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So, 7th edition has created somthing new,

detachments, previously these were just 2nd FOC's, but now its an acutall thing we can take multiples of:

pg 120 deals with them, and states
1:every unit MUST be in a detachment
2:set limits to how many units of each type can be in the primary detachment (it literally says MAX)
3: it tells you that "additional units (past the limit) of FOC slots must go into a 2nd detachment"


so reading this, there are two possibilities for summoned/spawned units like demons or tervigons:
(keeping in mind, unbound armies dont need to follow detachment rules)

So either these "addditional" units follow detachment rules,

IE:

1: non demon armys, when summoning demons, literally cant put them into their primary detachment, as they are a diff faction

2: armies that summon/spawn units of their own faction, could fill up the last slots with them, but no more, unless they have a 2nd detachment that still has FOC slots left as well


or these additional units are NOT supposed to follow detachment rules:

IE
1. they dont have to conform to any of the detachment rules, can be summoned in excess of the slots you have left to fill them with.

2. they cannot benifit from the primary detachment "objective secured" rule, as they dont belong to a legal detachment and dont follow detachment rules.



Either interpretation of the rules could be correct,

However, interpreting the rules as both following AND ignoring detachment rules, cannot be correct (IE someone wants to treat them as following detachment rules for the purposes of gaining the bonus, but not for the purpose of restrictions this puts on them)


Your thoughts?

 easysauce wrote:
2. they cannot benifit from the primary detachment "objective secured" rule, as they dont belong to a legal detachment and dont follow detachment rules.

This.

They weren't purchased as part of any detachment.
So there's no way they can gain any Command Benefits.
On the other hand they don't make your force suddenly unbound.

yup, grendal mirrors my thoughts exactly,

I do however, have a lot of people FREAKING OUT about summoned units (tervigons/demons/ect) because they think they get to break the detachment rules, and yet still benifit from them and be "OBJ secured" units

I was wondering if a non chaos army summons daemons, and they are not buddies with chaos, do the summoned daemons force the other army, lets say, ultramarines to do a "one eye open" check?

I would say in the mention of tyranids, necrons and daemons summoning/creating more units of their army it is fine. After all, if the units do not count as troops for the sake of scoring, do they not count as troops for the sake of anything else?

Daemons can summon via the warp storm table and portalglyph, Portal glyph states that the unit is treated exactly as a normal unit of its type (plaguebearers are troops, treated like troops) and the warp storm states that they award victory points as normal.

I am not sure what the Tyranid book states, but since the 6th ed daemon book arrived, no one has ever questioned my portalglyph troops being anything other than troops.

 gwarsh41 wrote:
I was wondering if a non chaos army summons daemons, and they are not buddies with chaos, do the summoned daemons force the other army, lets say, ultramarines to do a "one eye open" check?

I would say in the mention of tyranids, necrons and daemons summoning/creating more units of their army it is fine. After all, if the units do not count as troops for the sake of scoring, do they not count as troops for the sake of anything else?

Daemons can summon via the warp storm table and portalglyph, Portal glyph states that the unit is treated exactly as a normal unit of its type (plaguebearers are troops, treated like troops) and the warp storm states that they award victory points as normal.

I am not sure what the Tyranid book states, but since the 6th ed daemon book arrived, no one has ever questioned my portalglyph troops being anything other than troops.

It is complicated for Tyranids, as spawned Gants counting as a 'troop' doesn't mean anything without also being a part of a formal Combined Arms detachment, which the Codex makes no mention of. I imagine it's the same issue for the Portaglyph. But I can see that if Summoned Daemons don't have Objective Secured, the weight of evidence is against spawned Gants or Portaglyph daemons also gaining Objective Secured.

keep in mind, troops or not matters not one bit,

it just matters what detachment they belong too for the objective secured rule.

troops or not, they score, and we know what battlefeild role they have due to that unit being a troops/FA/ect choice in the codex.

But the tervigons spawns, or demon summons (through any method) wouldnt count as objective secured since they are not primary detachment.

also worth noting, that you are required to state what is in your primary detachment prior to the game, and disclose this info to your opponent. Since summons/spawns happens after listbuilding, there is nothing to support them being added to primary detachments.


RAW and RAI seem to both be ok this way,

and spawning endless scoring troops is great! awesome even!

spawning endless "objective secured" units, is OP, not RAW supported, and not even RAI supported however.

I would use the Army List Entries terminology mentioned in the rules for this. The only units that count as part of ANY detachment are the ones with entries on your Army List. Those units have been prepurchased and assigned special upgrades and detachments before the game ever began. Any new units summoned to the field are not part of any detachment because they have no entry on your Army List. When the rules would go to "check" their detachment, it would encounter an error as they are undefined.

Kyutaru wrote:
I would use the Army List Entries terminology mentioned in the rules for this. The only units that count as part of ANY detachment are the ones with entries on your Army List. Those units have been prepurchased and assigned special upgrades and detachments before the game ever began. Any new units summoned to the field are not part of any detachment because they have no entry on your Army List. When the rules would go to "check" their detachment, it would encounter an error as they are undefined.

Spawned Gants count as troops taken from your 'army list'. So maybe they gain Objective Secured.

troops from your "army list" do not get OBJ secured, so that doesnt matter,

only troops from your "primary detachment" get that rule:

you have 0 rules saying that spawned gaunts are from the primary detachment, and several rules stateing that all detachments are assigned PRE GAME.

guants certainly count as troops, and score, but there is nothing to suggest they are in the primary detachment.

in fact, trying to assert that they do count as being in the primary detachment, means you have to follow other detachment rules like no more then 6 troops (which caps your spawning/summoning) but ignore detachment rules like the ones that assign detachments pre game.

cant ignore some detachment rules and just apply the ones you want/know about.

 easysauce wrote:
only troops from your "primary detachment" get that rule:

Sorry to nit-pick, but I'd just like to clarify this.

Only troops chosen from a Detachment that has the Objective Secured Command Benefit get the rule. This isn't limited to just the Primary, any Combined Arms or Allied Detchamnet will also have this rule.

Summoned units are never chosen as part of any Detchment.

 grendel083 wrote:

 easysauce wrote:
only troops from your "primary detachment" get that rule:

Sorry to nit-pick, but I'd just like to clarify this.

Only troops chosen from a Detachment that has the Objective Secured Command Benefit get the rule. This isn't limited to just the Primary, any Combined Arms or Allied Detchamnet will also have this rule.

Summoned units are never chosen as part of any Detchment.

hey its YMDC gotta get it right, I thought only primary combined arms detachments got that rule, and its not even a given as you can choose the benifit to re roll warlord trait instead right?

so you could very well be right.

either way, summoned units/spawned units are not part of that detachment.

Would summoning demons within 12" of an imperial or eldar automatically cause a deep strike mishap?

Can't deploy CTA within 12"....

Andy06r wrote:
Would summoning demons within 12" of an imperial or eldar automatically cause a deep strike mishap?

Can't deploy CTA within 12"....

They aren't being deployed, they're just being placed on the table via deep strike

The slots on the FOC are for selecting and creating your army, it is not a hard and fast limit for the actual playing of the game. There is nothing stopping you from having more than 6 troop units, or more than 3 FA units while playing the game.

If the Tervigon or Psyker is in a detachment, then anything it produces is also in that detachment. There is no reason to assume anything else.

The gaunts and demons will have the OS rule, they are troops, and are part of the detachment.

coredump wrote:
The slots on the FOC are for selecting and creating your army, it is not a hard and fast limit for the actual playing of the game. There is nothing stopping you from having more than 6 troop units, or more than 3 FA units while playing the game.

If the Tervigon or Psyker is in a detachment, then anything it produces is also in that detachment. There is no reason to assume anything else.

The gaunts and demons will have the OS rule, they are troops, and are part of the detachment.

there is 0 rules to back up what you just said, and several that contradict it... pg 120 explicitly states there are MAXIMUM FOCS in each detachment, and tells you additional units must be in another attachment if no room exists in the first.

you either follow the detachment rules, or ignore them, you cannot pick and choose.

Assuming everything you summon is in primary detachment, ignores SOME detachment rules, and follows others, which is 100% wrong by raw.

You are even told to assign detachments pre game, so why are you assigning them mid game?

Why are you only following the beneficial rules from detachments, but not the restrictions in the detachment rules?

That is the quintessential "breaking of the rules" when you follow the part that benefits you, but not the part that does not.

I think the best and most logical way to treat them is as their own detachment. The book talks about special detachments that might have their own rule, and I think this certainly qualifies.

there is 0 rules to back up what you just said, and several that contradict it... pg 120 explicitly states there are MAXIMUM FOCS in each detachment, and tells you additional units must be in another attachment if no room exists in the first.

Really??

So you can only have MAXIMUM 6 troops.... how do you deal with dedicated transports? What happens when you combat squad and now have 18 troop units in you one CAD FOC?

What happens when you have 3 squadrons of vehicles, and one is immobolized so you abandon it. Now you have *4* units of FA (or HS depending)

Or what happens when you take a command/honor/primaris/priest models... you now have more than 2 HQ units.

Here's a sentence that you may be overlooking, from the Tyranids Codex, pg. 48.

"A unit spawned by a Tervigon is identical in every way to a Termagant unit chosen from the Troops section of the army list, and is treated as such for all mission special rules. Models in a spawned unit are armed with fleshborers and may not purchase options."

If spawned Termagants suddenly don't have Objective Secured, while the Termagant brood in the same detachment as your Tervigon DOES have OS, then they aren't very well identical in every way, are they? Further factoring in the fact that the FAQ substitutes the phrase "in that detachment" for "your army" elsewhere in the codex, and I believe that the matter is quite clear when it comes to spawned Termagants.

Summoned units are another case entirely, as to the best of my knowledge they do NOT have this wording in their rules.

And if 'new' units are not part of the same detachment.... what detachment are they part of? What rule allows you to just create a new detachment?


And what about Endless Swarm? If you get a new brood, you are saying that is not part of the detachment? Then it can't come back?

every single model you choose is from your army list in the case of tervigons/troops.

being a "troop" choice from your army list, does not make you OS'ed, being a troop choice specifically in your detachment with the OS rule does. and the BRB is very clear that detachment assignment is done pre game.


that does not equate to them being in a detachment with the OS rule. So that does nothing to allow you to break some detachment rules, and follow others.

at best you can claim "we dont know what detachment to put them in, nor if we put them in one at all"

but to claim they follow half the rules and break the other half is not correct.

If you want to apply detachment rules Mid game for the purpose of the benifit of gaining OS, you must also follow detachment rules for the purpose of what units you can have mid game. fine go ahead, that is a legal RAW interpretation.

OBs most people think you just ignore detachment rules for mid game gained units, which is consistant, and also RAW.

however, choosing to only follow SOME of the detachment rules mid game, and ignoring others, is 100% not allowed.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

coredump wrote:

there is 0 rules to back up what you just said, and several that contradict it... pg 120 explicitly states there are MAXIMUM FOCS in each detachment, and tells you additional units must be in another attachment if no room exists in the first.

Really??

So you can only have MAXIMUM 6 troops.... how do you deal with dedicated transports? What happens when you combat squad and now have 18 troop units in you one CAD FOC?

What happens when you have 3 squadrons of vehicles, and one is immobolized so you abandon it. Now you have *4* units of FA (or HS depending)

Or what happens when you take a command/honor/primaris/priest models... you now have more than 2 HQ units.

all those examples have rules explaining what you do.... dedicated transports dont take up slots.. comabt squads DO take up slots if you actually read the rules or the GK FAQ... things like preists are specifically mentioned in the BRB as not taking up slots...

if you fail to actually know those things, thats because you have failed to read the rules properly... every "example" you just gave has somthing explaining it in the BRB, yet you dont know that... because you dont know the rules apparently.


aditional units follow the "additional units rule" on pg 120, or they do not.

stop choosing to follow some detachment rules and not others, I have 0 issues with takeing either side on this one, but choosing one side sometimes and the other at other times is 100% wrong.

you can only read the rules to say yes, or no, in this case not "when I feel like it, and not when i dont"

The simplest explanation is that the conjured units join the parent detachment. If you conjure a unit of troops they must be part of a detachment, and they can't be a detachment on their own as they would need at least an HQ as well to be a legal detachment.

 Tonberry7 wrote:
The simplest explanation is that the conjured units join the parent detachment. If you conjure a unit of troops they must be part of a detachment, and they can't be a detachment on their own as they would need at least an HQ as well to be a legal detachment.

Why do they have to be a detachment at all? This isn't army building, nothing requires them to fit into an existing detachment.

CrownAxe,
It is something that makes me wonder, where this concept that the List has to remain legal throughout the entire duration of the game comes from.
More so given how many Rules can remove, create or somehow modify a Unit in such a way it would be 'illegal' if that Restriction was not just a pre-game List Building Requirement.

 Tonberry7 wrote:
The simplest explanation is that the conjured units join the parent detachment. If you conjure a unit of troops they must be part of a detachment, and they can't be a detachment on their own as they would need at least an HQ as well to be a legal detachment.

dude... again, why are you applying detachment rules, IN PART, but not in full? why is it impposible for a mid game unit to be detachment less, but totally possible for it to break attachment rules via too many FOC slots?

you either follow the detachment rules, or you do not, you are picking and choosing to follow some and ignore others.

the BRB says we only use them PRE GAME...

so why assume we use them mid game at all? its not simpler.. it opens up cans of worms like not being able to pass your allot ment of FOCs... but you think we should ignore the FOC rules in detachments, but follow the benificial parts for gaining unlimited OS'd units....


no where, does it say to use detachment rules mid game, we are told to do them pre game, and thats it.

its far simpler, and its actually supported by RAW, that mid game units dont need to follow detachment rules at all, and are not in a detachment at all.

your way of seeing it, hey, once I kill your HQ choice, your list all dissapears, because hey, no HQ means your detachment is now illegal right?

your idea that we must constantly check and re apply the list building detachment rules mid game is not only totally made up and against RAW, it is by far, the most complicated interpretation, and the most inconsistant as you are ignoring FOC limits during your made up "re do detachment list building phase" yet you are claiming bonuses....

All units must be part of a detachment. Why is that so hard to understand?

JinxDragon wrote:
CrownAxe,
It is something that makes me wonder, where this concept that the List has to remain legal throughout the entire duration of the game comes from.
More so given how many Rules can remove, create or somehow modify a Unit in such a way it would be 'illegal' if that Restriction was not just a pre-game List Building Requirement.

Agreed, it is a strange concept. Would the list not be illegal following the first summon? The points cost limit for the army has just been exceeded. This is also part of a legal list.

So I'd say it's a flawed concept.

 grendel083 wrote:

JinxDragon wrote:
CrownAxe,
It is something that makes me wonder, where this concept that the List has to remain legal throughout the entire duration of the game comes from.
More so given how many Rules can remove, create or somehow modify a Unit in such a way it would be 'illegal' if that Restriction was not just a pre-game List Building Requirement.

Agreed, it is a strange concept. Would the list not be illegal following the first summon? The points cost limit for the army has just been exceeded. This is also part of a legal list.

So I'd say it's a flawed concept.

Only if you and your opponent agree on a point limit.

 Tonberry7 wrote:
All units must be part of a detachment. Why is that so hard to understand?

that is a requirement of

***LIST BUILDING PRE GAME****


what is so hard to understand about that?


I get it, you want us to be following the "all units must be part of a detachment" PRE game listbuilding rules in the middle of the game,

So why are we NOT following the "no more then 6 troops" and "you must have an HQ" pre game listbuilding rules in the middle of the game as well?

what gives you the right to pick and choose what detachment rules must be ahered to mid game, and totally ignore others.

why are you ignoring the BRB rules that tell us to do detachments "pre game only" at all?


on the one hand, you are saying we must check, mid game, to make sure we follow detachment rules like the one stating all units must be in a detachment.

on the other hand, you are saying we must ignore these rules mid game regarding # of FOCs taken up, regarding the loss of all HQ or troops choices, and so on and so on.


why are you not seeing your own contradiction there?

Who said anything about mid game? Conjured units are treated as reserves for all rules purposes, and therefore are counted as being present before the start. You're conveniently ignoring this.

 Tonberry7 wrote:
Who said anything about mid game? Conjured units are treated as reserves for all rules purposes, and therefore are counted as being present before the start. You're conveniently ignoring this.

Eh? How can a unit that may or may not be summoned be part of your army BEFORE the game starts?