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For one of probably the worst units in the dark elder codex and being borderline unusable yet the lore makes them out to be the best fighters available to the dark elder. I mean the lore has them dodging bullets and kicking grenades back at enemies but they only get the ability to dodge a sword in close combat. Then you have just downright stupid things like succubi and lelith being described as able to kill hive tyrants. When really all that happens is they get overwatched and shot in the face n instant deathbed by a chaos lord.

To me the lore should describe them as just drugged up thugs who suicide charge the enemy lines because that's basically what they are. Making them out to be in the same league as aspect warriors is frankly laughable. The stats just don't remotely reflect the lore in the slightest..

You cannot make rules purely from fluff.
Several units and models state alot in the fluff, but to make this possible in game it would be a huge advantage.

How would you propose to update wyches out of curiosity please?

Yeah.. They work fine in theory as gladiatorial combatants and fast CC specialists. \

On the table top though, they need to deal with things like shooting, which they struggle to do.

They actually have stats on par with aspect warriors, they just have bad armour and wargear.

you cannot mix tabletop rules with fluff otherwise factions would be at a huge advantage/disadvantage

Well, if you compare them a guardsman they are pretty brutal

 PhillyT wrote:
Yeah.. They work fine in theory as gladiatorial combatants and fast CC specialists. \

On the table top though, they need to deal with things like shooting, which they struggle to do.

The inability to handle shooting is kind of what makes them close combat and not ranged specialist though. The haywire makes them rock as antivehicle too. Unlike craftworld Eldar, they get assault vehicle access, so they don't need to take anything other than 1 unit's overwatch fire when they pick and choose a target. Tau's near global access to supporting fire, ignores cover (read ignore jink (boo)) and intercept rains on that parade, but it works well on others.

 Jackal wrote:
You cannot make rules purely from fluff.
Several units and models state alot in the fluff, but to make this possible in game it would be a huge advantage.

How would you propose to update wyches out of curiosity please?

Double their points cost.

Full inv save on overwatch and reduced 5+ inv on shooting.

Either rending or poison attacks so that they can actually hurt something. If I need twice the points of an enemy tactical squad to kill it in CC then something has went seriously wrong.

Give them access to wych weapons that reduce enemy ws to 1. Like they had last edition to deal with MC and Dreadnaughts.


Also there are plenty of models that are basically "just average" or "just cannon fodder". Orks, Imperial Guardsmen, gaunts, guardians, fire warriors; none of the lore says they are particularly good in fact it does a lot to understate their effectiveness with many described as only being effective in large numbers. Yet wyches are described at length as being these supreme warriors and yet are just plain mediocre. If you gave kabalite warriors combat drugs and close combat weapons you would have exactly the same unit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

RAWRAIrobblerobble wrote:

 PhillyT wrote:
Yeah.. They work fine in theory as gladiatorial combatants and fast CC specialists. \

On the table top though, they need to deal with things like shooting, which they struggle to do.

The inability to handle shooting is kind of what makes them close combat and not ranged specialist though. The haywire makes them rock as antivehicle too. Unlike craftworld Eldar, they get assault vehicle access, so they don't need to take anything other than 1 unit's overwatch fire when they pick and choose a target. Tau's near global access to supporting fire, ignores cover (read ignore jink (boo)) and intercept rains on that parade, but it works well on others.

No it doesn't. Ten wyches vs a tac squad. Flamer gets d3 hits, kills two wyches. Bolters kill another. Leaves 7 wyches left. Half your attacks miss, only a third wound, if you've sunk points into an agoniser you might claim one kill. Then he hits back and kills most of the unit and routs it. This assumes that the opponent let you get one full squad anywhere near his lines and that he only as something weak like a tac squad and not something more powerful, or that he would even have any troops on the ground rather than keep them in transports where they cannot be hurt.

For 15 pts each you can have DCAs which will beat the ever loving gack out of wyches or bloodbrides...

rememebr if they specced according to the fluff wytches proably would get beaten by tac marines anyway.Marines being one of the most "underpowered compared to the fluff" factions in 40k

BrianDavion wrote:
rememebr if they specced according to the fluff wyches proably would get beaten by tac marines anyway.Marines being one of the most "underpowered compared to the fluff" factions in 40k

Thats hugely debatable. Marines are hugely more vulnerable to shooting in the lore. Even a high power lasgun can kill a marine with a headshot. A bolt round can pierce power armor. Tau have thousands of crisis suits with plasam rifles who wipe out whole companies of marines during the damocles crusade. In Fulgrim one wraithlord kills most of the Phoenician Guard. In Path of the Incubi the Dark Eldar kill plague marines because they're so fast the marines can't actually hit them. Gauss weapons are meant to boil through power armor like paper.

The only place it really does not make sense is with factions like guard, orcs, tyranids and imperial guard who are meant to have to outnumber marines by 20:1 to be effective.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:


Thats hugely debatable. Marines are hugely more vulnerable to shooting in the lore.

Lolno.

http://forums.spacebattles.com/threads/40k-source-and-feats-thread.235176/#post-8614291

Here, have some examples of what Marines can do.

Now look at the mediocre grunt he is in-game.

If we were to match the fluff, Space Marines would have movie marine stats, if not more.

For example, PA is entirely capable of resisting barrages of both Autocannons and Heavy Bolter shots, and laughs at lasguns.

Fallen Angels page 411 wrote:“Kohl and Ephrial exchanged fire with them, dropping several with well-aimed shots. A burst of heavy bolter fire answered them, stitching the two Astartes with a stream of shells. Both warriors staggered beneath the hits, but their armour turned aside the blows.”

 Jackal wrote:
How would you propose to update wyches out of curiosity please?

A. Drop the price to closer to 7 points, leave as is.
Compare to a 9 point Daemonette, who has +1 WS, -1I +1A -1Ld 5+ Invul save all the time vs 4+ Invul in CC. Daemonic Instability, Deep Strike, and Daemon of Slaanesh- Rending, +3" to run

B. Drop to 8 points, Increase WS to 5, reduce BS to 3.

C. Drop them to 9 points, give them Rending. Basic Eldar guardians get a version of Rending when they shoot. And it is fluffy for Wyches, precision slashes with their knives and such

D. Drop them to 9 points, Change their save to 5++, 4++ in close combat.

E. Keep them at 10 points, give them Rending, and make the 4++ dodge work during the entire Combat phase, not just the Fight subphase (so works vs Overwatch)

And it gets pierced by hellgun, heavy bolters and autocannons are AP4, so it make sense they bounce of the armor.

And it depends which fluff you follow, really, some make Marines alright, others, eh...

The problem is there are lots of different variations of fluff. For example, if you read Codex: Space Marines, you get the feeling that they're undefeatable due to their awesome equipment and deep tactical approach to warfare. If you read Codex: Tau, space marines are described being stupid meat dying in droves to a gunline of pulse rifles. That's just like TV news in different countries.

I guess, you have to read more stuff rather than Codex: Your Guyz and settle somewhere in between.

Why are Tactical Marines considered elite troops? Why are Assault Marines considered elite assault troops? In game, either squad will get rolled by most dedicated assault units. In Fear to Tread the Blood Angels were casually annihilating swathes of Daemonettes and Bloodletters. In-game, a Space Marine player might as well concede if his opponent plops down a mono-Slaanesh Daemon army. 140 points of Space Marines will get wrecked by 100 points of Daemonettes in CC.

 Bobthehero wrote:
And it gets pierced by hellgun

But as soon as he tries to shoot at a Techmarine instead, the hellgun guy may as well just use his fists for all the difference it'll do.

a spaace marine can get shot in the face without a helmet on and just get pissed off.

And then there's that CSM who got decapitated by a single longlas shot to the (armored) face*shrugs*

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Bobthehero wrote:
And it gets pierced by hellgun

But as soon as he tries to shoot at a Techmarine instead, the hellgun guy may as well just use his fists for all the difference it'll do.

Until the Tempestor Prime tells the Scion to aim right.

In what story did an armored CSM get one-shotted by a long-las?

 Totalwar1402 wrote:

 Jackal wrote:


No it doesn't. Ten wyches vs a tac squad. Flamer gets d3 hits, kills two wyches. Bolters kill another. Leaves 7 wyches left. Half your attacks miss, only a third wound, if you've sunk points into an agoniser you might claim one kill. Then he hits back and kills most of the unit and routs it. This assumes that the opponent let you get one full squad anywhere near his lines and that he only as something weak like a tac squad and not something more powerful, or that he would even have any troops on the ground rather than keep them in transports where they cannot be hurt.

But Space Marines are also close-combat specialists -- experts at least -- in fluff.

You're also assuming there that they have a flamer, a weapon designed for this sort of thing.

Gaunts Ghost.

And its not one shooted, its head popping 1 shotiness. And I guess you could say he had a hotshot round in the long las, but still.

 MajorWesJanson wrote:

 Jackal wrote:
How would you propose to update wyches out of curiosity please?

A. Drop the price to closer to 7 points, leave as is.
Compare to a 9 point Daemonette, who has +1 WS, -1I +1A -1Ld 5+ Invul save all the time vs 4+ Invul in CC. Daemonic Instability, Deep Strike, and Daemon of Slaanesh- Rending, +3" to run

B. Drop to 8 points, Increase WS to 5, reduce BS to 3.

C. Drop them to 9 points, give them Rending. Basic Eldar guardians get a version of Rending when they shoot. And it is fluffy for Wyches, precision slashes with their knives and such

D. Drop them to 9 points, Change their save to 5++, 4++ in close combat.

E. Keep them at 10 points, give them Rending, and make the 4++ dodge work during the entire Combat phase, not just the Fight subphase (so works vs Overwatch)

I say E. After the introduction of overwatch I always thought they should have their Dodge save in the entire assault phase. I never really thought about rending before but that does sound like it would be a good rule for them too. I mean I don't think rending would be bad on AP- ccw models.

Mmmmm. No.

The toothed blade screamed and
protested, and then whined and smoked as the serrated, whirling cutting edge meshed and glued as it
ate into the monster’s viscous and toughened innards.
The Iron Warrior stumbled back, bellowing in pain and rage. The chainsword, smoking and
shorting as it finally jammed, impaled its chest. Reeking ichor and tissue sprayed across the
commissar and the elevator doorway.
Gaunt knew he could do no more. He dropped to the floor as the stricken creature rose again,
hoping against hope.
His prayers were answered. The rearing thing was struck once, twice… four or five times by
carefully placed las-shots which tore into it and spun it around. Gaunt somehow knew it the sniper
Larkin who had provided these marksman blasts.
On one knee, the creature rose and raged again, most of its upper armour punctured or shredded,
smoke rising and black liquid spilling from the grisly wounds to its face, neck and chest.
A final, powerful las-blast, close range and full-power, took its I head off.
Gaunt looked round to see the wounded Corporal Zeezo standing on the barricade.
The Vitrian grinned, despite the pain from his wound. “I went against orders, I’m afraid,” he
began. “I reset my gun for full charge.”

He was basically shot in the face at point blank range from a hot-shot lasgun. Which managed to kill him after the four long-las shots and chainsword embedded hilt-deep in his chest didn't do much other than piss him off.

I'm not really sure how that incident contradicts the idea thatt Space Marines don't give a gak about conventional small-arms fire. Hot-shot lasguns/hellguns are specifically noted for their lethality against Marines.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
He was basically shot in the face at point blank range from a hot-shot lasgun. I'm not really sure how that incident contradicts the idea thatt Space Marines don't give a gak about conventional small-arms fire.

And it took him out when he was down on one knee, after taking 5-6 wounds that each would have put a normal man out of action or killed him outright. That's not so bad as a description of Space Marine toughness.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Mmmmm. No.

The toothed blade screamed and
protested, and then whined and smoked as the serrated, whirling cutting edge meshed and glued as it
ate into the monster’s viscous and toughened innards.
The Iron Warrior stumbled back, bellowing in pain and rage. The chainsword, smoking and
shorting as it finally jammed, impaled its chest. Reeking ichor and tissue sprayed across the
commissar and the elevator doorway.
Gaunt knew he could do no more. He dropped to the floor as the stricken creature rose again,
hoping against hope.
His prayers were answered. The rearing thing was struck once, twice… four or five times by
carefully placed las-shots which tore into it and spun it around. Gaunt somehow knew it the sniper
Larkin who had provided these marksman blasts.
On one knee, the creature rose and raged again, most of its upper armour punctured or shredded,
smoke rising and black liquid spilling from the grisly wounds to its face, neck and chest.
A final, powerful las-blast, close range and full-power, took its I head off.
Gaunt looked round to see the wounded Corporal Zeezo standing on the barricade.
The Vitrian grinned, despite the pain from his wound. “I went against orders, I’m afraid,” he
began. “I reset my gun for full charge.”

He was basically shot in the face at point blank range from a hot-shot lasgun. Which managed to kill him after the four long-las shots and chainsword embedded hilt-deep in his chest didn't do much other than piss him off.

I'm not really sure how that incident contradicts the idea thatt Space Marines don't give a gak about conventional small-arms fire. Hot-shot lasguns/hellguns are specifically noted for their lethality against Marines.

Let's count.
1 Chainsword hit at str 3 - 1/3 to pierce armor, 1/3 to wound = 1/9 wounds.
5 lazgun hits at str 3 - 1/3 to pierce armor, 1/3 to wound = 1/3 wounds.
1 hot-shot lazgun hit without cover at str 3 - 1/3 to wound = 1/3 wounds.

7/9 wounds total. I hate to tell you but tabletop marine is statistically 2/9 tougher than that

Wrong book, I was talking about the swamp ambush in Traitor General

One chance. One shot. Rawne was no marksman, not like Larkin. He wasn’t even practiced with
the long-las. But it had a hotshot loaded and Rawne knew he had to make it count. He wouldn’t get
another.
The Chaos Marine’s flamer came up to roar again.
Rawne relaxed into the butt stock and fired.
Range was almost point-blank. The searing round took the Chaos Marine’s head clean off.

Still point blank, but the point stands, really, and a long las is still a light weapon.

my god, have we not already noted that the rules do not equal the fluff. here we go: RULES=/= FLUFF. there we go. read it again... good.

Actually, the rules are alright regarding to the fluff, when you ignore some of the stuff.

 Bobthehero wrote:
Actually, the rules are alright regarding to the fluff, when you ignore some of the stuff.

I am not surprised you would say that about IGhammer 40K.

Wouldn't it be funny if the game was more like the fluff, though?

Death of Antagonis wrote:There was a flash over his head, and a lascannon shot punched into a Bane Wolf’s gas reservoir. The tank exploded, spreading its angry death for dozens of metres around it. This time, it was the men of the Mortisian Guard whose screams were awful and short, and whose skin was puddling in the road. Bisset’s jaw dropped and he threw himself flat. The Leman Russ’s turret rotated in his direction, and the heavy bolter sponson chugged rounds. The turret hadn’t moved half its arc before a second lascannon beam blasted it from the chassis.

Armoured beings stormed past him. They were terrible, golden angels, and they fell upon the Guard with bolter and chainsword. They savaged the units that had escaped the release of the gas and tore the tanks apart. They were monsters who bore the garb of beauty. They were giants in the service of war turned into art. There were only five of them. There were a hundred times as many Guardsmen, and that was far too few. The battle was even more one-sided than the attack on the rebels had been. Within seconds, hulls had been ripped open, treads yanked from wheels and used as whips, and men scythed into shrieking meat. The Chaos Space Marines stood proudly in the carnage, gods well pleased by their allotment of blood. The surviving rebels emerged from their hiding places. They began to cheer, and the cry was taken up by more and more people pouring into the streets.