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So to start off, this is not a rant about Finecast quality. Actually the quality seems pretty good (except, he is missing a finger...meh).

Thing is, the instructions in these things are piss poor, so I assembled him incorrectly. He essentially only has one foot on the floor, the other is in the air.

Now, being finecast, this has fethed it up. He appears to be "warping", the foot that's glued to the floor is anchoring it and the rest seems to be "sagging" under its own weight.

As much as Tzeentch would approve of this, it means ultimately a)it looks weird now and b) it will probably be unusable in a few weeks.

Would I be able to get a refund? I do still have the receipt (first finecast purchase, was sure to keep the receipt ). It's about...a quarter painted.

I suppose i'd be happy with a replacement, though I'd prefer a refund.

Cheers.

If you even have to ask yourself if you should return it or not the answer is always yes.

I, too, had to give GW a 'hello' about the poor drop pod instructions that ruined the inside of my first drop pod. I sent them a very detailed email, explained where in the instructions I had problems and how the instructions needed to be fixed (one of the inner pieces was improperly shown on the inside and I built it specifically to the instructions, and didn't match up). Be prepared to do the same-have them get out a copy of the instructions, discuss where the problem is, and go from there. If the topic of you having started to paint it comes up though, expect them to deny you-painting generally means you accept what you have. Maybe you don't but that's the message that comes across.

Well it came with instructions and a colour picture of what it should look like ie. both feet on the base but youve modeled it incorrectly. And then in stead of dry fitting it before you glued it you have fixed it that way. ..then proceded to paint it. ..now you mite get lucky and have mail order swop it over but if you came into my shop you would get told to suck it up as experience..

 CURNOW wrote:
Well it came with instructions and a colour picture of what it should look like ie. both feet on the base but youve modeled it incorrectly. And then in stead of dry fitting it before you glued it you have fixed it that way. ..then proceded to paint it. ..now you mite get lucky and have mail order swop it over but if you came into my shop you would get told to suck it up as experience..

...aaand you'd lose your job (assuming you work for GW).

I'm definitely returning it. I spent £36 on this with the last pay cheque I had after I lost my job. And the guys at my local GW are actually pretty cool, so I wouldn't have thought there'd be problems. If I do get another model, they can help me assemble it this time, to hell with my pride

Well being a retail manager for years i can tell you theres a difference between having a model with a production issue. And one that has been put together incorrectly!
Hey you mite get them on a good day. Do by all means try it. But dont be suprised if they tell you to cut it apart and re glue it.

Thankfully my experience of GW's customer service has not been anything like it has in Curnow's establishment. If you're unhappy with a product call them.

Curnow you almost remind me of this...
http://www.27bslash6.com/f4s.html

I doubt you will get a refund, but hey, I am just going by what I would do.

"I'd like a refund because I've built it wrong..." doesn't quite work in my books. Plus you've started to paint it.

Always, always do a dry fit before, a lesson learned I think. Then again, you might be blessed with exceptionally nice staff.

Good luck!

No refusing to exchange a product that has been ruined by customer miss use is not poor customer service. .it's about educating the customer on the correct way to use a product. I have to deal with scores of instances like this every week and as long as your polite and take the time to explaine to the customer why you wont be refunding / exchanging the product this time they are normaly ok with the decision.

Im sorry but the old adage "the customer is allways right " is false in this case.

Sure. Politely telling them is fine. Before you said you told them to "suck it up".

I couldn't in any way imagine you would get a refund. Why should you? It's like me buying a videogame, playing half of it and finding out I really don't like it, so I'll return it for a refund.

The product wasn't falty in any way, shape or form, so I wouldn't give you any kind of refund. Especially not after it's painted.

But perhaps they (or someone you know) could help you assemble it correctly? I have warmed a lot of finecast up and bended it a little bit, so if that' could help perhaps you could get assistance from them.

In fact, I would recommend you took a good picture and showed in the P&M section of Dakka, and perhaps someone there (me even ) could tell you how to fix it yourself. I have put together oe of those models recently, and while it was a bitch it came out just fine after a lot of cursing and swearing


Cheers

 Gorlack wrote:
I couldn't in any way imagine you would get a refund. Why should you? It's like me buying a videogame, playing half of it and finding out I really don't like it, so I'll return it for a refund.

The product wasn't falty in any way, shape or form, so I wouldn't give you any kind of refund. Especially not after it's painted.

Although, he did say in the OP that the finger is missing. That's all the excuse you need I think - I would give their customer services a call, they are generally very good with that sort of thing. Say that you started putting it together before you noticed the fault, I certainly can't imagine that they will say 'no' and the most they will ask is for you to return the faulty model.

I would say almost certainly that you will get a refund. A friend of mine got through about 4-5 Astorath the Grims - yes one of them had bingo wings and was only useful for it's comedy value, but he was rather banal about a couple of them (just pitting, not detail missing etc.) and AFAIK he must have got a replacement each time.

And I wouldn't feel any moral trepidation about returning them. They wouldn't offer free replacements if the models cost anything more than (probably) less than 5% of the RRP to make.

I would go with the missing finger aspect. that should be good enough to get a replacement. Putting a model together incorrectly to that extent is something I would honestly be embarassed to complain about on a forum in front of other adults. It isn't like you couldn't look at the picture on the front of the box and see what you were supposed to do or anything.........

I would've returned it because of the finger in the first place.

By using my brain, I am able to determine that Curnow wouldn't actually tell a real customer to suck it up but is paraphrasing for the sake of brevity on an internet forum.

In addition, he is correct. If you've failed to assemble it properly that isn't a fault in production and you aren't entitled to a refund. That doesn't mean that if you open a dialogue with CS you won't get a satisfactory outcome. Contrary to what many people seem to believe most businesses actually WANT you to be happy with your purchase and will do anything reasonable in order to achieve it.

azreal13 wrote:By using my brain, I am able to determine that Curnow wouldn't actually tell a real customer to suck it up but is paraphrasing for the sake of brevity on an internet forum.

In addition, he is correct. If you've failed to assemble it properly that isn't a fault in production and you aren't entitled to a refund. That doesn't mean that if you open a dialogue with CS you won't get a satisfactory outcome. Contrary to what many people seem to believe most businesses actually WANT you to be happy with your purchase and will do anything reasonable in order to achieve it.

Yup. Legally I wouldn't have anything, but companies take customer service very seriously. Even vehemently anti-GW people will concede that their customer service is very good so I'm pretty positive. A refund would be pushing it but i'd happily accept a return if they helped me assemble it this time

Gorlack wrote:I couldn't in any way imagine you would get a refund. Why should you? It's like me buying a videogame, playing half of it and finding out I really don't like it, so I'll return it for a refund.

It's more like buying a video game with a terrible tutorial, then playing it wrong and having it permanently corrupted.

"I assembled this miniature wrong, and then, knowing that I'd assembled it wrong, started painting it, and then decided that I didn't like the way I assembled it, I deserve a refund"

Not gonna hold up, really mate. Sorry to be so bleak about it.

Well from my vast resources and libraries of tzeentch if you want the model to have both feet on the ground you first must.... wait for it.. almost there.. maybe not glue it in place unless its resting on the base? i mean what would the return be for? the missing finger obviously you didnt even care about that put now that you but it together wrong its impportant because itll help get you a refund! sounds kinda like your mistake not theirs haha.

F-em, no finger = Replace it.

I don't know if it really counts as "assembling it wrong" in this case. Even with both feet anchored to the base the daemon prince is a large enough model that it probably would have started to "droop" under its own weight anyway, since that's what Finecast does, being a cheap, inferior quality of resin (and despite how that sounds that isn't exactly "biased", we've had people who are familiar with this stuff post on the forum before in one of the myriad of Finecast threads and the same thing was said there by people who know what they're talking about: it looks and behaves like a cheap resin and its likely flawed because of the spin-casting process GW is using and by not allowing the models proper time to cure, as evidenced by how you sometimes get a little bit of pink/yellow mold material with your model).

Also, IIRC one of the main selling points for Finecast, which GW themselves used to try and hype up this supposed wonder material when they first rolled it out, was that it could be cut easier than metal, allowing for easier conversions or custom posing. What if he wanted his prince in a running/leaping pose or something and only anchored one foot to the base because of that? Would it still be "customer misuse" if you're assembling a model in a manner that you had no reasonable way of knowing was "incorrect" in the first place, and actually kind of encouraged by GW themselves? Even if you could avoid the drooping problem by cutting up the entire model and pinning everything (a la FW Tyranid hierophant's spindly legs), that's still way more work than what GW advertised previously with Finecast, so I think a case could be made for saying you were misled.

In any case I think the OP has every right to try for a replacement, but will most likely get told to "feth off" since GW customer service is not as good as it used to be post-Finecast release, last I heard. At least when it comes to Finecast problems anyway. Even if you do get a replacement though you'll still have problems with it (because it's Finecast), so in my opinion you'll either have to prepare to deal with it or find another suitable model to use instead.

Speaking of which, what model is this, anyway?

 fire4effekt wrote:
F-em, no finger = Replace it.

You know, I have no doubt that there will be people who think this is unreasonable, but considering that you'll almost never pay more for models than you will for GW Finecast I think that attitude is entirely appropriate. Considering the amount of money you're putting out for these models, missing fingers or other details are just unacceptable, pure and simple. Doesn't matter if you have to resculpt a finger or half a guy's face, if it requires more filler than what it takes to fill in a couple of pin-sized holes then it's defective.

 Gorlack wrote:
I couldn't in any way imagine you would get a refund. Why should you? It's like me buying a videogame, playing half of it and finding out I really don't like it, so I'll return it for a refund.

Somewhat off topic, but some places do actually allow it. Unsurprisingly it's often abused.


I doubt you'll get a refund, but they might help you fix it. Foot's off the ground? Why not put a "rock" or body under it and make it interesting. That sort of thing.

 Sidstyler wrote:
I don't know if it really counts as "assembling it wrong" in this case. Even with both feet anchored to the base the daemon prince is a large enough model that it probably would have started to "droop" under its own weight anyway, since that's what Finecast does, being a cheap, inferior quality of resin (and despite how that sounds that isn't exactly "biased", we've had people who are familiar with this stuff post on the forum before in one of the myriad of Finecast threads and the same thing was said there by people who know what they're talking about: it looks and behaves like a cheap resin and its likely flawed because of the spin-casting process GW is using and by not allowing the models proper time to cure, as evidenced by how you sometimes get a little bit of pink/yellow mold material with your model).

Also, IIRC one of the main selling points for Finecast, which GW themselves used to try and hype up this supposed wonder material when they first rolled it out, was that it could be cut easier than metal, allowing for easier conversions or custom posing. What if he wanted his prince in a running/leaping pose or something and only anchored one foot to the base because of that? Would it still be "customer misuse" if you're assembling a model in a manner that you had no reasonable way of knowing was "incorrect" in the first place, and actually kind of encouraged by GW themselves? Even if you could avoid the drooping problem by cutting up the entire model and pinning everything (a la FW Tyranid hierophant's spindly legs), that's still way more work than what GW advertised previously with Finecast, so I think a case could be made for saying you were misled.

In any case I think the OP has every right to try for a replacement, but will most likely get told to "feth off" since GW customer service is not as good as it used to be post-Finecast release, last I heard. At least when it comes to Finecast problems anyway. Even if you do get a replacement though you'll still have problems with it (because it's Finecast), so in my opinion you'll either have to prepare to deal with it or find another suitable model to use instead.

Speaking of which, what model is this, anyway?

 fire4effekt wrote:
F-em, no finger = Replace it.

You know, I have no doubt that there will be people who think this is unreasonable, but considering that you'll almost never pay more for models than you will for GW Finecast I think that attitude is entirely appropriate. Considering the amount of money you're putting out for these models, missing fingers or other details are just unacceptable, pure and simple. Doesn't matter if you have to resculpt a finger or half a guy's face, if it requires more filler than what it takes to fill in a couple of pin-sized holes then it's defective.

The daemon prince(or really any model of it's size) won't "droop" under it's own weight. The model I have(including custom made base with cork tile and gravel and Elmer's glue weighs maybe 2oz. There's no weight to speak of. That's like claiming any plastic model would "droop" under it's own weight. You've obviously never touched a Finecast model, nor probably any resin piece if you think it has any substantial weight to it. The complaints you are actually referring to are people leaving the model in a hot car and having them warp or melt. Sorry but that's owner stupidity - resin, of any kind, by nature is affected by heat. It's not exclusive to Finecast. Claiming that Finecast is a cheap resin, is saying resin is a cheap resin. There are different types of resin and Finecast is just a brand name for a type of resin. One that FW has used for years. The problem isn't so much the material as introducing a larger customer base not used to the extra work required of resin models. FW resin has had the exact same issues in some cases, and costs a lot more to boot, yet you didn't hear complaints because the customer base was not as large.

Finecast is easier to cut than metal. It is, to an insane degree more easy to work with and convert. GW has no responsibility to replace model beyond defects. Once you choose to convert your model, it's yours. They encourage conversions because this is a creative hobby. They aren't obligated to guranatee everyone is a master at the conversion they attempt with their stuff once they buy it.

That said, OP can probably very easily get a replacement from customer service. They sent me a replacement daemon prince for a very minor flaw no questions asked, and I kept the extra model as well. it was essentially a 2 for 1 purchase. The fact that you think they would tell anyone to "feth off' is so absurd it is laughable. I don't think I've ever seen a post in my life where someone spoke with such certainty on a topics they clearly know absolutely nothing about every single point they've raised.

And before you bother to come back saying I'm defending GW in some way, I'm not at all. Finecast has it's problems, but GW deals with defect issues in every case where a customer bothers to contact them Anyone saying GW will not resolve issues with Finecast model is being disingenuous. I'm just pointing out how incredibly wrong you are and how obvious it is you have no experience with the products you are railing against.

TL;DR

OP, call GW customer service and tell them the model has a defect on the finger and you need a replacement. Don't bother mentioning it was assembled or partially painted. Tell them you aren't able to go to the store or they didn't have a replacement available and ask if they can mail you one. If you prefer to go to the store, they will probably replace it as well, but I wouldn't wear out any good will by bringing back half painted models more than this one time. If you are unsure about a model, replace it before assembling. Once you alter the original condition they have no legal obligation to replace it for you. That's just a general rule as a consumer and not specific to GW. Best of luck!

Honestly judging by your situation it sounds like you do not deserve a refund. You assembled the model in an unintended way that placed strain on the material, which warped due to its nature.

The material was not defective, the cast was not defective, you just assembled it wrong and suffered consequences.

 Glorioski wrote:

http://www.27bslash6.com/f4s.html

Damn you so much. I am meant to be doing an assignment, but I just want to read more...

That guy is quite good, I recommend the one about the floodlight.

Heh, he's brilliant.

If you only read one more read this one... http://www.27bslash6.com/overdue.html

 Starfarer wrote:
The daemon prince(or really any model of it's size) won't "droop" under it's own weight. The model I have(including custom made base with cork tile and gravel and Elmer's glue weighs maybe 2oz. There's no weight to speak of. That's like claiming any plastic model would "droop" under it's own weight.

So then what happened to the OP's daemon prince, if these larger models are truly weightless and it's impossible for it to sag under its own weight? Apparently it will if you only have one foot anchored to the base otherwise this thread wouldn't exist.

I think you're taking my "Hurr durr, even with both feet anchored it'd probably still do it!" comment a tad too seriously, and now I'm genuinely confused because I don't know what you're trying to say. Will Finecast models "droop" or not? Because you said yours doesn't, that the idea of them drooping at all is apparently so fething absurd because there's "no weight to speak of", and that I clearly know nothing at all about resin models, yet the OP has the same model and his is droopy because only one foot is glued to the base, and you acknowledge this later on in your post when addressing the OP directly, telling him it's drooping because he did in fact assemble it "incorrectly" and that if he wants another one he should complain about the missing detail and not the drooping. Why else would the model be drooping if not for the weight of the model being more than the one leg can support, because I don't remember the OP saying he ever put it in direct sunlight or held a lighter up next to it.

It's like you're saying "You're an idiot, large Finecast models won't droop because they're practically weightless. So anyway, OP, your model is droopy because you assembled it with one leg attached to the base." Uh...k then, so they don't droop, unless they droop. : \

If resin is really no different than plastic and won't bend under its own weight, then would a model like the tyrannofex be perfectly okay if it were cast in resin instead?

 Starfarer wrote:
You've obviously never touched a Finecast model, nor probably any resin piece if you think it has any substantial weight to it.

I own exactly 20 of them. To be more specific: three boxes of DE incubi I bought during the first couple weeks of Finecast's launch, a DE haemonculus, medusae, lhamaean (this model in particular is the worst I have ever purchased, literally every interesting detail of the model has holes in it, I was sorely tempted to just bin the fether but it would be like throwing away $20), and Lilith, and Trazyn, the Infinite.

All infantry-sized pieces, though, so yeah, no substantial weight to them. I'm not about to waste any more money on that garbage, either, so the prospect of spending $36-70+ on a single, larger-sized model (preferably one that's somewhat top heavy), that's going to be miscast or full of holes or both, just to see if it starts to sag or not, is not very appealing to me. Hence I will just have to assume that a larger piece of material will have more weight to it than a smaller piece, and that the added weight could cause warping/sagging/drooping or whatever if assembled in a way where the weight is not being evenly distributed, or if the model is designed that way.

 Starfarer wrote:
The complaints you are actually referring to are people leaving the model in a hot car and having them warp or melt. Sorry but that's owner stupidity - resin, of any kind, by nature is affected by heat. It's not exclusive to Finecast.

I'm obviously not talking about the idiots who put them in direct sunlight or in a hot car on a hot day and then acted surprised when they got droopy. Lots of cases of "melting models" were obviously caused by heat but there were complaints of models bending/warping at room temperatures or when stored in cases.

 Starfarer wrote:
Claiming that Finecast is a cheap resin, is saying resin is a cheap resin. There are different types of resin and Finecast is just a brand name for a type of resin. One that FW has used for years.

I know it's a brand name. It's a fething joke of a brand name at that, because "Finecast" to me is now synonymous with garbage and low-quality at ludicrous prices, and my opinion on that will likely never change as I've wasted more than enough money on the gak to learn my lesson. It's so amusing to me that a product with "fine" in its name is anything but.

 Starfarer wrote:
The problem isn't so much the material as introducing a larger customer base not used to the extra work required of resin models. FW resin has had the exact same issues in some cases, and costs a lot more to boot, yet you didn't hear complaints because the customer base was not as large.

I personally think both might have something to do with it: either the material they're using is of lesser quality, or they're not casting them properly and sending out inferior product just to meet demand, or both.

Also, you mention that there are indeed multiple types of resin, but then suggest that it's stupid for me to say that the resin GW is using is poorer quality, or "cheap". If you know more about this than I do then do you mind explaining why exactly it's so absurd of me to assume that GW is using a cheap kind of resin, or trying to use a type of resin that isn't appropriate for mass-production of models like they're using it for? I assume that if there are different types then they must all be different in some way, perhaps better-suited for some things than others? Maybe GW is using the "wrong" type of resin because it's cheaper? It's been hinted at before in the other Finecast threads by people who are supposedly in the know, so if you know better then by all means I'm interested in hearing about it.

 Starfarer wrote:
Finecast is easier to cut than metal. It is, to an insane degree more easy to work with and convert. GW has no responsibility to replace model beyond defects. Once you choose to convert your model, it's yours. They encourage conversions because this is a creative hobby. They aren't obligated to guranatee everyone is a master at the conversion they attempt with their stuff once they buy it.

Fair enough, personally I'm not even trying that hard to say they're "obligated" to replace the model in this case. Just more "Hurr durr Finecast sucks!" crap since I haven't had a chance to bitch about it in a long time.

Haven't bought any since January, don't plan to ever again. Kinda sad because I really wanted those Dark Eldar beasts, but they were overpriced in metal, and more-so now in problem-ridden Finecast.

 Starfarer wrote:
That said, OP can probably very easily get a replacement from customer service. They sent me a replacement daemon prince for a very minor flaw no questions asked, and I kept the extra model as well. it was essentially a 2 for 1 purchase. The fact that you think they would tell anyone to "feth off' is so absurd it is laughable. I don't think I've ever seen a post in my life where someone spoke with such certainty on a topics they clearly know absolutely nothing about every single point they've raised.

I based my assumption on previous posters who said GW was getting "stingy" on Finecast returns, as my own personal experience with GW CS was limited to one phone call about the incubi I bought (and the replacement box was worse, never bothered to call about any of the other models and just committed myself to not buying anymore). Supposedly GW were getting lots of complaints about Finecast and were starting to tell people they had to mail models back in, no more free replacements, and replacements would only be shipped out when the models were determined to be in bad enough shape to warrant it. I also recall some posters being told the models they got were the absolute best casts they could possibly make and were still getting flawed models.

Or I could just say nothing about anything, ever. I'm not allowed to participate in this discussion forum unless I'm a fething master in whatever subject I've chosen to talk about I guess.

 Starfarer wrote:
And before you bother to come back saying I'm defending GW in some way, I'm not at all. Finecast has it's problems, but GW deals with defect issues in every case where a customer bothers to contact them Anyone saying GW will not resolve issues with Finecast model is being disingenuous. I'm just pointing out how incredibly wrong you are and how obvious it is you have no experience with the products you are railing against.

Go ask winterdyne and MiLkiT about how GW resolves issues with Finecast and then tell me it's disingenuous. I don't think it really counts as a resolution when you replace bad product with more bad product, which seems to happen a lot with Finecast. Although I honestly can't say how it's been here lately, since I haven't bought anything since that lhamaean I got back in January which was the final straw for me, but I typically browse the new releases at my local store out of curiosity and it doesn't look like quality has really improved much...I can still spot flaws through the blisters, and like with most Finecast models there are bound to be more when you get it home.

I have enough experience with Finecast models personally, and I've seen more than enough online, to know that I'm entirely justified in my railing against them. I'll take back what I said earlier, suggesting that Finecast was so bad models would just droop under their own weight for no reason, because that's not exactly proven, but Finecast is by all means still a very flawed product.

I'll start by apologizing for my tone in the previous post. Nothing pushes my buttons more than someone talking with authority on a subject they know nothing about, and I thought that to be the case, and you were speaking entirely on conjecture based on other people's experience with Finecast. Regardless, there's not reason to get hostile talking about our toy soldiers.

Honestly, though, I don't think OP's model actually drooped. I'm guessing since it was only mounted by one leg, he glued it and the model shifted as it was drying which made it look droopy. I'm 99% certain it did not shirt due to it's own weight but shift while drying due to gravity.

My advice with Finecast regarding defective models is simple. Get as many replacements as you need. I'm sure GW customer service started requiring a bit more proof just to ensure people weren't making fraudulent claims, but provide pics if needed, and get replacements. Chances are it is simply not cost effective to pay to ship their defective models back to them, so they write it off as a loss and you get an extra model.

Decided to upload a picture (it's a lord of change, not deamon prince). Probably should have done earlier.

Honestly I was being unfair on myself when I said it was "inproperly modelled". It didn't look like the dude on the box rather. But yeah, this is what he looks like now:



It's even more noticable here:



Suffice to say, he was upright when I glued him, and very gradually "drooped" over a matter of weeks.

The resin used in Finecast (and many resins) does sag at room temperature. Especially if (as the OP mentioned) the model is in an unstable, unsupported position. The warmer end of conditions (summer) makes the problem worse. As the resin used in Finecast (and some Forgeworld spin-cast models) is very responsive thermally, you get a lot more sag. It also bends quite easily with simple pressure.

I won't speculate on the OP's model as yeah, I'm afraid you've definitely botched it.

You would be entitled to a replacement because of the missing finger.

YOU SHOULD CHECK THIS BEFORE ASSEMBLY.

YOU SHOULD DRY-FIT BEFORE GLUING

Trust me, there are enough issues there to fix without making very basic mistakes.

GW / FW Customer Service are very good about arranging replacements. However, the replacements I've had have often been as bad if not worse than what's being sent out. It's usually that I've run out of patience with the constant replacement tango rather than I've gotten a piece that I'm truly happy to accept.

EXCEPTION: Forgeworld. Forgeworld apparently listen. Many of the kits that have had known problems (event-only Skinwolf, Tartaros pattern terminators) are no longer spin-cast. They've gone back to the far more reliable pressure-casting method. Very big kudos to the FW team for doing this, I assume it is EXTREMELY difficult to justify a more expensive production method in favour of a cheaper one these days. Especially at Lenton.

Back to the OP, I sympathise with the need for a replacement, but I honestly feel the time to do something like that is before assembly. I've only once gone through and requested a replacement for something I intended to keep - the Captain Stern I painted up for my Finecast Review. I never did get a better one.

Regardless of how easy the material is to cut and how simple it is to get a (not necessarily good) replacement, Finecast (and FW spin-cast resin) is in my opinion the singular worst thing to happen to the GW hobby. Terrible production values, accepted by the inexperienced target market at ludicrous pricing levels. I don't even care about price. I just care about quality. Good tools makes metalwork easy. Dremel / rotary tools, a decent set of files and a jewellers saw. Some minor tuition is all that's needed.

Edit: Oh jesus, that LoC is a doozy. Pics in GW's Flickr pool yet? And that will probably be sufficient to send to trading standards / BBC watchdog as well. I've sent all the pics of the gak they've sent me in the past.