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Please note this isnt a GW bashing thread (yeah i know), nor is it directly a pricing thread

We all know it costs more to buy models firectly from Games workshop than from independents, but I was wondering what the guys in the stores can do to compete with those Independent traders.

Im sure price is a huge deciding factor for a lot of people, but what about convenience, or customer service? Or maybe gaming space, specialist knowledge (?)

Iv been thinking this because my local GW closed down recently because it wasnt making enough profit (Newport, Wales)

Like I say this isnt a bashing thread, Id ike to see intelligent comments :p

While there is quite a bit the individual stores could do, they are not, in fact, individual stores. They are part of a chain where decisions about everything (decor, opening hours, layout, staffing levels, targets etc.) are made by the ever shadowy "higher ups". There is, therefore very little they can do because they have so little they are allowed to do.

If it were left up to the store managers (they were handed a budget, given a sales target and branding a sales area and told "You sort it out") I'd think:

Support local clubs/host a local club
Give store credit for prizes etc for events (both club and store run)
Run their own social media (ok, so they already do this)
layout the shop to accommodate the above options (e.g. more table space for a hosted club)
Alter opening hours to suit local trade.
Have a shop location to suit local trade.

Its my understanding the guys are empowered to run the store they see fit (likely with some natural direction from above)

Nothing. It's simple economics, as a player of GW games, you need X amount of product to play (where x is a function of the army you're playing and the points level, etc.). You have limited resource Y (aka, money) to purchase this product. Purchasing product X from GW costs you Z (retail value of the product), whereas purchasing product X from a certain independent retailer might only cost you .8Z. Intelligent money management says to purchase from the independent retailer, because doing so will leave you with .2Y after you have purchased X, meaning you will still have money available, meaning more money for additional product, savings, a soda and pizza, some hookers, etc.

Purchasing from GW provides you with no practical benefit. Once assembled and painted, the source of my independently purchased GW product is indistinguishable from your GW purchased product. You do not receive an advantage in gameplay, experience, or quality. You don't really receive any additional satistfaction either, as we both purchased *literally* the same exact thing, but I paid 20% less than you did. If anything, you should feel less satisfied as a result.

As for being able to run it as you see fit, yes, so long as you're selling the product they tell you to sell at the rate they tell you to sell for the price they tell you to sell it at using the methodology they train you to use in order to sell it. So, there really isn't that much leeway there, other than what events you might or might not host.

I agree with the "they can do nothing to compete" sentiment. GW stores sell a very specific product that caters to a very small percent of the population at a very high price. While they are good at getting people into the hobby initially, the can't currently compete on a price scale with other forms of entertainment nor can the retain veterans due to increase in prices and some movement on not supporting in-store gaming.

They could move everything to direct order so that only GW stores had stock on hand.

Really there isnt much they can do asides from starting leagues, and painting competitions.

Even me local store was discouraged from starting a rewards program of a simple white dwarf.

Offer rewards programs, support tournaments, offer occasional discounts, host gaming nights, have awesome boards to play on, have snacks available and maybe some free WiFi.

Why do they need to compete? On a company level it doesn't really matter where a customer buys GW product as long as they're buying GW product!

There's more incentive to compete for individual stores/managers because of their targets etc, but still there should be room for both GW and independants and a GW manager shouldn't have an issue if he/she is doing the right things.
A GW store's primary reason for being is to recruit new people into the hobby and to be a high street presence. Once a new player has got into the hobby, attended sessions in store and has become an 'independant hobbyist' then it shouldn't be an issue if they go elsewhere for their product. I'm sure GW would prefer customers to visit their stores every now and then purely because they have trained staff who are capable of making sales, rather than a lot of the indiferant indie-store staff out there. But it isn't an 'issue' if they don't.

To a degree GW stores must be competing just fine- there are stores that have been running for 20+ years. They must still be in profit otherwise they'd be shut. I've never encountered an independant that has lasted more than 5 years. (not saying that there aren't any, I just don't know of any).

GW do compete when it comes to people new to the hobby- they provide time, space and (mostly) experienced staff to teach people what the hobby is and how to paint and game.
People will show loyalty to a convenient store with a friendly manager who has the time to chat and help out an individual's hobby.
One of the local manager's told me he gets a few guys in a week who have abandoned online discounters because they have to wait so long for stuff and because they offer them nothing beyond a price discount. Some people find conversation, inspiration, convenience & customer service more important than a discount...

I'll have to pick at a few of Koppo's points. I'm friendly socially with several of my local GW managers and they say they have a fair amount of control as long as they stick within a basic set of guidelines.
So they can alter trading hours, their layout, set their own targets. I'm told they can pretty much do as they like as long as it can be justified by improved figures. And of course stick to some basic restraints such as having demo tables for the 3 games.
And they are actively encouraged to be involved/support local clubs. My closest GW carries flyers for 2 local GCN clubs and the manager actively promotes them.

Clubs are a benefit to a GW store. So say a store recruits 30 new customers a month. And these customers attend beginner sessions, learn how to play and then end up at the gaming/vets night. If no one ever leaves to play at a gaming club then the store soon becomes oversubscribed- there isn't the facilities or space to accomodate a constant stream of new recruits as well as every other hobbyist in the area.


Wow. Wall of text!

I thought the Skullz offer was quite good but I guess that's too much like giving stuff away free for them to do now.

 Lorizael wrote:
Why do they need to compete? On a company level it doesn't really matter where a customer buys GW product as long as they're buying GW product!

Not necessarily true, buying direct from GW means GW pockets a much larger profit than if you were to buy from an independent retailer, the downside of this is that GW then operates with a higher overhead cost as they then have to support x many brick and mortar stores.

To a degree GW stores must be competing just fine- there are stores that have been running for 20+ years. They must still be in profit otherwise they'd be shut. I've never encountered an independant that has lasted more than 5 years. (not saying that there aren't any, I just don't know of any).

Theres far more stores that haven't lasted even 10. GW has closed many stores since I first started the hobby 10 or so years ago.

People will show loyalty to a convenient store with a friendly manager who has the time to chat and help out an individual's hobby.

Until they realize they're being ripped off.

One of the local manager's told me he gets a few guys in a week who have abandoned online discounters because they have to wait so long for stuff and because they offer them nothing beyond a price discount. Some people find conversation, inspiration, convenience & customer service more important than a discount...

I buy most of my product online, I still get all of that at my local non-GW store.

ahzek wrote:
Please note this isnt a GW bashing thread (yeah i know), nor is it directly a pricing thread

We all know it costs more to buy models firectly from Games workshop than from independents, but I was wondering what the guys in the stores can do to compete with those Independent traders.

Im sure price is a huge deciding factor for a lot of people, but what about convenience, or customer service? Or maybe gaming space, specialist knowledge (?)

Iv been thinking this because my local GW closed down recently because it wasnt making enough profit (Newport, Wales)

Like I say this isnt a bashing thread, Id ike to see intelligent comments :p

GW's requirements for stores are unrealistic. They must constantly be increasing their sales or the managers severely risk being fired. They are not allowed to discount AT ALL. They can't offer prize support for any events that aren't already approved from the uppers(usually they only offer cheap prizes at store openings and birthdays, and it's not usually actual product unless it was returned stock that is open).

So if your store is in town X, GW requires lets say 200k the first year. The second year they want a 20% increase, and every year after that.

So what happens when you are realistically capped in your area? There aren't any million dollar stores anymore save perhaps the last Bunker. A 1 man store simply can't do that kind of business.
Also, every store is a 1 man store, meaning it's closed 2 days a week, plus extra days if they are at training or out sick or on vacation(most areas do not have covering managers). So that eats into sales as well.

GW's retail strategies are not sustainable beyond a few years of a store opening. Eventually you will hit a certain market saturation where old players already have most of what they want, and new players become fewer and farther between.

Now try to do all that while Gary's Comics 1 town over sells everything at 10% off every day, and regularly has 20% off sales, on top of running tournaments with prize support and allowing 3rd party models, proxies, etc?

GW restricts their stores from being competitive, let alone successful.

What do GW stores need to do to compete?

Exist.

Yes, there are many other independent retailers, and other means of buying models - such as eBay - which are far cheaper than GW, and many of us veterans utilise them frequently. BUT GW DOES NOT CARE.

The purpose of GW stores is to bring people into the hobby and then get the money of new players, and ones who have yet to discover new ways of buying models. For the vast majority of the community members, GW stores, and the website, are the only way to get models. Think back to when you started the hobby. Did you start buying of independent retailers/eBay straight away? Almost definetly, the answer is no. You went to a GW.

Even some people who are "veterans" still buy from GW, since they're "blind" to other methods. Another question. Before you joined Dakka, or any other similar online wargaming forum, how aware were you of other ways of buying GW models? Probably not very. You might have clued on to eBay, but chances are you'll never have heard of The Warstore or Wayland Games or anything like that.

We people, here, who are very clued up about what's going on in the hobby, are a very small minority of the community. As long as it stays that way, GW stores will keep making profit.

I'm thinking GW needs to start selling online-only miniatures, there are so many classics that only available from their website.

 The Shadow wrote:
What do GW stores need to do to compete?

Exist.

Yes, there are many other independent retailers, and other means of buying models - such as eBay - which are far cheaper than GW, and many of us veterans utilise them frequently. BUT GW DOES NOT CARE.

The purpose of GW stores is to bring people into the hobby and then get the money of new players, and ones who have yet to discover new ways of buying models. For the vast majority of the community members, GW stores, and the website, are the only way to get models. Think back to when you started the hobby. Did you start buying of independent retailers/eBay straight away? Almost definetly, the answer is no. You went to a GW.

Even some people who are "veterans" still buy from GW, since they're "blind" to other methods. Another question. Before you joined Dakka, or any other similar online wargaming forum, how aware were you of other ways of buying GW models? Probably not very. You might have clued on to eBay, but chances are you'll never have heard of The Warstore or Wayland Games or anything like that.

We people, here, who are very clued up about what's going on in the hobby, are a very small minority of the community. As long as it stays that way, GW stores will keep making profit.

Uhh, things must be really different in the UK from the US then, because I didn't see, let alone step foot in, a GW store until 3 or 4 years after I first started playing (and I did, in fact, make my first purchases online), nor did most of the people I game with... in fact, I know a few fellow 40k/Fantasy players that have never once seen or set foot in a GW Hobby Center or Battle Bunker.

They could do a lot of things

Regular weekly gaming events with terrain and tables provided. In order to participate you have to earn a ticket by spending x dollars tracked on a loyalty card. So lets say you spend $50 that week, or whatever, you get a ticket to participate in some free games. The winner of the weekly tournament gets a limited edition, in store only miniature.

MVC. Most valued customer, basically the customer that spends the most during a period gets a limited edition mini plus a 20% discount on their next purchase.

Look at what FLGS do to bring in customers, steal it and add things that only GW could do. GW needs to figure out what they can offer that other stores can't. Right now it isn't much.

The fact is that GW care very little about their stores. I get the idea behind them, but, its poorly executed and in the end costs all of their customers quite a bit of money. I personally have never been to one, as they are really not things in the US....well not where I've lived anyway.

Wheres the incentive? I already get 20% discounts at my local non-GW store or online, and I don't have to spend a ton of money on retail-priced product to get it, I have free gaming provided to me at my FLGS regardless of whether or not I purchase something in store that week, if I win a local tournament I get store credit to spend on whatever I please when I choose to do so rather than having a useless limited ed. mini forced on me,

chaos0xomega wrote:

 Lorizael wrote:
Why do they need to compete? On a company level it doesn't really matter where a customer buys GW product as long as they're buying GW product!

Not necessarily true, buying direct from GW means GW pockets a much larger profit than if you were to buy from an independent retailer, the downside of this is that GW then operates with a higher overhead cost as they then have to support x many brick and mortar stores.

To a degree GW stores must be competing just fine- there are stores that have been running for 20+ years. They must still be in profit otherwise they'd be shut. I've never encountered an independant that has lasted more than 5 years. (not saying that there aren't any, I just don't know of any).

Theres far more stores that haven't lasted even 10. GW has closed many stores since I first started the hobby 10 or so years ago.

People will show loyalty to a convenient store with a friendly manager who has the time to chat and help out an individual's hobby.

Until they realize they're being ripped off.

One of the local manager's told me he gets a few guys in a week who have abandoned online discounters because they have to wait so long for stuff and because they offer them nothing beyond a price discount. Some people find conversation, inspiration, convenience & customer service more important than a discount...

I buy most of my product online, I still get all of that at my local non-GW store.

chaos0xomega wrote:

 The Shadow wrote:
What do GW stores need to do to compete?

Uhh, things must be really different in the UK from the US then, because I didn't see, let alone step foot in, a GW store until 3 or 4 years after I first started playing (and I did, in fact, make my first purchases online), nor did most of the people I game with... in fact, I know a few fellow 40k/Fantasy players that have never once seen or set foot in a GW Hobby Center or Battle Bunker.

I think difference between UK and USA is a big deal. UK stores very rarely close. They often relocate, but closure isn't frequent. Even the Newport store (as mentioned previously in thread) is an exception as generally Newport as a shopping area is dying on it's arse and lots of stores are pulling out.
And I would expect the majority of GW collectors would have started in a GW store. The UK has double the amount of stores than in the USA and is a fraction of the size; saturation means people are exposed the stores first.

The differences in profit between trade/retail/mail order are hard to guage. Maybe the cost in profits through selling through an indie is the same as the cost of overheads for running a store? Hard to know.

The 'ripped off' comment means little. GW sells at their set price. That is the price of the product. Just because a trade account chooses to sell at a lower price doesn't mean you're being ripped off at a GW. It's subjective- products are worth what an individual perceives them to be worth. It's fine that you buy online, but there are still plenty who buy at GW stores. I and most of my friends do, and we're perfectly aware of Wayland, Dark Sphere, GFG etc. We buy at GW because of what it offers us beyond a discount.

 sing your life wrote:
I'm thinking GW needs to start selling online-only miniatures, there are so many classics that only available from their website.

On one hand, why? GW a few years back switched to a "top 3000 lines only" (IIRC) method for good reason. Too much dead stock gathering dust. Dead stock takes up space in warehouses, dead stock eats your profits. GW cannot discount it to get rid of it, they cannot decide on a store level to discontinue it (both of these things I can do in my job), they are stuck with it until they pay someone from head office to come and pick it up.

OTOH.

From what I saw personally, us wargamers are an instant gratification bunch, and if it's not on the shelf we'll take our business elsewhere. I saw many people walk off without buying anything for a couple of years after GW implemented this policy.

You're damned if you do and damned if you don't.

They have one massive advantage in the UK- ubiquity.

I live in the third largest town in the county, yet there is no other wargaming retailer than GW. Historically the town has had an independent FLGS which did very well (I knew the owner socially and he had a very good lifestyle supported by its success) but GW opened as soon as he decided to have a change in career and close the shop, and nobody else has been in a position to do anything since.

I'm sure, given the number of UK stores, that many GW branches' only requirement to be successful is "be open."

As someone with a background in retail sales, and who has run locations where major competitors were literally across the street (and that's a pedestrianised street, so not even traffic to contend with!) I'm familiar with finding an edge or an angle to get people's custom, but honestly, if I was a GW manager with a competently run Indy stockist nearby, I don't see how I would do that. At least, not without employing underhand supply of stock manipulation from on high, but I'm sure GW have never done that.....

I'll agree that for large chunks of the UK being open is all they need to do

however where there is competition one possible option would be to offer direct only either in store or as a fast click and collect

I think actually having their stores be open and a live would be a start. There was at one point several of them in my immediate area, but they all closed down shortly after opening. I didn't even know there were any here to begin with until at least a year after they'd closed down.

 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:
I'll agree that for large chunks of the UK being open is all they need to do

however where there is competition one possible option would be to offer direct only either in store or as a fast click and collect

They do, all stores have an ordering point that can get everything from the website, don't think forgeworld

ahzek wrote:
Its my understanding the guys are empowered to run the store they see fit (likely with some natural direction from above)

You are wrong. The most GW store managers get to do themselves is run events and maybe make up minor policies like paying to use a store table. Oh, and music is left up to their questionable taste.

The vast majority of what actually affects people when they go into the store is controlled by GW itself.

 The Shadow wrote:

. Think back to when you started the hobby. Did you start buying of independent retailers/eBay straight away? Almost definetly, the answer is no. You went to a GW.

Actually, if you're in the USA, it is almost certain that your initial GW experience was not in a GW store.

I've been in a GW store exactly once in my life. That was when I was visiting my FLGS and the owner found out his GW delivery was shorted a new army book. He asked one of his employees to drive over to the GW store to pick on up, and I rode along. I was in the store probably about 30 seconds. My first experience, and 99.999% of my subsequent experiences, with GW have been through an independent retailer.

 -Loki- wrote:

ahzek wrote:
Its my understanding the guys are empowered to run the store they see fit (likely with some natural direction from above)

You are wrong. The most GW store managers get to do themselves is run events and maybe make up minor policies like paying to use a store table. Oh, and music is left up to their questionable taste.

The vast majority of what actually affects people when they go into the store is controlled by GW itself.

They can also determine theirs opening times and the like (obviously still within the 40 hours and opening five days a week, but the freedom is there)

chaos0xomega wrote:
Wheres the incentive? I already get 20% discounts at my local non-GW store or online, and I don't have to spend a ton of money on retail-priced product to get it, I have free gaming provided to me at my FLGS regardless of whether or not I purchase something in store that week, if I win a local tournament I get store credit to spend on whatever I please when I choose to do so rather than having a useless limited ed. mini forced on me,

Right, this is my point, they really have to figure out something they can do that is exclusive or better than what the FLGS can offer. We all know people that go to conventions just for the limited edition swag.

I think maybe the business model is just very different here in the states. I don't think GW stores do as well here because there is just too much independent competition. It sounds like in other places all they have is GW stores...which kind of begs the question, why don't more independents open in those markets.

I think the whole GW store thing is a giant waste of revenue that could be accomplished in other, better ways.

They have to be doing something right since I see stores opening here in the United States in the White Dwarf mag. Not sure what it is but some investor has put his money on the line looking for a return. Never been to a GW store and don't have one near me. So I really don't know what they have to offer besides models at retail cost

The only thing that keeps me buying anything at my local GW is the manager, and even then it's only purchases under $50. more than that and the online discount beats out the convenience and my like the of manager.

As it is, even though NONE of his customers complain, the sales for that store are down and he'll likely be gone in 6 months, and basically every regular customer I know agrees that once he's gone we will all be leaving the store and sticking to discount sellers or the local independent.

And no, my first intro to GW games was not in a GW store. It was in a comic shop. GW didn't even have a store in my area until 4 years ago.

Move to premises with good transport links and parking.

Proper Game Tables, make it a place where people want to play, spend time and money.

Online system with user accounts to reserve tables in advance.

Lower Prices.

Stop employees jumping down customers throats as soon as they enter the door.

From what I've heard GW stores operate at a Loss, it's basically a showroom to get people into the hobby and hooked on GW products.

Instead they should turn GW stores into dedicated GW product gaming areas, with selling goods as more of a sideline. Basically turn the stores into mini warhammer worlds with events, tournaments, competitions etc.

What better way to sell a product than to see other people playing and enjoying it, instead of just seeing a store with 1 guy in waiting for customers and all they can do to show off the game is a demo board with some demo rules.


Also i'd like to add i first got into the hobby about 15 years ago. Back then GW stores had people playing games and the walls were lined with blisters and you could pretty much buy every part of your army in store.

I've only just got back into the hobby about 2 years ago after a 10 year break. When i stepped into a GW store recently it's totally changed, there is no atmosphere, No blisters on the wall, just a few core plastic army boxes, the guy in the shop said anything else needs to be ordered online. This was after he pretty much pounced on me and tried to sell me a necron battleforce (i was in there looking for ogres). As you can guess I've never been back :p.

I'm instead quite happy with Mantic Games and their pathfinder tournies now, even if it does mean traveling :p.

I can tell you right now, at least here in the US, stores that operate at a loss will have quick manager turnaround and if they don't profit they get closed.