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So, this argument came up today:

Eldar Dark Reaper exarch power "Fast Shot"

He may add +1 to the number of shots fired by his weapon (so, for example, Heavy 2 becomes Heavy 3).

Question is, can the Dark Reaper exarch use this power when firing the Krakstorm Missiles on the Fortress of Redemption?

Also, wanted to add this in as I was looking into it further -
Pg 96 of the BRB -

If a building is occupied, a model within can choose to fire one of the emplaced weapons instead of his own. Use the firing model's ballistic skill and the line of sight of the weapon. All relevant special rules of the firing model and the weapon are used.

emphasis mine.

 Amanax wrote:
So, this argument came up today:

Eldar Dark Reaper exarch power "Fast Shot"

He may add +1 to the number of shots fired by his weapon (so, for example, Heavy 2 becomes Heavy 3).

Question is, can the Dark Reaper exarch use this power when firing the Krakstorm Missiles on the Fortress of Redemption?

I'd gladly say no, as the emplaced gun is not "his" weapon

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

 Amanax wrote:
So, this argument came up today:

Eldar Dark Reaper exarch power "Fast Shot"

He may add +1 to the number of shots fired by his weapon (so, for example, Heavy 2 becomes Heavy 3).

Question is, can the Dark Reaper exarch use this power when firing the Krakstorm Missiles on the Fortress of Redemption?

I'd gladly say no, as the emplaced gun is not "his" weapon

Figured that would come up. Been trying to find anywhere in the book that states what defines a weapon as "his" weapon. Is it one he came with? Is it one he is firing? So far, no luck.

I would say he can, since the rule allows him to use all his special rules.

I'd gladly say no, as the emplaced gun is not "his" weapon

Hardly conclusive, since at the time of its writing the only weapons he could possibly fire were his own weapons.

 Ghaz wrote:

I'd gladly say no, as the emplaced gun is not "his" weapon

Hardly conclusive, since at the time of its writing the only weapons he could possibly fire were his own weapons.

For emplaced weapons are they not given the option to fire it instead of one of their own?

BRB is in my friends car atm >.< sad sad day.

The OP has the rule in his post.

Fragile wrote:
The OP has the rule in his post.

Well that changes things alot, it wasn't initially there when I read/posted. I'd like to change sides of the fence based on the new information ^^

I don't play DE but if the rule gives an example in the rule itself, it pretty much opens the door to the possibility that the character would be using weapons other than those available to him at the time it was written. Otherwise they could have just straight up said weapon option A = +1 and Weapon option B =+1. Instead they gave an example and an emplaced gun for all intents and purposes appears to work as equipment of the model, not a separate unit as some perceive it to be. You measure LOS and use abilities based on the model firing it, not the LOS of the emplaced gun.

"instead of his own"

THe emplaced weapons are not, therefore, "his own" weapons

nosferatu1001 wrote:
"instead of his own"

THe emplaced weapons are not, therefore, "his own" weapons

That interpretation of RAW aside, not taking away from the fact that you seem to have nailed it as the RAW, one could also argue that female models must not be able to fire them manually as they are not a he and cannot fire it instead of her own. Then you also have to feel for the poor androgynous necrons...

I'd still play it as yes he can given it states explicitly that they are allowed to use any special rules while firing them, it just makes sense given I can't think of any other rule that affects a model while firing that wouldn't be used while firing an emplaced weapon. Can you?

The Exarch fires, since the gun emplacement/emplaced gun isn't firing itself.

He uses it as his weapon to shoot.

You want to argue whether 'his weapon' meant 'his original (set of) weapon(s)' or 'anything which he may shoot with'?

I would say yes - the Fast Shot rule is clearly on the model, and not on, say, the Exarch's Reaper, and the emplaced weapons rule says "All relevent special rules from the gun and the model."

 Bausk wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
"instead of his own"

THe emplaced weapons are not, therefore, "his own" weapons

That interpretation of RAW aside, not taking away from the fact that you seem to have nailed it as the RAW, one could also argue that female models must not be able to fire them manually as they are not a he and cannot fire it instead of her own. Then you also have to feel for the poor androgynous necrons...

I'd still play it as yes he can given it states explicitly that they are allowed to use any special rules while firing them, it just makes sense given I can't think of any other rule that affects a model while firing that wouldn't be used while firing an emplaced weapon. Can you?

He and His are also non gender specific pronouns, as well as gender specific ones. No issue there.

Shandara - no, the argument is that the gun emplacement rules state you are not firing your own weapons in order to fire the gun emplacement. You have to argue against the very specific wording that the gun emplacement is NOT "his' weapon, and RAW you are unable to do so.

 Bausk wrote:
female models must not be able to fire them manually as they are not a he

Since the original language used to form the rule is English, the default neutral pronoun has always been the masculine thanks to the Romans. In fact, other less diluted Latin based languages still refer to a group of mixed genders with the masculine form, even if there is but a single male.

Sweet, so glad you decided to focus on the joke rather than the answer and following question. Ace.

St. Jebus wrote:
I would say yes - the Fast Shot rule is clearly on the model, and not on, say, the Exarch's Reaper, and the emplaced weapons rule says "All relevent special rules from the gun and the model."

It's not a special rule though, it's a power.

Dang it, my Exarch actually was converted to hold the weapon of another model... so now I can't use fast shot because it's not "his weapon"...

Seriously though, your digging a lil too deep into RAWville here. If he is using an emplaced weapon it's his weapon to fire.

 Kevin949 wrote:

St. Jebus wrote:
I would say yes - the Fast Shot rule is clearly on the model, and not on, say, the Exarch's Reaper, and the emplaced weapons rule says "All relevent special rules from the gun and the model."

It's not a special rule though, it's a power.

Yeah no. Exarch powers are special rules. Destructor is a (psychic) power.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Kevin949 wrote:

St. Jebus wrote:
I would say yes - the Fast Shot rule is clearly on the model, and not on, say, the Exarch's Reaper, and the emplaced weapons rule says "All relevent special rules from the gun and the model."

It's not a special rule though, it's a power.

Yeah no. Exarch powers are special rules. Destructor is a (psychic) power.

Actually no, Exarch powers are optional powers that exarchs can upgrade to have. Not all powers are psychic powers

Actually re-reading the rules for Gun Emplacements, it says nothing about using any special rules the model has, only that it follows the normal rules for Shooting. The whole special rule thing only happens when manually firing emplaced weapons.

Happyjew wrote:
Actually re-reading the rules for Gun Emplacements, it says nothing about using any special rules the model has, only that it follows the normal rules for Shooting. The whole special rule thing only happens when manually firing emplaced weapons.

Which is actually what he was talking about [Emplaced Weapons].


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Kevin949 wrote:

St. Jebus wrote:
I would say yes - the Fast Shot rule is clearly on the model, and not on, say, the Exarch's Reaper, and the emplaced weapons rule says "All relevent special rules from the gun and the model."

It's not a special rule though, it's a power.

Yeah no. Exarch powers are special rules. Destructor is a (psychic) power.

Ok, does he have to make a roll or anything for this "special rule power" to be effective?

Yeah my bad. I just noticed the thread was emplaced weapons and not my weapon emplacements. My one buddy is not going to be happy that his quad-gun will no longer ignore cover.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kevin949 wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Kevin949 wrote:

St. Jebus wrote:
I would say yes - the Fast Shot rule is clearly on the model, and not on, say, the Exarch's Reaper, and the emplaced weapons rule says "All relevent special rules from the gun and the model."

It's not a special rule though, it's a power.

Yeah no. Exarch powers are special rules. Destructor is a (psychic) power.

Ok, does he have to make a roll or anything for this "special rule power" to be effective?

No but neither does a Warlock with Embolden/Enhance/Conceal or a Shadowseer.

Happyjew wrote:
Actually re-reading the rules for Gun Emplacements, it says nothing about using any special rules the model has, only that it follows the normal rules for Shooting. The whole special rule thing only happens when manually firing emplaced weapons.

One model in base contact with the gun emplacement can
fire it instead of his own weapon, following the normal rules
for shooting.

No reason a model with special rules can't use them with Gun Emplacements. He is still firing the weapon.

Happyjew wrote:
Yeah my bad. I just noticed the thread was emplaced weapons and not my weapon emplacements. My one buddy is not going to be happy that his quad-gun will no longer ignore cover.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kevin949 wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Kevin949 wrote:

St. Jebus wrote:
I would say yes - the Fast Shot rule is clearly on the model, and not on, say, the Exarch's Reaper, and the emplaced weapons rule says "All relevent special rules from the gun and the model."

It's not a special rule though, it's a power.

Yeah no. Exarch powers are special rules. Destructor is a (psychic) power.

Ok, does he have to make a roll or anything for this "special rule power" to be effective?

No but neither does a Warlock with Embolden/Enhance/Conceal or a Shadowseer.

Right-o. Just typically when someone says "can my model use X power for Y thing" it usually denotes some psychic power that requires a psychic test to use. Even still, I'm in the camp it wouldn't benefit the emplaced weapon or weapon emplacements. I know someone mentioned earlier about how when the rule was written he didn't have other weapons to fire that weren't his but by the same point they could have easily just said "Add +1 shots when an exarch shoots". So, just sayin is all.

Wait, so you are saying that Telion firing a quadgun will not be able to pick out models although it is still twin-linked BS5?

leohart wrote:
Wait, so you are saying that Telion firing a quadgun will not be able to pick out models although it is still twin-linked BS5?

That's very different.

Pg. 63 - "If any of your character's shots roll 6 To Hit, these are Precision Shots."

 BlueDagger wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Kevin949 wrote:

St. Jebus wrote:
I would say yes - the Fast Shot rule is clearly on the model, and not on, say, the Exarch's Reaper, and the emplaced weapons rule says "All relevent special rules from the gun and the model."

It's not a special rule though, it's a power.

Yeah no. Exarch powers are special rules. Destructor is a (psychic) power.

Actually no, Exarch powers are optional powers that exarchs can upgrade to have. Not all powers are psychic powers

On a second read-through I can see where you're coming from. The problem, though, is that all the Exarch Powers are also special rules, as opposed to Special Rules (capitalized). I'd argue that (lowercase) special rules include stuff like Exarch Powers because it's referring to any rules other than the standard rules, which would include the Exarch Powers. Had it been (uppercase) Special Rules I'd agree with you, but as it is I'd interpret it as GW telling us that any rules that affect the firing of the weapon in question are used, which includes Exarch Powers.

 Kevin949 wrote:

leohart wrote:
Wait, so you are saying that Telion firing a quadgun will not be able to pick out models although it is still twin-linked BS5?

That's very different.

Pg. 63 - "If any of your character's shots roll 6 To Hit, these are Precision Shots."

Well if he rolls a 6 he will get Precision Shots. Just that Telion has a special rule that makes all his shots Precision Shots. If he fires the Quad-gun, are all his shots Precision Shots?

leohart wrote:

 Kevin949 wrote:

leohart wrote:
Wait, so you are saying that Telion firing a quadgun will not be able to pick out models although it is still twin-linked BS5?

That's very different.

Pg. 63 - "If any of your character's shots roll 6 To Hit, these are Precision Shots."

Well if he rolls a 6 he will get Precision Shots. Just that Telion has a special rule that makes all his shots Precision Shots. If he fires the Quad-gun, are all his shots Precision Shots?

Depends on the wording of the special rule, if it says "his weapon" or something similar to that, then no it shouldn't work. If it just says something like "All shots count as precision shots" then sure.

The only actual point of contention with some rules and firing emplacements (either one) is when the rule in question references "his" or "their" in the possessive sense.