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Is this legal for a BA army?

Reclusiarch

Ass squad - Dpod
Ass squad - Dpod

Death Co. - Dpod
(Reclusiarch Drops with DC)

Death co Dread - Dpod


Is it legal if I put the Death Co, DC Dread, And Reclusiarch in a stormraven.?

Its all legal with one exception. Your HQ choice isnt allowed into the drop pod. Even if you attach it to a unit within one. He can operate outside the unit by himself and thusly is the only model you would place on the battlefield.

Xzerios wrote:Its all legal with one exception. Your HQ choice isnt allowed into the drop pod. Even if you attach it to a unit within one.

What makes you say that?

ICs can start in dedicated transports if they joint he owning unit.

it is legal but i wouldnt recommend it because at end of any game turn, if you have no models alive on board you lose

nightsorrow wrote:it is legal but i wouldnt recommend it because at end of any game turn, if you have no models alive on board you lose

SM armies bring half the drop pods onto the field during game turn one.

insaniak wrote:

Xzerios wrote:Its all legal with one exception. Your HQ choice isnt allowed into the drop pod. Even if you attach it to a unit within one.

What makes you say that?

ICs can start in dedicated transports if they joint he owning unit.

Pg 124 BRB wrote:
Preparing Reserves
When deploying their armies, players can choose not to deploy up to half of their units (rounding up) keeping them as Reserves to arrive later. Units that must start the game in reserve are ignored for the purposes of working out how many other units may do so. A unit and its Dedicated Transport are counted as a single unit for these purposes. Independent Charters are also counted as a single unit regardless of whether they have joined another unit or not. During deployment, when declaring which units are kept as Reserves, the player must clearly explain the organisation of his Reserves to the opponent.

Underlined portion good sir. :3

*In the end, you would have a list that looks like this:

Reclusiarch - on the board

Ass squad - Dpod - Reserves
Ass squad - Dpod - Reserves

Death Co. - Dpod - Reserves

Death co Dread - Dpod - Reserves

Camarodragon wrote:
Is it legal if I put the Death Co, DC Dread, And Reclusiarch in a stormraven.?

Yes, however that Stormraven would have to start out on the battlefield to fulfill the prerequisites for Preparing Reserves. You dont have to count the Drop Pods for the Prepairing Reserves rule as they have the Drop Pod Assault rule which states half of them arrive by Deep Strike on the first turn (reserves only). Since you would only have your HQ and your Stormraven to count, you could put them both in the Stormraven and on the battlefield turn one, or the HQ on the battlefield and the Stormraven in reserves turn one. :3

Now go read page 36, Deep Strike, under the Special Rules section, and notice there is another special rule about *any models* inside of a Dedicate Transport that *mus* Deep Strike not counting toward what goes into reserve.

All drop pod army, even with characters, is legal.

Incorrect. The rules for Deepstrike and the rules for Preparing Reserves are different. Deepstrike's rule does reference the fact that models that are required to arrive by Deepstrike are not counted towards to the total in regards to the rules for Preparing Reserves. However, your Independent Character (HQ) is counted as a single unit as told to us by the rules for Preparing Reserves. Since it also states that you can only reserve half your FoC, if your FoC is a full reserve list, you are required to leave your HQ outside of the reserves roster to fulfill the status of half your FoC out of reserves.

Now, if the line about Independent Characters was not written into the rules for Preparing Reserves, there would be no issue. Otherwise, why mention it?

So you have 1 model that does not have to start in reserve. Divide by 2, rounding up, means you can place one model in reserve. And then half the drop Pisa deep strike on turn 1.

Preparing Reserves, regular rule.

Deep Strike, special rule.

Deep strike does not just effect models that 'must' deep strike.

When I buy a unit of troops with a dedicated transport, they have the option to deploy in it. The rule for Deep Strike says that "any" models deployed into a dedicated transport that must deep strike do not count.

"any" includes, attached characters.

Xzerios wrote:

insaniak wrote:

Xzerios wrote:Its all legal with one exception. Your HQ choice isnt allowed into the drop pod. Even if you attach it to a unit within one.

What makes you say that?

ICs can start in dedicated transports if they joint he owning unit.

Pg 124 BRB wrote:
Preparing Reserves
When deploying their armies, players can choose not to deploy up to half of their units (rounding up) keeping them as Reserves to arrive later. Units that must start the game in reserve are ignored for the purposes of working out how many other units may do so. A unit and its Dedicated Transport are counted as a single unit for these purposes. Independent Charters are also counted as a single unit regardless of whether they have joined another unit or not. During deployment, when declaring which units are kept as Reserves, the player must clearly explain the organisation of his Reserves to the opponent.

Underlined portion good sir. :3

The paragraph immediately after this states "First, he must specify to the opponent if any of his Independent Characters left in reserve are joining a unit, in which case they will arrive together."

You guys can save yourself a lot of time... if you read page 36... really carefully... and note that page 124 is the generic rule... page 36 has a special exception for any passenges on board a transport that MUST deep strike.

Alternatively, the whole topic has been discussed previously and it comes to the same conclusion. If you would like a dakka reference, here it is:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/458292.page

Cheers and happy gaming,

I see your points. Allow me to demonstrate gentlemen/ladies.

Reclusiarch 1 unit, HQ

Ass squad 1 unit - able to take pod
Dpod - dedicated. Discount
Ass squad 1 unit - able to take pod
Dpod - dedicated. Discount

Death Co. 1 unit - able to take pod
Dpod - dedicated. Discount

Death co Dread 1 unit - able to take pod
Dpod - dedicated. Discount


In total, theres nine units on this FoC list. You may discount four of them as four of these units have dedicated Transports. You would be able to discount the HQ by attaching it to one of the squads, but the rules for Preparing Reserves happen as your deploying. You havent deepstriked anything yet as your unable to. Since Preparing Reserves states that your HQ counts as a single unit, you must factor that when your doing your reserves.

Pg 124 BRB wrote:
First, he must specify to the opponent if any of his Independent Charters left in reserves are joining a unit, in which case they will arrive together. Similarly, the player must specify if any units in reserve are embarked upon any Transport vehicles in reserve, in which case they will arrive together.

The second Paragraph also states that you are unable to attach the HQ to the unit in reserves as by now, you have set up your units in reserves, and deployed on the field. As you were unable to reserve your HQ by itself, you are unable to attach it to any unit that is in reserves. Your understanding of deepsriking the unit may only apply to the HQ -IF- they are able to be put in reserves. If the HQ unit is the only unit that is unable to be put into the reserves; It then may not be attached to a squad in reserves, with a Dedicated Transport, which would make your claim correct.

As it is written this way, you now attach HQs to squadrons after you have done deployment and reserves.

Xzerios wrote: Since Preparing Reserves states that your HQ counts as a single unit, you must factor that when your doing your reserves.

Right. So if you are playing under the interpretation that units in dedicated Drop Pods don't count towards the total number of units you can reserve, that leaves you with one unit (the IC) that does count towards the total.

Half of 1, rounding up, is 1. So you can keep 1 of your 1 available units in reserve.



Since the IC is being kept in reserve, he can be joined to a unit. So long as there is room in a pod, he can climb aboard.

With that logic, yes. You could as its clearly defined. Also, good catch. My thought process missed that as a possiblity.


However, using page 36s rule for Deepstrike is the incorrect answer. The rules for reserves are all on page 124. So, with this in mind. If you have two HQs in your roster, you would be subjected to fielding one of them for sure.

But your interpretation of the Independent Character counting as separate from the unit he is attached to would mean that an IC could never enter play from reserve attached to a unit......

He counts as separate for the purposes of counting how many units you have to define the 50% deep strike allowance only.

Not quite correct, as you see, in the second paragraph, you are allowed to attach the Independent Character to a unit that is in reserves. The logic that the rest of the group has presented is correct. At the point of the second paragraph, you then shuffle your HQ to which ever unit you would want him to be with. Assuming that the Dedicated Transport has room for the HQ, you could then attach it to that unit. Unit to the Transport, and they all come down together.

Again, if you have two or three HQs, at minimum one must be fielded per the rules for Preparing Reserves. Two for four, ect. :3

Thats not entirely true. You ignore any models that are embarked in a transport that must deepstrike. So even if you had a bunch of IC's (HQ or otherwise), as long as there is room, in say a drop pod, they get ignored and you can deepstrike everything.

Note here that flyer lists got nerfed due to the models on the table or auto-lose rule.

I'm going to borrow a quote from another thread:

Captain Antivas wrote:
The flaw is that you don't do the final calculation until you deploy. The Reserve rules say that you can not deploly 50% of your army and leave the rest in reserve. When calculating how many units may do so units embarked on a transport that must deep strike are ignored. Even if you counted the IC first he is ignored in the final count of how many units must start on the board because he has been placed in reserves with a unit on a transport that must deep strike.

Barksdale wrote:Thats not entirely true. You ignore any models that are embarked in a transport that must deepstrike.

Nope. Regardless of whether or not they are joined to another unit, IC's are treated as a separate unit for determining how many can be kept in reserve.


I would also point out that there is some contention as to whether the unit in the drop pod is ignored. Units that must start in reserve are ignored... but the squad isn't a unit that must start in reserve. It has to Deep Strike if it is embarked in the pod, but it doesn't have to be in the pod.



So one camp argues that if you choose to embark the squad, they are then a unit that must be in reserve as the pod has to be, and the rules say to treat them as a single unit in that case.

But the other camp says that they don't have to stay in reserve, so they would still count... it's just the pod that wouldn't. And the rule about the unit and their transport counting as a single choice would then only apply if both the unit and the transport have a rule requiring them to be in reserve.

insaniak wrote:

Barksdale wrote:Thats not entirely true. You ignore any models that are embarked in a transport that must deepstrike.

Nope. Regardless of whether or not they are joined to another unit, IC's are treated as a separate unit for determining how many can be kept in reserve.

Except that models embarked in a transport vehicle that must deepstrike are ignored. Here is a good thread from the Army Lists forum illustrating the mechanics: Full Reserve with Space Wolves & Imperial Guard.


edit: url fixed

insaniak wrote:

Barksdale wrote:Thats not entirely true. You ignore any models that are embarked in a transport that must deepstrike.

Nope. Regardless of whether or not they are joined to another unit, IC's are treated as a separate unit for determining how many can be kept in reserve.


I would also point out that there is some contention as to whether the unit in the drop pod is ignored. Units that must start in reserve are ignored... but the squad isn't a unit that must start in reserve. It has to Deep Strike if it is embarked in the pod, but it doesn't have to be in the pod.



So one camp argues that if you choose to embark the squad, they are then a unit that must be in reserve as the pod has to be, and the rules say to treat them as a single unit in that case.

But the other camp says that they don't have to stay in reserve, so they would still count... it's just the pod that wouldn't. And the rule about the unit and their transport counting as a single choice would then only apply if both the unit and the transport have a rule requiring them to be in reserve.

You are correct good sir. Dedicated transports may be bought for the units that may take them, it does not mean you have to put them in it. If they are not put in the Dedicated Transport, you then have two units (the HQ and the unit that isnt going in the Dedicated Trasnport (albeit silly)). You then have to pick which model to keep on the field. *The section on models and their transports covers the grey area created by the IC situation. They -start- in the transport. Transport has the rules, and as such, are not counted.*

Although in this situation, that is the intended purpose. To create a list that is completely Deepstrike-able. RAW, completely doable with one HQ. :3

Barksdale wrote:Except that models embarked in a transport vehicle that must deepstrike are ignored.

The rules don't actually say that, though.

You declare which units are in transport when deciding who to keep in reserves. You can choose to not keep the unit in reserve... so they are not a unit that must start in reserve.

Deepstrike page 36.

In addition, a unit that must arrive by deepstrike (along with any models embarked upon them) are ignored.

Again this is straight from the rulebook. GW isn't going to nerf dp lists.

Unless the squad has a rule that says it must be embarked in the drop pod, it is not a unit that must arrive by deep strike.

Barksdale wrote:Deepstrike page 36.

In addition, a unit that must arrive by deepstrike (along with any models embarked upon them) are ignored.

Again this is straight from the rulebook. GW isn't going to nerf dp lists.

Page 36 is Incorrect rules that do not pertain to the game at this point. Your still deploying your models. You will be using the rules for deepstrike soon. The reason you are correct is not because of the rules for deepstrike, but the rules pertaining to Dedicated Transports. The unit that selects the Dedicated Transport starts in the transport. If the transport must start in reserves, the unit must do so as well.


Rule 36 again, comes up later in the game. It tells you how to bring that unit out of reserves. We are putting those units into Reserves so you may use the rules for Deepstrike later.

*What Mr insaniak is saying is that you dont have to start your unit in the Dedicated Transport, in which case, it counts towards the total of units that you have for Preparing Reserves.*

Let me grab the rulebook and write that exact wording:

When working out how many units can be placed in reserve, units that must be deployed via deepstrike (along with any models embarked upon them) are ignored.

Its right there on page 36.

So you count a total, put something into reserve. Put it into the drop pod. Now it is not counted anymore, so there is a new total. And you continue with this until all your untis are inside dps. RAW. Its what allows DP lists.

Barksdale wrote:

When working out how many units can be placed in reserve, units that must be deployed via deepstrike (along with any models embarked upon them) are ignored.

Excellent, if that's the actual wording from Deep Strike, then that would solve the issue. The Reserves rules are a little less specific, and hinge purely around whether or not the unit has to stay in reserve.

So a slight conflict there due to inconsistent wording, but good enough to see what is intended.

Barksdale wrote:Let me grab the rulebook and write that exact wording:

When working out how many units can be placed in reserve, units that must be deployed via deepstrike (along with any models embarked upon them) are ignored.

Its right there on page 36.

I dont disagree with this. This is refrencing the rules on Pg 124 for Prepairing Reserves. These Drop Pods must start the game in reserves. They are Dedicated Transports, and the unit that unlocked them may choose to start the game inside the Dedicated Transport. Since these models have started the game (prior to starting down the rules for Preparing Reserves) they may not be counted when you reach the point of Preparing Reserves. HQs are outlined in this rule as separate, even if you intend to attach them to a unit that is in reserves. Once you have tallied the number of units you have for Preparing Reserves, you are allowed to attach HQs to units. Be these units on the board if they are on the board; Or if the HQ is put into reserves (while still maintaining 50% fielded units), a unit in reserves. This then follows the rules for your Dedicated Transport, which nicely goes hand in hand with the rules outlined by Deepstrike.


I must point out at this point, Im -agreeing with you-. Just not with the rules your using to claim the HQ gets a free pass into the unit/transport.

So you count a total, put something into reserve. Put it into the drop pod. Now it is not counted anymore, so there is a new total. And you continue with this until all your untis are inside dps. RAW. Its what allows DP lists.

First sentence is correct. Second sentence only works if you are able to put the HQ into reserves. If you are able to do so. You may. Third sentence becomes correct, aswell as the rest of your post. Do you see what Im saying? Your correct all the way through, with the hinge on Preparing Reserves giving your HQ the go to slot into reserves.

What you are ignoring is the fact that ANY model embarked in a transport that must DS is ignored for the purpose of determining how many other units can DS. DS rules override Reserve rules. This includes an IC. If an IC joins a unit in a DP he, the pod, and the unit are ignored for the purposes of counting how many units may start in reserve.

What is wrong with the OPs list is that a Stormraven is not a DT and so the troops embarked in it count towards the total in reserves. Three units (Reclusiarch, Dread, DC) so one of them must start on the board. The only way it would work for them to be in the Stormraven is to have 2 other units start on the board.

The Stormraven is ignored because it must start in reserves, but the Dread and the DC are choosing to be in Reserves and cannot claim to be one unit since the Stormraven is not a DT. The Reclusiarch is an IC so he always counts as 1.

It doesn't matter if the unit is a dedicated transport or not. The DS rule says that when determining how many units can go into reserve, units that must deepstrike (along with any models embarked upon them) are ignored. Again, models that are embarked upon them are ignored. So if the dread, DC, and reclusiarch are inside the stormraven, they also get ignored.

The only problem with fliers is when someone wants to bring an all flier list thanks to the auto-lose for no models on the table.