually he is right. Both effects trigger on the same unsaved wound, and there is no indication in the wording of fnp that it should resolve first.

True, but there is a paradox in the FNP vs Hexrifle results. You have to resolve both and the active player determines order. However when you resolve FNP, it changes the unsaved wound into a saved wound. So now you have the Hexrifle resolving against a saved wound.

Actually, either way works just fine. On an unsaved wound;

If the FNP roll is made first and passed, then no roll is made for the hexfire test because the successful FNP result means "...the unsaved Wound is discounted - treat it as having been saved."

If the hexfire test is made first, and failed, the FNP roll can still be made.

This is becausee the hexfire test says no saves of any kind can be made, but FNP says right in it's rule that "...(this is not a saving throw)...".

However, gamewise it makes more sense to take the FNP roll first, then if failed the models has suffered an unsaved wound and would have to take the characteristic test the hexrifle rule requires.

It's the least confusing way to implement both rules.

Prodigalson wrote:Ok, that is what I thought. It's crap then.

Hex Rifles are great, my list always has 2-3. (generally on 3 man wrack squads in venoms that sit on objectives / in cover)

It's a sniper weapon (which have gotten better), it hits on 4's (and allocates the wound on 6's), it wounds on 4's (and is AP2 on 6's).
Now while a lot of the time this is basically a 36" Range, Assault 1, Splinter Rifle with Rending, if the model / unit you're shooting consists of multiwound models it has a chance remove it from the game.

I've used my hex weapons to instakill Tomb Spyders, Carnifexes, Hive Tyrants, Grotesques, St Celestine, Grey Knight Termis, Obliterators, Dreadknights, Scarab Swarms, That GK Character that keeps getting back up, etc... a myriad of multiwound creatures.

The major benefit being, most people ignore the 3 man 1 shot squads in favour of the other threats my army brings to the table, so they're free to do as they please.

Ovion
Thats the perfect execution of them guns. Its right on. They are not garbage. Simply put they are sweet as hell.

megatrons2nd wrote:The rules state that the active player decides which goes first when to rules are activated at the same time..

Actually FNP goes before any other things that say Unsaved wounds.

This is because you do not know if a wound has been saved until the outcome of the FNP Roll, because if you pass a FNP roll you treat the wound as saved.

Ovion wrote:

Prodigalson wrote:Ok, that is what I thought. It's crap then.

Hex Rifles are great, my list always has 2-3. (generally on 3 man wrack squads in venoms that sit on objectives / in cover)

It's a sniper weapon (which have gotten better), it hits on 4's (and allocates the wound on 6's), it wounds on 4's (and is AP2 on 6's).
Now while a lot of the time this is basically a 36" Range, Assault 1, Splinter Rifle with Rending, if the model / unit you're shooting consists of multiwound models it has a chance remove it from the game.

I've used my hex weapons to instakill Tomb Spyders, Carnifexes, Hive Tyrants, Grotesques, St Celestine, Grey Knight Termis, Obliterators, Dreadknights, Scarab Swarms, That GK Character that keeps getting back up, etc... a myriad of multiwound creatures.

The major benefit being, most people ignore the 3 man 1 shot squads in favour of the other threats my army brings to the table, so they're free to do as they please.

You sir are a scholar of pain indeed and I must now make some changes to my new experimental list.

I played my first game of 6th over 500pts yesterday, so could actually field my delightful rifles.
I can now attest to the effectiveness of Precision Shots as my 2 hex-wrack squads proceeded to single out and instakill a few ork characters and harming a mad dok (sadly no instakill there)

'course at that point due to ultimately bad luck and that it was a list I made in 5th, the hex-wracks were the only squishy target left and so got brutally murdered before I officially got steamrolled with only 2 venoms and my razorwing left alive.... but that's neither here no there - the Hex Wracks easily killed more than their points in enemy orks. xD

Sadly my Grotesques were no where near as durable as they used to be, so that was mildly dissapointing...
We'll try it again with a revised 6th ed list next week... with not taking Grotesques, maybe 3 Hex-Haems with the Hex-Wracks for 6 Hex Rifles?

Ovion wrote:I played my first game of 6th over 500pts yesterday, so could actually field my delightful rifles.
I can now attest to the effectiveness of Precision Shots as my 2 hex-wrack squads proceeded to single out and instakill a few ork characters and harming a mad dok (sadly no instakill there)

'course at that point due to ultimately bad luck and that it was a list I made in 5th, the hex-wracks were the only squishy target left and so got brutally murdered before I officially got steamrolled with only 2 venoms and my razorwing left alive.... but that's neither here no there - the Hex Wracks easily killed more than their points in enemy orks. xD

Sadly my Grotesques were no where near as durable as they used to be, so that was mildly dissapointing...
We'll try it again with a revised 6th ed list next week... with not taking Grotesques, maybe 3 Hex-Haems with the Hex-Wracks for 6 Hex Rifles?

The new list I am trying is so strange to me. It feels like I went from using my infantry to kill infantry and my vehicles to kill vehicles, to using my vehicles to kill infantry and my infantry to kill vehicles. It just feels weird.

DeathReaper wrote:Actually FNP goes before any other things that say Unsaved wounds.

This is because you do not know if a wound has been saved until the outcome of the FNP Roll, because if you pass a FNP roll you treat the wound as saved.

Would you care to support that claim with rules?

time wizard wrote:Actually, either way works just fine. On an unsaved wound;

If the FNP roll is made first and passed, then no roll is made for the hexfire test because the successful FNP result means "...the unsaved Wound is discounted - treat it as having been saved."

If the hexfire test is made first, and failed, the FNP roll can still be made.

This is becausee the hexfire test says no saves of any kind can be made, but FNP says right in it's rule that "...(this is not a saving throw)...".

However, gamewise it makes more sense to take the FNP roll first, then if failed the models has suffered an unsaved wound and would have to take the characteristic test the hexrifle rule requires.

It's the least confusing way to implement both rules.

Either way doesnt work though. If you do the Hexrifle first and failed you would remove the model. Then you have to do FNP. If you succeed, the wound is treated as saved. If the wound is treated as saved, then the Hexrifle failed because it requires an unsaved wound. So you can't test the Hexrifle until you know that the wound is unsaved. FNP "treat the wound as saved".

I suppose that would depend on how you treat "removed from play". Most people I have played treat it as a type of instant death. One that even bypasses Eternal Warrior. You can't take FnP against ID weapons.

As an odd addition to this, if FnP can't be used against weapons that cause ID, can it be used against weapons that cause ID on a characteristic test, or special roll of the dice? The weapon does cause ID just not all the time. My gut says no, but....

Drunkspleen wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:Actually FNP goes before any other things that say Unsaved wounds.

This is because you do not know if a wound has been saved until the outcome of the FNP Roll, because if you pass a FNP roll you treat the wound as saved.

Would you care to support that claim with rules?

I really wouldn't bother. This has been debated already, and apparently nothing can ever come before FNP ever no matter what, irrespective of what qualifiers the rule may contain, according to DR anyway.

For reference;
Same question wrt. Entropic Strike. Note that apparently having to do something "immediately" still comes after FNP...

Same question wrt. Tyranid Boneswords, which would deny FNP if they trigger.

Drunkspleen wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:Actually FNP goes before any other things that say Unsaved wounds.

This is because you do not know if a wound has been saved until the outcome of the FNP Roll, because if you pass a FNP roll you treat the wound as saved.

Would you care to support that claim with rules?

Re-read FNP P.35.

"when a model with this special rule suffers an unsaved'W'ound, it can make a special Feel No Pain roll to avoid being wounded"

A model can to avoid being wounded if they pass FNP. This also we are also told to "treat [the Unsaved wound] as having been saved"

so we do not know if we have an unsaved wound until FNP is rolled for and passed or failed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

nohman wrote:I really wouldn't bother. This has been debated already, and apparently nothing can ever come before FNP ever no matter what, irrespective of what qualifiers the rule may contain, according to DR anyway.

For reference;
Same question wrt. Entropic Strike. Note that apparently having to do something "immediately" still comes after FNP...

Same question wrt. Tyranid Boneswords, which would deny FNP if they trigger.

That is because you do not know if you have an unsaved wound until FNP is resolved.

DeathReaper wrote:Re-read FNP P.35.

"when a model with this special rule suffers an unsaved'W'ound, it can make a special Feel No Pain roll to avoid being wounded"

A model can to avoid being wounded if they pass FNP. This also we are also told to "treat [the Unsaved wound] as having been saved"

so we do not know if we have an unsaved wound until FNP is rolled for and passed or failed.

But we do know that an unsaved wound has been suffered UNTIL such a time that FNP triggers and reverses that, this has to be the case to trigger FNP in the first place.

It seems to me the rules do trigger at the same time, allowing the player whose turn it is to choose the order.

What is interesting in that conclusion is, if you insist FNP can override the already triggered rule by reversing the wound, can't the removal from play override the FNP (by virtue of the model not existing anymore) denying the model the ability to use it?

Or alternatively, if you get to roll your FNP despite already being removed from play because it had been triggered previously, then wouldn't the Hexrifle's wound test get to happen even if you roll your FNP because it had been triggered previously, despite the triggering condition no longer existing.

DeathReaper wrote:

megatrons2nd wrote:The rules state that the active player decides which goes first when to rules are activated at the same time..

Actually FNP goes before any other things that say Unsaved wounds.

This is because you do not know if a wound has been saved until the outcome of the FNP Roll, because if you pass a FNP roll you treat the wound as saved.

Yeah, in your world maybe. Sadly there is a qualifier that says that you can take a FnP roll for an unsaved wound. So by your logic you can NEVER take a FnP roll, because you can't use FnP on a saved wound. What you are saying is it goes all the way back to the initial wound and removes it, thus not an unsaved wound, but you ignore all the stuff in the middle. How about a flow chart:

My turn:
Hit
Wound
fail save
Unsaved wound rolls:
Active player chooses order(as per pg9)
Hex Rifle
If Hex rifle succeeds remove from play, if not:
FnP
If succeeds no wound if not take a wound as normal


Your Turn my overwatch
Hit
Wound
Fail save
Unsaved wound rolls
Active player chooses order(as per pg9)
FnP
If successful wound is saved, if not:
Hex rifle
If succeeds remove from play if not take 1 wound.

Your way:
Hit
Wound
FnP
Fail save
FnP




The qualifier for an unsaved wound must be met first. Thus ANY unsaved wound qualifier is treated as "at the same time" and thus covered buy the Exceptional rule(pg9 bottom left hand side). Their is of course those that include "immediately" in it which buy definition would go earlier than those that do not include said word.

Drunkspleen wrote:But we do know that an unsaved wound has been suffered UNTIL such a time that FNP triggers and reverses that, this has to be the case to trigger FNP in the first place.

It seems to me the rules do trigger at the same time, allowing the player whose turn it is to choose the order.

Not at all.

FNP must be resolved first as you do not have an unsaved wound if you pass FNP which would make things like Hexrifles not able to be triggered.

The unsaved wound is not unsaved if the FNP roll is passed, so it would negate the Hexrifles condition.

If you roll the hexrifle first then FNP, you are not treating the wound as if it had been saved as the FNP rule tells us if you pass the FNP roll.

megatrons2nd wrote:Yeah, in your world maybe. Sadly there is a qualifier that says that you can take a FnP roll for an unsaved wound. So by your logic you can NEVER take a FnP roll, because you can't use FnP on a saved wound. What you are saying is it goes all the way back to the initial wound and removes it, thus not an unsaved wound, but you ignore all the stuff in the middle.

Their is of course those that include "immediately" in it which buy definition would go earlier than those that do not include said word.

Why would not never get a FNP roll?

Fail a save, Roll FNP to see if it is a saved or unsaved wound, continue with the game.

It is as simple as this FNP removes the unsaved wound and makes it a saved wound.

So nothing can trigger off the saved wound because it is not an unsaved wound.