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Okay dakka, I have read the FAQ for the CSM hell drake stating they basically get a 360 arc of fire (LOS) for the baleflamer. That being said, what about other models with similar weaponry such as the necron doom scythe (only difference is its a beam instead of a template, but same mechanic technically: 12" any where and place template/draw the line after the roll) Also, why bother with a ruling that basically says "screw the rules, ima a flying chicken!!" against LOS and wound allocation. IDK, just seems weird that they gave a specific exception to the only flier with a torrent weapon, which basically makes the fliers normally restrictive arc of fire because of its movement pointless.

As a side note: no I'm not a but-hurt Necron player wantign my flier better. Hell, if anything im a future CSM (building a corrupted semi DA army curretly) that went into CSM knowing they didnt have the "ward" stigma and I wouldnt get dirty looks just from placing my codex on the table, and I dont want dirty looks from building a list that includes a helldrake (personally I think the models awesome, but some people dont). Now, I fell liek the model will have the same hate as the Nightscythes now ignoring CaB....

/rant on

Turret. TURRET.

Why in the world do so many people either:
A) Spell the word with an "n" I.E. Turrent
B) Think that the word is torrent!?

Why is this a thing!?

/rant off

Where is the question here...? It sounds like a complaint thread.

Cheesedoodler wrote:
/rant on

Turret. TURRET.

Why in the world do so many people either:
A) Spell the word with an "n" I.E. Turrent
B) Think that the word is torrent!?

Why is this a thing!?

/rant off

Where is the question here...? It sounds like a complaint thread.

The Baleflamer uses the special rule "Torrent" to resolve it's shot.

You definitely sound butt-hurt. CSM have ONE thing that is amazing in their codex. Everything else is "good" at best. Let them have that one thing that makes them competitive.

I too wonder why a dragon that has a long neck that can actuate can use that neck to look around in every direction like I, a normal person, do every day.

I mean, it’s a dragon and they aren't real. Why do they get to do things that real people and animals do? I mean, it's almost like GW look at the model and decided to treat it like a real creature and not arbitrarily treat it like a metal space craft with a fixed forward facing weapon. Very strange...

In fairness, ruling either way would be equally arbitrary and equally valid. Whether they decided that the neck isn't that well-articulated or how they did rule it. Fluff can easily justify either.

I think all the problems involving the Heldrake up until this FAQ were involved with what exactly WAS it's LoS, and whether or not Torrent could be placed and/or affect models outside of LoS. At least that's what I filtered out from all the threads on the subject here. Prior to the FAQ, I can't think of anyone who was shooting either of the Heldrakes weapons at anything behind it, only things that were roughly ahead of it. Most of the 'fights' were whether this was 45 or 180.

Now with the FAQ, they have changed it to state that it is a Turret weapon. To me the big fight is that we now have a vehicle with a weapon mount/barrel (the Mouth), and we no longer measure range/Los from that point. This extends beyond the Baleflamer (which is kinda funny since it can now essentially Fart on units behind it!), but also makes the Hades Autocannon slightly more attractive cause it can now fire at models behind it as well. This makes it easier to hit the rear of vehicles simply by flying over it, and bringing in flyers behind it to counter the Heldrake only gets around the Vector Strike. Till now only the Stormraven, and arguably the Doomscythe had this ability. It's part of the reason flyers were given the ability to hover.

That's my 2 bitz worth.

The Helldrake really was problematic with its weapon mount. The normal rules have been look at the model and see how far the weapon can turn. And in the case of fixed weapons they would get a 45 degree cone of fire.

So given that, the Helldrake was just odd. You couldn't really tell.


I think giving it 360 degree fire was a tad excessive. I would personally have just given it a 270 degree arc. But 360 makes just as much sense as any other decision.

You definitely sound butt-hurt. CSM have ONE thing that is amazing in their codex. Everything else is "good" at best. Let them have that one thing that makes them competitive.

way to not read the post. I specifically said that I don't want "lols i win" cheese in my CSM codex. You say "good at best" codex, I say, "its not obviously broken with 3+ units that are auto take and win games (looking at you flycron spammers) that breaks the game and makes it just not fun to play with or against." Flyers are intended to be fast moving vehicles that make semi "bombing runs" and making it to were a flyer completely ignores this and fires 360 degrees COMPLETELY defeats the purpose of the zooming rules, other than to give them HTH....I play Necrons and am building a CSM army that uses DA models tying in the Fallen and their fluff. So, I am honestly wondering how you perceive " Please don't buff my codex into OPness like >insert Matt Ward codex here<" as butt-hurt? I can understand calling someone butt-hurt when they complain over every little nerf and skinned knee to their codex, especially when their codex is top tier ( Had an dissagreement with a GK player that his army needed a buff of massive point drops and Psyammo effect Psycannons, lolwut). I really dont understand your logic process. Your insulting a person who is happy wit hthe codex he has, and would prefer not to have it buffed to a ridiculous level. Honestly, is there any reason NOT to spam helldrakes anymore? 360 LOS is too much, you want realistic articulation as if it can turn its neck? give it 180 degrees LOS. Unless it can stick its own head out of its arse, shooting behind itself is rediculous.

Also, the predominate question in this thread was how does the FAQ ruling on this weapon/model effect other weapons/models that use a similar mechanic. The Doom Scythe is the only one that comes to mind, but I don't have much experience with codexes outside GK, Cron, Tau, and what little I know of CSM at this moment.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

I too wonder why a dragon that has a long neck that can actuate can use that neck to look around in every direction like I, a normal person, do every day.

I mean, it’s a dragon and they aren't real. Why do they get to do things that real people and animals do? I mean, it's almost like GW look at the model and decided to treat it like a real creature and not arbitrarily treat it like a metal space craft with a fixed forward facing weapon. Very strange...

The moment you spin your head 360 around come and find me. Hell, excluding owls, find me an animal. 360 degrees is ridiculous. I can see maybe 180 to give it the "neck" turning to the sides functionality to soothe the "realists" in the crowd, but anything beyond that is starting to get shady. Also, whos to say that the Death Ray can swivel around side to side or even backwards? Its stuck onto the bottom of the hull by the design of the model, just like the helldrake's neck. Nowhere in the Codex or BRB does it say the Death Ray is a Hull-Mounted weapon, its just assumed to be. And according to how it works fluff and rules wise, it would have to be able to turn side to side AT LEAST.

Overlord. You're asking for real world examples. Well you named one in your rant. Also it doesn't need 360 just 180. There are people on earth who can turn their heads 180. The praying mantis can do 180 either way also.

I play with two Chaos players who are now both running these bad boy's, they IMHO are just as scary as kron flyers but without the ability to carry scoring units. Add in a 5++ and a regen roll and the model is damn near OP.

If you want to know why the flames can shoot all around watch The Hobbit, the opening dwarf scene will explain it all.

I am a bit biased with my answer as I play CSM and I like the Helldrake.
It was hard as the model had an angled neck and head to measure where its arc was and people that like to mode like myself would change each helldrake to make them look different and they the necks would be going every which way. What I would do was mark the front of the base and tell people before the game started that this was the front for weapon arc purposes.
I think since this flyer is kind of a mix of a vehicle and flying monstrous creature (fluff wise it is a daemon forced into slavery of the machine by warp smiths), I think it makes sense to give it a 360 degree firing arc as flying monstrous creatures can do this in their firing phase (nids, daemons etc.).
I think it was a fair ruling. I also think that the new codex is cool, but far from ultra competitive, so I don't think this rule will break anything even if someone spams 3 of them in a game. The two codexes before is (necrons and Gk) are still more competitive than CSM and the Dark Angels though not super cheap, have some wicked good builds in them for competitive play.
I don't think other codex players have that much to worry about. IMO

I've never had an issue with the Heldrake either, and while I do think the 360 is over the top, it's not the frustrating thing about the FAQ. It's the measuring from the Base and not the weapon that virtually every other vehicle in the game has to do. While not game breaking, was fairly unnecessary, other than to simplify when they do actually fire behind them. Firing out their tail end I think is going to become the more common method of shooting them now.

 Akar wrote:
It's the measuring from the Base and not the weapon that virtually every other vehicle in the game has to do. While not game breaking, was fairly unnecessary, other than to simplify when they do actually fire behind them. Firing out their tail end I think is going to become the more common method of shooting them now.

Where else would you measure from? The base is the only spot that makes sense.

If you've put the Heldrake together, the weapon mount is in the mouth. According to the LoS you measure LoS from this point. Other than that we use the measurement rules from the closest point on each model per the measuring rule. To my knowledge, this is the first vehicle to measure Range and LoS from the Base, and not the weapon mount.

I not disagreeing that it makes sense, now that it's 360. Just have to remember that this has it's own LoS rule that doesn't work like others. It's not something that I feel I need to look up the person who FAQ'd this, then rape em over the coals for it, it's just more of a /shrug /sigh thing.

clively wrote:

 Akar wrote:
It's the measuring from the Base and not the weapon that virtually every other vehicle in the game has to do. While not game breaking, was fairly unnecessary, other than to simplify when they do actually fire behind them. Firing out their tail end I think is going to become the more common method of shooting them now.

Where else would you measure from? The base is the only spot that makes sense.

The weapon mount, which is in the mouth. Like every other vehicle

nosferatu1001 wrote:

clively wrote:

 Akar wrote:
It's the measuring from the Base and not the weapon that virtually every other vehicle in the game has to do. While not game breaking, was fairly unnecessary, other than to simplify when they do actually fire behind them. Firing out their tail end I think is going to become the more common method of shooting them now.

Where else would you measure from? The base is the only spot that makes sense.

The weapon mount, which is in the mouth. Like every other vehicle

You don't measure from the gun for flying monstrous creatures but from the base and as the Helldrake is a mix of FMC and vehicle, I think it is kind of fitting.

It is considerably more Vehicle than FMC. As in, in every way but one.

not really Meteoric descent like vector strike and now 360Deg fire... 2 ways like a MC. And if you are a fluff follower, the machine is technically a daemon trapped in the metal skeleton, besides CSM and chaos nothing has vehicles like this, they all have pilots, thus making it more like a MC.

Yes, and in every other way (movement, allowance to fire, flat out capability, AV not S/T/W/I etc) it is a vehicle.

I fully understand the point you are making, however it is STILL considerably more vehicle than MC

I see what you are saying, but it is a dragon with a long neck why can't it turn its head anyway to fire, jut like a flying daemon or Nid... I know you will say it is a vehicle, but I would argue it is more... sorry

And your argument is factually incorrect, as it is a vehicle in about 5 times the ways it is an MC. Fact.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
And your argument is factually incorrect, as it is a vehicle in about 5 times the ways it is an MC. Fact.

OMG what is it with you and fact, have you ever heard of scientific theory, do you know hypothesis, fact, theory... Take a chill pill.. You can state your opinions, whether they are fact well that is a matter of your opinion just as everyone is entitled too. But you fact monger, I am glad you have all the answers you must be god...

nosferatu1001 wrote:
And your argument is factually incorrect, as it is a vehicle in about 5 times the ways it is an MC. Fact.

Actually I would say it is 100% more vehicle than FMC. it just has some exceptions to the normal vehicle rules, similar to how a MC has some exceptions to the normal Infantry rules.

 Eiluj The Farseer wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
And your argument is factually incorrect, as it is a vehicle in about 5 times the ways it is an MC. Fact.

OMG what is it with you and fact, have you ever heard of scientific theory, do you know hypothesis, fact, theory... Take a chill pill.. You can state your opinions, whether they are fact well that is a matter of your opinion just as everyone is entitled too. But you fact monger, I am glad you have all the answers you must be god...

Lol. Whether something is a fact isn't a matter of opinion.
It moves like a vehicle.
It has the profile of a vehicle.
It is damaged like a vehicle.
It has all the rules of a vehicle.
Versus...
It can vector strike.
You measure from the base shooting.

4-2 in favor of it being more vehicle than FMC. These are not opinions. These are facts.

Not to be that guy, but can someone explain to me how saying its a turret converts directly into "has a 360 degree arc of fire".

Sure the vehicle rules on page 72 present an example of a turret where that is the case, but it's not a fact of all turrets, just the same as you can't look at the first diagram and infer a fact about all Sponsons for it, as shown by the second diagram.

Similarly, measuring distances from the base doesn't change the standard LOS rules which tell you to use the weapon mount.

I don't see why them calling it a turret mount or saying to measure from the base changes anything, you still determine LOS from the weapon mounting, based on the range of movement it has or appears to have.

Is there a turret in this game that doesn't have a 360 degree vision?

Off the top of my head, the Baneblade has one in a shallow recess that limits its rotation.

edit: oh and the Land Raider's front weapon on all variants.

Doesn't the FAQ say to use the base for range and LOS measurement?

overlordweasel wrote:
The moment you spin your head 360 around come and find me. Hell, excluding owls, find me an animal. 360 degrees is ridiculous. I can see maybe 180 to give it the "neck" turning to the sides functionality to soothe the "realists" in the crowd, but anything beyond that is starting to get shady.

Let me turn that back at you. Find me an animal with a long neck that can't look behind itself. Owls are no exception, most birds can do that, tucking their head into their wing is standard practice. You want more examples? Duck. Egret. Flamingo. Swan. Goose. Birds are of course the most appropriate comparison, but there's also giraffes, llamas, even some turtles and tortoises.

Spellbound wrote:
Doesn't the FAQ say to use the base for range and LOS measurement?

no

Treat the Heldrake’s ranged weapon as a Turret Mounted
Weapon, measuring all ranges from the edge of the Heldrake’s
base nearest to the target unit.