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LORDS
Archmage 320
Level 4
Book of Hoeth
Talisman of Pres
Heavens

Loremaster of Hoeth 280
Armour of Caledor

HEROES
Noble 144
Armour of Destiny
Halberd
Shield
BSB

Mage 110
Dispel Scroll
High

CORE
6 Silver Helms 138
Shields

6 Silver Helms 138
Shields

6 Silver Helms 138
Shields

5 Reavers 95
Bows

5 Reavers 95
Bows

SPECIALS
20 Swordsmasters 295
Standard and Musician
Standard of Discipline

20 White Lions 335
Full Command

17 Phoenix Guard 335
Full Command
Banner of the World Dragon

Current plan is to run the level 4 in with the phoenix guard, BSB with the Lions and the Loremaster with the Swordsmasters. The core full of chaff means that I can control the gameplay and with 2 offensive units and a defensive unit that can fight, I will not be struggling for fighty units. Only things that will give me trouble are 1+ saves, against anything bar white lions. That and artillery.

Not a bad list.

Like you say though, artillery could be a problem for you, so find the points to get two Eagles in there somewhere.

I'd also switch the equipment on some of your characters around a bit. I think the Sword of Might + Shield of the Merwyrm combo would work very well on either your BSB or your Loremaster, whichever you value more. This is actually a really cheap way to get a 4++, and you get +1S to boot. I'd also try to fit Khaine's Ring on the Loremaster. It's a nice trick that gives him an extra spell to chuck around, as well as a good way of boosting your Swordmaster's Jedi save to 5++

I'd also combine the Silverhelms a bit. I think a unit of 12 and a unit of 6 would be better. The former makes great use of Martial Prowess and generally does more damage. There are advantages to running three units of six though, so it's up to you.

Secondly, I'd move the BotWD onto the White Lions, and the Razor Banner onto the PG. I wouldn't worry too much about 1+ saves, the White Lions are still knocking off 3 points of save, and your Loremaster has access to Searing Doom as well. The WLs will benefit much more from the BotWD, since they don't have a Ward Save anyway.

BotWD on Phoenix guard seems a waste as does not putting someone with a High magic spell in with them. Likewise the Razorstandard does little for the Lions who already do well against armoured foes. Lions should get BotWD either the Sword masters or Phoenix guard would benefit from the razorstandard more.

Not sure why 12 knights would make good use of martial prowess. 15 would be good but I can see your plan.

Heavens is a weird choice for a lvl 4. High or Life would appear to be the more logical choices particularly with the book. Also the equipment on your characters seems a bit weird. The book seems tailor made for the Lore master with his massed spells. But having the 2 also seems weird you've 13 spells in total. How many dice are you going to get? You'll be wasting one of your Lord choices each magic phase.

Why a shield on the Noble with halberd. He'll never get shot at.

I also feel you're trying to do too much with the special choices. With 3 you have decent throw away combat units but they can't beat a serious unit on their own. This is forcing your hand with the core. But the "anvil" with only 18 guys and no 3++ won't hold up to anything.

Id consider dropping one of the special units to get some Eagles for artillery hunting and a Phoenix for support and WM hunting if needed.

 FlingitNow wrote:
BotWD on Phoenix guard seems a waste as does not putting someone with a High magic spell in with them. Likewise the Razorstandard does little for the Lions who already do well against armoured foes. Lions should get BotWD either the Sword masters or Phoenix guard would benefit from the razorstandard more.

Not sure why 12 knights would make good use of martial prowess. 15 would be good but I can see your plan.

Heavens is a weird choice for a lvl 4. High or Life would appear to be the more logical choices particularly with the book. Also the equipment on your characters seems a bit weird. The book seems tailor made for the Lore master with his massed spells. But having the 2 also seems weird you've 13 spells in total. How many dice are you going to get? You'll be wasting one of your Lord choices each magic phase.

Why a shield on the Noble with halberd. He'll never get shot at.

I also feel you're trying to do too much with the special choices. With 3 you have decent throw away combat units but they can't beat a serious unit on their own. This is forcing your hand with the core. But the "anvil" with only 18 guys and no 3++ won't hold up to anything.

Id consider dropping one of the special units to get some Eagles for artillery hunting and a Phoenix for support and WM hunting if needed.

The reason I have BotWD on my PG, is that I will rarely be using the level 1. He will be there to default to Drain magic and occasionally stop stuff like mindrazor or flesh to stone. And I need a way to get a good ward save vs magic and miscasts.

The reason the knights are in 3 units of 6 is that they are there to be chaff drops mainly. And they will work with the reavers to clear up enemy chaff and hunt war machines. As for the lore on the level 4, I think High magic is very situational and life magic is one of the worst lores in the game. Heavens is really good on high elves as it gives a bubble pseudo reroll of sorts with harmonic convergence. And the loremaster is there to take off characters, as he is the general and he will be spirit leeching casters off. As for the book, yes the loremaster has more spells, but I will be using the level 4 mostly. And the rerolls are really useful for casting.

As for the noble, I fight sniping empire on a regular basis, so I feel like the 4+/4++ is a protective enough.

The combat units don't need to be any bigger than 21 nowadays due to martial prowess.

 The Shadow wrote:
Secondly, I'd move the BotWD onto the White Lions, and the Razor Banner onto the PG. I wouldn't worry too much about 1+ saves, the White Lions are still knocking off 3 points of save, and your Loremaster has access to Searing Doom as well. The WLs will benefit much more from the BotWD, since they don't have a Ward Save anyway.

I will think about the banner switch, but I want to test it out this way first. And I totally didn't forget about searing doom on the loremaster...

The PG already have a 4++ the dragon banner doesn't help against miscasts unless they've been faq to magical attacks. That is a lot of points for a fairly situational advantage that isn't even that big (as you already have a 4++).

So you're taking a 280 point character for the Death Signature spell? Why not just take a lvl 1 death mage? As for Harmonic convergence. Great on the Silver Helms little benefit to your other units and practically nothing for the PG if it was ward saves as well as armour saves I could see it. Life the worst Lore? It has the best damage spell, the best wizard buff spell and the best unit buff spell. How is that the worst Lore?

If sniping is regular I can see why the shield but that's only a 6+ save you're getting.

I said I get what you're doing with the Silver Helms.

21s are good but you've lost ASF so you take more damage these days.

Say 4 mourn fang hit the SMs. That's back rank gone to impact hits. With your 21 attacks back you do about 4 wounds. The Ogres kill 2.5 the Mourn fang another 5 plus nearly 3 dead to stomps. He wins combat by 14.

The White Lions? Same die to impact hits. 14 attacks back do 5 wounds with the razor standard. Then the Mourn fang kill the same as above and win combat by 13. Say you get lucky and do that 6th wound the 2 Mournfang still kill over 7 White Lions and you still lose by 9.

That extra rank makes all the difference. I know you're going to use your chaff to set up charges but so will your opponent. You've got great chaff and should win deployment. But your combat units will really struggle against your opponents as they are.

 FlingitNow wrote:
The PG already have a 4++ the dragon banner doesn't help against miscasts unless they've been faq to magical attacks. That is a lot of points for a fairly situational advantage that isn't even that big (as you already have a 4++).

So you're taking a 280 point character for the Death Signature spell? Why not just take a lvl 1 death mage? As for Harmonic convergence. Great on the Silver Helms little benefit to your other units and practically nothing for the PG if it was ward saves as well as armour saves I could see it. Life the worst Lore? It has the best damage spell, the best wizard buff spell and the best unit buff spell. How is that the worst Lore?

If sniping is regular I can see why the shield but that's only a 6+ save you're getting.

I said I get what you're doing with the Silver Helms.

21s are good but you've lost ASF so you take more damage these days.

Say 4 mourn fang hit the SMs. That's back rank gone to impact hits. With your 21 attacks back you do about 4 wounds. The Ogres kill 2.5 the Mourn fang another 5 plus nearly 3 dead to stomps. He wins combat by 14.

The White Lions? Same die to impact hits. 14 attacks back do 5 wounds with the razor standard. Then the Mourn fang kill the same as above and win combat by 13. Say you get lucky and do that 6th wound the 2 Mournfang still kill over 7 White Lions and you still lose by 9.

That extra rank makes all the difference. I know you're going to use your chaff to set up charges but so will your opponent. You've got great chaff and should win deployment. But your combat units will really struggle against your opponents as they are.

Yes, Miscasts are magical. And the reason the banner is on there is because that is where the mage is going. And that is going to get targetted by all sorts of spells. Now, I'm no mathematician, but a 2++ is better than a 4++ and even a 3++.

And the loremaster isn't just for the death sig. I will be using the signature spell I need, when I need it. And the level 4 will be casting most of my spells, ergo, he gets more use out of the book. And yes, Life is the worst lore in the game, in my opinion. As to get the most out of it, you need to cast throne of vines, which your opponent will dispel. Suddenly, your magic phase has had it's effectiveness virtually halved.

As for the shield, he gets a 4+ armour and ward vs shooting. Which should be enough to keep him safe.


If I let mournfang charge me, then I accept the unit is gone. But if I get the charge on the mournfang, which I have enough chaff to help me with(Hopefully), I can increase the odds to let me get the charge.

And we will both do it, but very few armies have more than 5 chaff drops. Only OnG, Beastmen, avoidance lizards and avoidance wood elves come to mind. With the OnG, I will need to get into the artillery. With the Beastmen, I need to beat the chariots. With the lizards, the salamanders and skinks, with the wood elves, the Phoenix guard and Lions run down the flanks.

I understand that the rank makes a difference, but I have the chaff and the skill(I hope) to help me make sure I get the charges.

I was thinking about the lore master with the scouting armor and the magic bow.
It's nice to have a sneaky death magic guy for sniping, and decent shooting, and with the right buff (wild form), decent hand to hand.

Heavens on the arch mage? Really?

-Matt

HawaiiMatt wrote:

Heavens on the arch mage? Really?

I am a huge fan of heavens as it is a better lore than most people give it credit for. I don't really need light as I am a high WS/I and already ASF. I don't need shadow to wound as I am high strength where it matters. I don't use life as I find it to be a bad lore. Metal would be good, but I'd prefer the rerolling 1s, -1 to hit(That stacks), and the option of forcing movement with comet. I also suspect that the missiles from the lore would be fairly effective at dealing with WoC disc characters.

 thedarkavenger wrote:

HawaiiMatt wrote:

Heavens on the arch mage? Really?

I am a huge fan of heavens as it is a better lore than most people give it credit for. I don't really need light as I am a high WS/I and already ASF. I don't need shadow to wound as I am high strength where it matters. I don't use life as I find it to be a bad lore. Metal would be good, but I'd prefer the rerolling 1s, -1 to hit(That stacks), and the option of forcing movement with comet. I also suspect that the missiles from the lore would be fairly effective at dealing with WoC disc characters.

S6 missiles bounce off disc warriors. 4+ armor with re-roll then 3++ ward re-rolling 1's.
-1 to hit only stacks if you have more than one heavens wizard, which you do not.

Heavens is good, but high magic is just awesome.

-Matt

HawaiiMatt wrote:


Heavens is good, but high magic is just awesome.

-Matt

I found it lackluster. The only spell that had any effect on the game was Walk Between Worlds. If it had a longer range, I might consider it on a mage who's level is higher than 1.

So how many power dice are you expecting to get? You are paying for 13 spells. How on earth are you even attempting to cast half of them?

So if you get charged by a unit that is faster than you and vastly less points you accept the unit is gone? That is not a good way to play Warhammer. I can understand throw away 21s of White Lions or Sword Masters (though the current book seems to favour the former). But them as your ONLY combat units seems hopeful at best. Where as the PG are an Anvil that doesn't hold anything up with T3 and only 18 guys at 655pts I get a combat unit into your "anvil" and its game over. With so few wounds an Archer unit would do the same job as a bunker and contribute. That PG unit is sucking up points and delivering nothing.

 FlingitNow wrote:
So how many power dice are you expecting to get? You are paying for 13 spells. How on earth are you even attempting to cast half of them?

So if you get charged by a unit that is faster than you and vastly less points you accept the unit is gone? That is not a good way to play Warhammer. I can understand throw away 21s of White Lions or Sword Masters (though the current book seems to favour the former). But them as your ONLY combat units seems hopeful at best. Where as the PG are an Anvil that doesn't hold anything up with T3 and only 18 guys at 655pts I get a combat unit into your "anvil" and its game over. With so few wounds an Archer unit would do the same job as a bunker and contribute. That PG unit is sucking up points and delivering nothing.

I don't plan on using the loremaster much. He is there to give me access to stuff the level 4 doesn't. Like Wildform, Searing Doom, Fireball and Spirit Leech. Which I will only cast When I need To.

And you assume I will be using the PG as an anvil. They aren't. They are the safest place in the new book to put a level 4. Yes, I can get more archers or spearmen for the equivalent points, but archers and spearmen don't cause fear, and don't have the ward save. And anything that hunts mages will have a hard time fighting the phoenix guard.

You're mistaken.
White Lions are still the safest place for the wizard.
Deploy narrow and deep, the wizard will be out of combat and the unit will be steadfast to the last man.

-Matt

HawaiiMatt wrote:
You're mistaken.
White Lions are still the safest place for the wizard.
Deploy narrow and deep, the wizard will be out of combat and the unit will be steadfast to the last man.

-Matt

I'd rather not risk my wizard being in combat. The number of times I've had a stubborn LD 10 unit run from combat means that I just can't chance it. Hence the defensive special slot with the ward save.

So you're paying 280 points for a model you don't intend to use much. This is not an efficient way to build a list. Get something for those points that you'll actually use.

 FlingitNow wrote:
So you're paying 280 points for a model you don't intend to use much. This is not an efficient way to build a list. Get something for those points that you'll actually use.

I think that he is an efficient use of points. As he has various spells for various occasions. But he is not better than a level 4 for a main caster. As a backup caster, he is useful because he can throw out spells like wildform or possibly even take off characters/monsters with spirit leech. He can also hold his own in combat. Even if I don't cast spells with him very often he is still a WS6 S6 model with 3 attacks. So I don't plan on using him solely for spells. But for a mixture of combat and magic.

280 points for 3 Ws6 attacks or 70 points for the same. As a back up caster he needs to be your scroll caddy as you're spending 390 points for back up caster and scroll. That almost gets you Teclis. That is hugely inefficient. He is great as a main caster but far too many points as a back up particularly if you're buying a 3rd wizard for a scroll. If you want wyssans and spirit leech make your LvL1 beasts and take another back up mage and save yourself 160 points. You could get a Prince for that! Or Korhil!!!!

The Lore master with s ace because he's a decent fighter and wizard and allows you to save points by taking him instead of 2 characters. As a back up caster he's far too expensive.

 FlingitNow wrote:
280 points for 3 Ws6 attacks or 70 points for the same. As a back up caster he needs to be your scroll caddy as you're spending 390 points for back up caster and scroll. That almost gets you Teclis. That is hugely inefficient. He is great as a main caster but far too many points as a back up particularly if you're buying a 3rd wizard for a scroll. If you want wyssans and spirit leech make your LvL1 beasts and take another back up mage and save yourself 160 points. You could get a Prince for that! Or Korhil!!!!

The Lore master with s ace because he's a decent fighter and wizard and allows you to save points by taking him instead of 2 characters. As a back up caster he's far too expensive.

You seem to be of the opinion that I am taking him to solely be a backup caster. I will be using him in combat, hence the armour. He is also my general so I get the LD 10 bubble. So I don't want him to also be my scroll caddy. As for the amount of points, if I get a lot of use out of him, which I will, he isn't a waste. There may be ways to get a better character, but with the heavens level 4, he synergises really well. As for Teclis and Korhil, they are fun for what they are, but I would rather take generic characters for their flexibility.

But you could get Ld10 with any lord not just him. It is hugely inefficient to have him and not have him as your main caster.

 FlingitNow wrote:
But you could get Ld10 with any lord not just him. It is hugely inefficient to have him and not have him as your main caster.

Really?

I mean, just really?

At 2400, in a competitive environment, it is more efficient to have a level 2 as my main caster than a level 4?

Allow me to reiterate, he synergises with the army very well. He can do a lot of things for me, that a single level 1 won't. He can stack Iceshard. He can wildform my White Lions and Swordsmasters. He can spirit Leech monsters and characters at LD 10. He can deal with MC and steam tanks. He can buff my units with a regen save. He can take off hellpits and hydras with fireball. He can burning gaze undead/demons. And he can miasma things. I'd say that is a very good character to have at your disposal. Even if you don't cast all the spells, having the option to cast them means that you can always have something useful to do in the magic phase.

 thedarkavenger wrote:

HawaiiMatt wrote:
You're mistaken.
White Lions are still the safest place for the wizard.
Deploy narrow and deep, the wizard will be out of combat and the unit will be steadfast to the last man.

-Matt

I'd rather not risk my wizard being in combat. The number of times I've had a stubborn LD 10 unit run from combat means that I just can't chance it. Hence the defensive special slot with the ward save.

So your 335 point Phoenix Guard unit isn't going into combat then? They're more likely to break, and panic comes up just as often for both.
The difference is, when combat comes, the white lions are stubborn, phoenix guard are not. Phoenix guard put the wizard in harms way. White Lions do not.

-Matt

HawaiiMatt wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:

HawaiiMatt wrote:
You're mistaken.
White Lions are still the safest place for the wizard.
Deploy narrow and deep, the wizard will be out of combat and the unit will be steadfast to the last man.

-Matt

I'd rather not risk my wizard being in combat. The number of times I've had a stubborn LD 10 unit run from combat means that I just can't chance it. Hence the defensive special slot with the ward save.

So your 335 point Phoenix Guard unit isn't going into combat then? They're more likely to break, and panic comes up just as often for both.
The difference is, when combat comes, the white lions are stubborn, phoenix guard are not. Phoenix guard put the wizard in harms way. White Lions do not.

-Matt

The phoenix guard are there to sit at the back of the board being a bunker. Expensive and a point sink, I know, but the ward save means that they are more survivable than a spear bunker, but have less bodies.

Well I didn't say you have to take him at 2400. Is he more efficient than a Lvl4. Well he has more spells as lvl is largely irrelevant in 8th and is also fighty. But has no uber spells. Is he efficient as a back up caster? Not even remotely. Does he do more than a Lvl1 well at nearly triple the points Id hope so. Is he worth it as a back up caster? Not even close.

So you have 280 points doing not a lot with another 110 point caddy. Plus a 335 point combat unit that you don't use in combat.

So your plan is fight your opponent about 700 points down with a lvl4 Heavens wizard doing all the heavy lifting...

Let me know how that goes for you.

 FlingitNow wrote:
Is he more efficient than a Lvl4. Well he has more spells as lvl is largely irrelevant in 8th and is also fighty. But has no uber spells. Is he efficient as a back up caster? Not even remotely. Does he do more than a Lvl1 well at nearly triple the points Id hope so. Is he worth it as a back up caster? Not even close.

In a competitive army, he is nowhere near as efficient as casting as a level 4 is. The +4 for casting is pretty necessary. Which is why I have the level 4. I'd say he is worth it for the roll he is in in the army, due to the variety of spells he gives me access to.

The +4 for casting is pretty necessary.

Really? The Book is effectively another +2 to cast so it is +4 vs +6 and generally +4 is enough. If you don't think so then fine don't take the Loremaster. But taking him as a back up caster at 280 points is ludicrously wasteful in an army that is always short on points.

As is then taking another mage as a carry and a 335 point combat unit as a bunker. I just don't get that at all.

 FlingitNow wrote:
Really? The Book is effectively another +2 to cast so it is +4 vs +6 and generally +4 is enough. If you don't think so then fine don't take the Loremaster. But taking him as a back up caster at 280 points is ludicrously wasteful in an army that is always short on points.

There you go, assuming I'm taking him solely for magic. I'm taking him as both a caster and a combat character. Which works out cheaper than the equivalent mage and noble. So yeah. He is quite points efficient for what you get out of him.

Really 280 points is less than a Noble (120 with 50 points of items) and a Mage (170 with full 50 points of items). He really is wasted here. He's a decent combat character but not a challenge power house. He's a very good wizard his strength is his magic he's not realistically any more fighty than a Chaos Sorcerer. But you seem to want to use him primarily as a fighter who can cast the odd spell. This is not what he is.

There are good elements to your list. But there is just so much wastage holding it back.

 FlingitNow wrote:
He really is wasted here. He's a decent combat character but not a challenge power house.

He is not as good as a level 4, but not as good as a commited hero character. But he does both well enough to justify his points. You say he is wasted as a backup caster, but the fact remains that he isn't good enough to be a primary caster.

but the fact remains that he isn't good enough to be a primary caster.

Then don't take him. He's too many points to use as just a back up caster. If you don't rate him as a primary caster then don't take him. Use those points on something good. He is 230 points standard a Noble with his equipment is 78 points two thirds of his cost is purely on his spell casting. That means it is his primary function. If you don't rate him at that job don't take him.

 FlingitNow wrote:
Then don't take him. He's too many points to use as just a back up caster. If you don't rate him as a primary caster then don't take him. Use those points on something good. He is 230 points standard a Noble with his equipment is 78 points two thirds of his cost is purely on his spell casting. That means it is his primary function. If you don't rate him at that job don't take him.

He is a good character to take in addition to a level 4. That is because there are times when the lore I've taken on my level 4 will restrict me. Short of taking double level 4 lists, the loremaster will alleviate this as much as I can. And you say spellcasting is his primary feature. This may look to be true, but he is still a WS6 Character with an inbuilt Great Weapon. He stands up in combat as much as a noble if note more due to that extra wound. Granted he isn't as offensive as a prince, or as survivable as an annointed, or as casty as an archmage. But he does both well enough to be classed as more than a backup caster, and not good enough to be classed as a primary caster.