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Anyone else think rhinos should get front armour 12? There's not much use to them at the moment, sure they're cheap but they die very easily against a lot of weapons. Making them slightly more durable (as well as a modest increase in points) might see them on the table more.

Vehicles are also a lot less durable in general than they used to be. A wall of chimeras dies much faster than it did in 5th.

GW certainly seems to have overreacted to Vehicles in 5th - the all too familiar Design Studio pendulum effect strikes again.

Along with, you know, a desire to sell shedloads of sparkly new flyers too!

Well, how many points are we talking? 40? 45?

I could see a slight price increase working, but it doesn't seem like Rhinos themselves, just cheap transports in general that were gimped.

I agree with this STRONGLY!

 Testify wrote:
Anyone else think rhinos should get front armour 12?

No.

 ph34r wrote:

 Testify wrote:
Anyone else think rhinos should get front armour 12?

No.

My thoughts exactly.

 ph34r wrote:

 Testify wrote:
Anyone else think rhinos should get front armour 12?

No.

...
why?

 Testify wrote:

 ph34r wrote:

 Testify wrote:
Anyone else think rhinos should get front armour 12?

No.

...
why?

Why should they?

Can people not see my original post?

 Testify wrote:
Can people not see my original post?

You want Rhinos to be Chimeras?

No..........just no

Ravendove wrote:

 Testify wrote:
Can people not see my original post?

You want Rhinos to be Chimeras?

I smell sarcasm It seems more like the Metal Bawkses are becoming a little more "metal-ier". I mean, he's not exactly suggesting we add an earthshaker cannon to your basic rhino. I think Front AV 12 is a good idea, but it really depends on the point cost. Wouldn't want to unbalance the game now, would we....we'll leave that to GW

It would be much more "logical" (not in game terms, only fluff-wise) to give AV 11 to chimeras side armour (12 would seem a bit high) instead of changing rhinos. Maybe Razorbacks with 12Front AV would make more sense

Rhinos are not supposed to go where's fighting's really thick, they're just supposed to get the Marines in fighting range of the enemy.
If Marines want to assault, they use jetpacks, Land Raiders and such ...

Rhinos are light APC, Chimera are LAV, they ought to have different armour values

I'm not really feeling this. There would need to be a substantial point increse for Rhinos as well. It violates the <32 points of armor rule that everything you can fire out of appears to have. Not sure if that's an actual thing or just me reading too much into mechanics, but...

TanKoL wrote:
It would be much more "logical" (not in game terms, only fluff-wise) to give AV 11 to chimeras side armour (12 would seem a bit high) instead of changing rhinos. Maybe Razorbacks with 12Front AV would make more sense

Rhinos are not supposed to go where's fighting's really thick, they're just supposed to get the Marines in fighting range of the enemy.
If Marines want to assault, they use jetpacks, Land Raiders and such ...

Rhinos are light APC, Chimera are LAV, they ought to have different armour values

 daedalus wrote:
I'm not really feeling this. There would need to be a substantial point increse for Rhinos as well. It violates the <32 points of armor rule that everything you can fire out of appears to have. Not sure if that's an actual thing or just me reading too much into mechanics, but...

Yeah, normally I'm cool with most things provided the point cost is right, but Rhinos at AV12 is a bit out of theme for their role. AV12 Razorbacks would fit more, they are more of a AFV like the chimera. Give em a 5-10 point increase and it should be right, would fit the role and cost for dependable transport and support in a combat area. More importantly A cheap limited use alternative to the land raider without the extra bells and whistles.

Razorbacks I could see as AV 12 due to the differences in role and the reduced troop capacity, but not the Rhino. The one that bugs me is that the Rhino derivatives don't keep Repair.

I guess when it comes to the Rhino, is the OP willing to accept reducing it's crew to Toughness 3 to help preserve the game balance?

Jefffar wrote:
Razorbacks I could see as AV 12 due to the differences in role and the reduced troop capacity, but not the Rhino. The one that bugs me is that the Rhino derivatives don't keep Repair.

I guess when it comes to the Rhino, is the OP willing to accept reducing it's crew to Toughness 3 to help preserve the game balance?

My guess is "no, I just want my rhinos to have the best of all worlds SM are underpowered buff pls"

Perhaps dedicated transports AV11 and less should not count as separate killpoints.

I would say no. Even for my 50 point Rhinos in the BT I would still not want AV 12 armor. When I compare it to many other races, one of the only things that SM lack is a transport with high front armor that is cheap. This is made up for by resilient troops. My Eldar would be a bit upset if a 40 point Rhino was as durable from a head on attack as my best Tanks. That small little gap in AV is fine in this situation for balancing purposes. If anything, a Chimera should be AV11.

Attomsk wrote:
Perhaps dedicated transports AV11 and less should not count as separate killpoints.

This might actually bring rhinos back to the table. You'd also have to make it that it can't contest objectives for it to fly with most people. Flaw for a merit and all that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Farseer Mael Dannan wrote:
I would say no. Even for my 50 point Rhinos in the BT I would still not want AV 12 armor. When I compare it to many other races, one of the only things that SM lack is a transport with high front armor that is cheap. This is made up for by resilient troops. My Eldar would be a bit upset if a 40 point Rhino was as durable from a head on attack as my best Tanks. That small little gap in AV is fine in this situation for balancing purposes. If anything, a Chimera should be AV11.

Because paying almost double for a chimera warrants an AV reduction...wait what?

The distinction should be APC and AFV. Reduction in AV is its a skimer (unless its a heavy skimmer) because heavy things tend not to be so maneuverable. Skimmers all get jink now IIRC so less armour doe not mean more vulnerable in a round about way. I agree that Rhinos should definatly not be altered at all but a Razorback is an AFV and should have an increased survivability, increasing the cost would be a given and they would fit in that mid range AV12 slot that isn't a tank but is still a combat vehicle. Its not an assault vehicle and doesn't have the armour or firepower options to compete with a predator as a tank. I'd like to see a razor back style AFV added to chaos too but hey.

I like my 35 pt rhinos, even if with 11 F/S armor. Seriously, it gives the game a nice "stepping" process to different armor values.

Light vehicles? Av 10
Medium Transport? Av 11
More resilient/skimmer Transport? Av12
Battle Tank? front AV 13
Land Raider? AV 14

11 still makes a difference from 10. The razorback idea is kinda neat, though, though still probably not a good idea. Rhinos are one thing I think remain fairly balanced, at least in the new codexes.

I think that extra amour could do a +1 to the amour.

 Hillbilly wrote:
I think that extra amour could do a +1 to the amour.

If it was just the front armor, I'd be ok with that. All around? too much. Though seriously, I don't wanna deal with AV 14 predators and Vindicators - maybe just limit the upgrades, or make it a unique/differently named upgrade.

There could be a commonly available upgrade to vehicles called "ablative armor" a bit like the necron thingy
+1 AV (up to a maximum of 13) that is removed after the first penetrating
would cost quite a bunch, not just 5pts though

It always bugged me that a drop pod was heavier than the rhino, a tank.

Also why is a drop pod (which is automated, not crewed by space marines) BS 4? everything else in the game that is automated is BS 2.

Spirit of Machine blah blah blah Space marine grade
But yes, it is ridiculous that a drop pod has AV12, should be more at AV10 once having deployed its payload

 evildrspock wrote:
I like my 35 pt rhinos, even if with 11 F/S armor. Seriously, it gives the game a nice "stepping" process to different armor values.

Light vehicles? Av 10
Medium Transport? Av 11
More resilient/skimmer Transport? Av12
Battle Tank? front AV 13
Land Raider? AV 14

11 still makes a difference from 10. The razorback idea is kinda neat, though, though still probably not a good idea. Rhinos are one thing I think remain fairly balanced, at least in the new codexes.

Battle tank is AV 14 dude.AV 11/12 is generally regarded as "light" armour.

well it all depends, question of semantics there

AV14 is Heavy Tank (think Tiger / Churchill)
AV13 is Medium Tank (T34 / Sherman / Mark IV)
AV12 is Light-ish Tank Heavy APC
AV11 is Light Tank, APC
AV10 is Armored Car

but that's my point of view, the historical model has a huge variation regarding side armours depending on models too ...

 Testify wrote:
Anyone else think rhinos should get front armour 12? There's not much use to them at the moment, sure they're cheap but they die very easily against a lot of weapons. Making them slightly more durable (as well as a modest increase in points) might see them on the table more.

Vehicles are also a lot less durable in general than they used to be. A wall of chimeras dies much faster than it did in 5th.

Honestly, they work perfectly for their intended purpose (Transporting Troops) and their points cost.

35pts gets you a guaranteed 18" move with relative safety in one turn. Rhinos got better in 6th by the simple fact that they now work better in getting your troops into position faster.

@6^ - You don't feel that it would require heavier armor to fall from orbit and then survive the impact than it would to transport troops around the battlefield?

paidinfull wrote:


@6^ - You don't feel that it would require heavier armor to fall from orbit and then survive the impact than it would to transport troops around the battlefield?

No.