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At my local club a friend always fields the same unit of SW's at 1500pts or more;
Logan Grimnar
6-8 WG Termi's with storm shields and thunder hammers/chainfists
Arjac Rockfist
Rune Priest

That unit comes in around 900-1000 points, and the only thing that we found to kill it was pretty much an entire DA army, even 5 DK's only dented it to a degree, and 80 ork attacks just bouced off!

How the heck do you kill these super OP Murder Squads and others like them in other forces

Mitranekh the Omniscient wrote:
At my local club a friend always fields the same unit of SW's at 1500pts or more;
Logan Grimnar
6-8 WG Termi's with storm shields and thunder hammers/chainfists
Arjac Rockfist
Rune Priest

That unit comes in around 900-1000 points, and the only thing that we found to kill it was pretty much an entire DA army, even 5 DK's only dented it to a degree, and 80 ork attacks just bouced off!

How the heck do you kill these super OP Murder Squads and others like them in other forces

Granted, Deathstar units like this are horrible to try and kill, but as you have pointed out it is almost a 1k unit in a 1500 pt game, just ignore it. Take out his other scoring units (not sure if that Deathstar scores with any of the special characters) and beat him on objectives. Don't try to play Deathstars at their own game, you'll lose.

A daemon prince with the black mace would crush this deathstar

Eldercaveman wrote:

Mitranekh the Omniscient wrote:
At my local club a friend always fields the same unit of SW's at 1500pts or more;
Logan Grimnar
6-8 WG Termi's with storm shields and thunder hammers/chainfists
Arjac Rockfist
Rune Priest

That unit comes in around 900-1000 points, and the only thing that we found to kill it was pretty much an entire DA army, even 5 DK's only dented it to a degree, and 80 ork attacks just bouced off!

How the heck do you kill these super OP Murder Squads and others like them in other forces

Granted, Deathstar units like this are horrible to try and kill, but as you have pointed out it is almost a 1k unit in a 1500 pt game, just ignore it. Take out his other scoring units (not sure if that Deathstar scores with any of the special characters) and beat him on objectives. Don't try to play Deathstars at their own game, you'll lose.

In this case WG Termi's are troops thanks to Logan, and are ably supported by long fangs and a vindicator as well as troops. Good advice though, thanks (although its easier said than done, particularly in kill point missions)

I run somthing similar, 13 models in a 1,500 point list. Its are to kill off, but when you have Objective based games, to win I must attack you!
This leaves my Objectives protected by Bjorn and Njal with his 5 Wolf Guard, while Logan Arjac and thier 4 Wolf Guard to kill everything else off.

Bring out as many Scoring units that you can and start wing by claming objectives.

Of course there is Plan B:

I agree with the "Shoot them" strategy.

That SW death star unit suffers from having to foot slog. Faced with that, I'd avoid cc with that unit and use flyers to hunt the vindicators. Then, keep them at a distance and ping of death from your army and your flyer(s). That is how I've managed to deal with SW Termies in the past without taking any losses from them.

The Dark Angels choice would be to go with a Dakka Baner

The Ork units that can do alot is Burner Boys and that one with the random [1d3?] long range shots.
just keep hiting them with 30 model Grot mobs, they can only kill so many a turn. You know Speed Bumps

If I saw that I'd be very very happy. Surround with poisoned gants, shoot and assault. I'm wounding on a rerollable 4+ with a Tervi nearby, and I figure I'll do enough wounds that he won't ever dig his way out of the tide of gant. In 1500 he'd probably have some LFs, one GH squad and maybe a vindicator... My Flyrant can deal with those.

 jifel wrote:
If I saw that I'd be very very happy. Surround with poisoned gants, shoot and assault. I'm wounding on a rerollable 4+ with a Tervi nearby, and I figure I'll do enough wounds that he won't ever dig his way out of the tide of gant. In 1500 he'd probably have some LFs, one GH squad and maybe a vindicator... My Flyrant can deal with those.

Genestealers could also do well, these will making make a bunch of 3++ Saves.
Also always have a throw away to feed to Arjac, he hust accept Chalanges

I just played against a loganwing last night, and the key is shooting them with a ton of dakka. Long range first, then get in close to smother terminators in small arms. My eldar guardians brought down over half of the wolf guard terminators I was fighting. When models with storm shields die to ap3+ weapons, the storm shield is wasted. Mass small arms are the primary way to go against T4 3++ squads.

This unit has virtually no shooting, so stay away and pepper it with as much fire as you can. Even bolter fire will bring down terminators if you shoot em enough. Also, a build like that is begging to get into CC, so charging your CC monster unit into it is playing into your opponents wishes. Logan can give the squad preferred enemy and +1 attack, something you really don't want to get mixed up with. Better to run away, kite the unit or feed it a speed bump than assault it head on. There are only a handful of assault units in the game that can really tear this unit apart, and DA do not have said units(genestealers, harlequins, seekers...) But a banner squad for dakka, and any ork to speed bump;gretchin/boys for a tarpit, burnas for forcing wounds...

The third option is to ignore it. It is a single scoring unit, and 2/3rds of the enemy army. Leave it be, and kill the rest. The unit can score a single objective, and has no threat to any enemy outside 18". Just shoot and scoot away, problem solved.

Theres a guy ar ly local GW store who fields that. Have some serious issues against it with my GK but i really want to have a go against him with my nids. tarpit with gants and send my swarmlord and doom in. I think the Swarmlord should be a decent matchup for for Arjac and logan if he does decide to challenge, Especially if i get iron arm.

Speaking for CSM, I'd surround them with cultist blobs, and burn the rest with a heldrake.

Almost an auto win.

That is a really, really bad deathstar. It's slow as feth, has no shooting, and has really crap survivability for its points. You don't even to ignore it completely, at 1500pts almost any army should be able to shoot it to death in a turn on two..

If your shooting is weak and you're more focused on CC, you should have better mobility in your CC units, so you can choose where and when to fight.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dalymiddleboro wrote:
A daemon prince with the black mace would crush this deathstar

Please tell me you're not being serious..

Actually I have had great success with my Loganwing and that is because of a few things. It is a Gimmick/One Tick Pony Army and I relies it. I have fun with it and it is not my only build. Also I usually don’t expect it to win, but for some reason it does. One of the other thing is I don’t bring it out every time; I only bring it out 1-3 time a year if that.

Strengths: Logan’s ability to give Preferred Enemy and his Eternal Warrior. Arjac has S10 Attacks and Eternal Warrior. Everybody else has a 3++ Save.

Weaknesses: Logan has a 24” S4 Assault-2 Weapon and is a 4++ Save, if there is an Assault Cannon, its also a 24” Range. Arjac has a 6” Range. Everybody else has 1 Wound.

What to use:
Don’t take Power Axes, Power Fist, Chain Fist or Thunder Hammers, other than Logan the whole thing is I1, Orks are faster! They are only Terminators; just accept they are going to make 2+ Saves. You need to inflict wounds. Go with Power Mauls and Plasma Weapons. Veterans with Combi-Flamers, nothing says I love you like 10d3 Wound Rolls. Feed them Pie, lots of Pie.

Don’t play into the Death Star Game! Stay away from it and make him chase you around. One Assault Cannon and a Storm Bolter is not a threat.

Finally: I would First suggest talking to the guy. Just tell him it is not fun to pay him any more, his Loganwing has become boring. If he says something along the line of “But I am having fun!” just say “Yes you are, but we are not”. If he does not see the problem, then maybe he is a WAAC player it might not be worth playing any more.

Mitranekh the Omniscient wrote:

Logan Wing
How the heck do you kill these super OP Murder Squads?

I've never found something like that be anywhere near "super OP" in fact quite the opposite. They're terribly slow, and have a ton of over priced models. In a 1500pt list, I'd either kite it around (since it couldn't hurt my transports) and kill the other 500pts. Or simply dakka it until he rolls enough 1s.

Deathstars are so passé.

No Anpu42 don't tell him it's not fun, what Mitranekh the Omniscient need to do is take your advise and make it lots of fun.

Sounds like this SW guy has very little else apart from uber unit. If Mitranekh is playing orks he could go down the lines of:
big unit of lootas - outrange (?) the longfangs and vindicators
two big unit of kannons - for the long fangs and vindis
Mek with SAG (out range the world)

Should be able to deal with the support and the SAG should be able to give the deathstar a good mauling. Heck take two.

Fill out the heavy support with a unit of killa kans
Take a deff dread as a troop choice; fire with both and save them for when your big unit of boys finally kommits. (Commits not Kermits) The SW deathstar will take some good its from them before they roll over them.

Then just loads of boys mixture of big and small units of shootas.
They can fire through each other without giving the SWs a better save. The smaller units are just put infront of the deathstar to keep the silly number of shoot shots going each turn.

I agree, telling some one to not play the army they like/enjoy is not ok with me in any shape/form/fashion, and this is coming from the guy who owns every 40k army and plays a different one almost every time I play. If something beats you, adapt. And, like everyone has already pointed out, there are plenty of ways to beat this list.

Mitranekh the Omniscient wrote:
At my local club a friend always fields the same unit of SW's at 1500pts or more;
Logan Grimnar
6-8 WG Termi's with storm shields and thunder hammers/chainfists
Arjac Rockfist
Rune Priest

That unit comes in around 900-1000 points, and the only thing that we found to kill it was pretty much an entire DA army, even 5 DK's only dented it to a degree, and 80 ork attacks just bouced off!

How the heck do you kill these super OP Murder Squads and others like them in other forces

rather terrible. The unit is T4 with a 2+ save. Dakka them to death. The unit has 14-16 wounds, so you need to do 90 wounds to the squad and they will all statistically fail their save. That isn't very hard. DE, orks, DA dakkabanner, Dakka GK, IG can do that in shooting in a few turns at 1500.

further, that unit cannot shoot effectively. It also can only claim one objective and costs so much that you dont have much left in your army.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Jabbdo wrote:
That is a really, really bad deathstar. It's slow as feth, has no shooting, and has really crap survivability for its points. You don't even to ignore it completely, at 1500pts almost any army should be able to shoot it to death in a turn on two..
If your shooting is weak and you're more focused on CC, you should have better mobility in your CC units, so you can choose where and when to fight.

100% same page

terminators don't like drive by shoota boys, or lootas backing them up, with a dakka jet, dakka guns from bikes... and then once the nitty gritty starts... throw your nob bikers and Ghazgull at them...

use waaagh for 2+ ward on ghaz in a challenge (with 5+ fnp), take plenty of PK's... you'll ID his T4 terminators (even if saving on a 3+) while you still get a 5+ cybork and FNP vs his PF hits (and won't be getting ID'd...)

on the charge orks would do... (not even taking into account HoW shooting or non PK attacks, wtf are those?)

20 WS 5 S9 PK attacks hitting on 3's, 13 hits, 10.8 wounds vs T7 and lower. (all of which would cause ID to anything not T5+)... Terminators should fail 3.5~ saves
5 WS 6 S10 PK attacks (no squig) 3 hits, 2.5 wounds (3) Terminators should fail at least 1 save

Then ghazgull well, he would be ghazgull. Don't have his #'s in my head


for 1000...

you could get ghazgul a biker boss with PK bp and cybork/flamer. 9 nob bikers including banner painboy cyborks and like 5 PKs...and a BC.. and 2 bps..

could drop the biker boss, take 10 lootas to shoot them from range first... or 24-25 boys...


i d'know mayne, maybe orks just have it easier on this one I reckon

 Jasper wrote:
No Anpu42 don't tell him it's not fun, what Mitranekh the Omniscient need to do is take your advise and make it lots of fun.

True can be one of those No-Win Situations.

If Payer A is not having Fun there is a problem.
If Player B is not having Fun there is a problem.

I had this with my old DnD group and for years we put off dealing with the problem and now I am with a new DnD group.

This is one of those things though that needs to be brought up or you end up with Player A Tailoring List to the point of obsession just to beat one unit. Once he succeeds in this all of a sudden Player B is having no fun.

I think what I was trying to say is I would let him know what you are doing and why. Who knows it could become a fun set of scenarios or something.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
The problem with ID the Termeis is only two of the have multibles wounds and both of them have EW.

Quanity kills quallity, Ask me boyz!

Death Stars make for a very effective trap for people who aren't thinking clearly. I find that oftentimes when people see a deathstar, they get tunnel vision, think only in terms of how they can kill it. And actively choose to play their opponents game. Its wierd.

The best way to deal with a Death Star is to just let it be. Especially slow close combat death stars.

1) You don't have to kill the deathstar to win- play to the objectives. A single unit can only ever hold one objective. Let them sit on an objective. You can even be especially cheeky and towards the end of the game put juicy units in his charge range. See if he takes the bait and charges off the objective to finally get into close combat. Causing you to win even more. Hilarious. Also remember linebreaker and First Blood.

2) generally the rest of his army will be relatively small, since he is putting over 2/3rds of his points into a single unit. So kill the rest of the army. Once the only unit he has on the table is his deathstar, you can analyze whether you can take it out with a combined attack. Otherwise you will probably win the game anyway.

3) If you absolutely need to deal with the Death Star, or cannot get around it for some reason. Hit it with a better Death Star. As has been pointed out a Big Nob Biker Squad will probably win. 5+ Cybork combined with 5+ FNP is actually only slightly worse than a storm shield, and it is totally off set by the fact that you have 2 wounds to his 1. So look at Nob Bikers. You've got a deathstar that can beat his deathstar in close combat. And you've got a significant speed advantage, so your Bikers get to pick when and where the fight happens. A Biker Boss with an s10 power klaw, and a few Power klaws in the Nobs will give his Termies a beat down or at least an even fight- for considerably fewer points!

Noise Marines and lots of them with a sorceror of slaneesh

I main Eldar and Dark Eldar. I would just laugh at an Army like that (unless they have the Land Raider Hammernator Delivery System as seen on TV for only 3 low payments of $24.99).

Don't let them get within 12in of you and let them use their 2 or 3 bolters and AssCannon, on -1- unit and let them score the F out of -1- objective.

 Exergy wrote:

Mitranekh the Omniscient wrote:
At my local club a friend always fields the same unit of SW's at 1500pts or more;
Logan Grimnar
6-8 WG Termi's with storm shields and thunder hammers/chainfists
Arjac Rockfist
Rune Priest

That unit comes in around 900-1000 points, and the only thing that we found to kill it was pretty much an entire DA army, even 5 DK's only dented it to a degree, and 80 ork attacks just bouced off!

How the heck do you kill these super OP Murder Squads and others like them in other forces

rather terrible. The unit is T4 with a 2+ save. Dakka them to death. The unit has 14-16 wounds, so you need to do 90 wounds to the squad and they will all statistically fail their save. That isn't very hard. DE, orks, DA dakkabanner, Dakka GK, IG can do that in shooting in a few turns at 1500.

further, that unit cannot shoot effectively. It also can only claim one objective and costs so much that you dont have much left in your army.

Best way to do this is to just spam shots with strength 4 or better, and try some psychic powers that cause moar wounds. Special effects like soul blaze seem weak at first, but after a while they really take their toll. (The extra saving rolls are just too much for them).

Great ork orientated advice looks like it's a good shout. My Necrons are yet to tackle this star and I fancy my doomsday ark and Doom Scythe wil between them get it done so long as i can shut the long fangs up (pesky lascannons and split fire), only worry is the lack of cron mobility and the vindicator

Griddlelol wrote:Deathstars are so passé.

Especially close combat ones.

Now a land raider crusader with a 4+ invul save, a techmarine, and a super-boler-salvo banner squad inside. That's what I call a murder unit.

24 TL BS4 Assault 24" S4 Ap5 shots per turn on an invincible carrier? Getting assaulted by scoring thunderhammers if you get too close? Hope you didn't plan on running infantry... or tanks... this game.

Dalymiddleboro wrote:
A daemon prince with the black mace would crush this deathstar

Please tell me you're not being serious..

 Anpu42 wrote:
The Dark Angels choice would be to go with a Dakka Baner

The Ork units that can do alot is Burner Boys and that one with the random [1d3?] long range shots.
just keep hiting them with 30 model Grot mobs, they can only kill so many a turn. You know Speed Bumps

I agree with Burna Boys and Grots but Lootas wouldn't be very good here. Overall, the Orks have plenty of counters to this.

15 Burna Boys in a Battlewagon can flame the whole unit at once to inflict 165 S4 hits. Thats 82 wounds, and 14 failed 2+ saves. Pricetag? Around 300 points. Take three and drop 450 dice on the fethers, then carry on up the field on your merry way.

SAG Meks are AP 2 Pie Plates. They will wreck their gak for 98 points each (SAG, Ammo Runt for re-roll to hit =D). Take Dread Mob allies and use them just to put a third SAG Mek on the table. If you really want to go wild, use FW Junkas and get a total of 11 SAG Guns in your army.

Gretchin Blobs with Runtherds also work. Reduce their attacks while simultaneously blunting their weapons with the bodies of hundreds of Gretchin. Good times.

Zogwart can turn his heroes into Squigs. Too bad he will only get to attempt it once and then be horribly killed.

Deff Dreads are like Terminators that strike first.

Am I the only one that saw this and thought, Play Cron Air and laugh all the way to the bank, fly on blow away the rest of his army , and watch as his 1000 point deathstar looks up at the skies impotently....