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This isn't going to be a thread ramming GW or GW products, as I play mostly warlord stuff anyways, and prefer historics to fantasy/scifi
I play atleast 3 other games that are better, and will always be better than warhammer, wh40k, kow etc.

I ask, because I am a games workshop hobbyist, who dabbles in mantic stuff when not dealing with my various historic models.

Is the game a good substitute for whfb?

My group plays WHFB nearly every week now, and we want to try something new, that will give a similar game.

Is KOW worth a go, or should I start my Hail Caesar conversions?

Thanks
Austin

Kings of War is a great substitute for WHFB. Turns are faster, movement is cleaner/easier (no wheeling) and units seem to last a little longer since the entire unit is either fighting, wavering, or dead. It takes a little getting used to not pulling casualties out of a unit but it works well. The magic phase is pretty generic (treated as another type of shooting attack) but that doesn't seem to be a deal breaker for our group.

To give you an example of how fast the game plays our last game was a 1500pts per person three way game (about 3000pts per person equivelent in WHFB terms.) The game took just under 2hrs.

The best thing about Kings of War is that the rules and most army lists are free on Mantic's website and even in there official events they allow you to proxie units with models other than their own. It's hard to not want to try a new rule set when it isn't going to cost anything to do it.

sarcastro01 wrote:
Kings of War is a great substitute for WHFB. Turns are faster, movement is cleaner/easier (no wheeling) and units seem to last a little longer since the entire unit is either fighting, wavering, or dead. It takes a little getting used to not pulling casualties out of a unit but it works well. The magic phase is pretty generic (treated as another type of shooting attack) but that doesn't seem to be a deal breaker for our group.

To give you an example of how fast the game plays our last game was a 1500pts per person three way game (about 3000pts per person equivelent in WHFB terms.) The game took just under 2hrs.

The best thing about Kings of War is that the rules and most army lists are free on Mantic's website and even in there official events they allow you to proxie units with models other than their own. It's hard to not want to try a new rule set when it isn't going to cost anything to do it.

I play representative scale games all the time, I'm used to not pulling off models as casualties, so that's no problem.

How is magic?

Thanks
Austin

As mentioned, Magic is very generic - though they fleshed it out a bit in a supplement.

Very few spells:
Zap! (n) - does n attacks at up to 24" range. This is the one that got fleshed out - effects that can be used by anybody with a Zap! - from Lightning Bolt (the standard Zap!) through Fireball (at shorter ranges you can make it less likely to hit, but add Blast (n) to a close quarters version (this last can only be used once per combat).

The expanded Zap! rules can be found Here.

Heal (n) is a pretty much the same, but heals damage to a unit instead of causing damage.

Dark Surge (n) adds an inch of movement for each success, but can only be used for Undead units.

And a few have a Breath Attack (n) - which is handled the exact same was as flame throwers, dragons breath, and similar nastiness.

Instead of having a dozen spells that do similar things KoW has a few spells, and all the spellcasters use them.

Having a consolidated system is one of the biggest advantages of Kings of War over WHFB.

The Auld Grump

 TheAuldGrump wrote:

Dark Surge (n) adds an inch of movement for each success, but can only be used for Undead units.

Actually, Shambling units, so that includes Obsidian Golems if you have an allied list with Undead and Abyssal Dwarves for instance.

Others have more accurately described the game than I. I would have to say that it is a very good "alternative". However, whether or not it's a good "replacement" for your group will really depend on your group.

Any full description of KoW is going to mention how much more streamlined and abstract it is than WHFB. This initially sounds off-putting to GW fans, but IMHO in-play it is revealed to be an excellent approach. The only way you are going to know is to give it a try. Luckily the rules and army lists are all FREE. Rules and a comparable list for almost every GW army here:
http://www.manticgames.com/free-rules.html
I strongly recommend that you and your friends take an evening and play KoW with your WHFB armies and see how you like it.

Here's a quick reference sheet that will make it even easier.
http://manticforum.com/forum/kings-of-war/kings-of-war-rules-discussion/3479-mantic-kings-of-war-quick-reference-sheet-v3-0-1-pdf-download

Thanks everyone

Its really not that abstract lol.
After finding the rules and giving them a once over, they remind me of warmaster a bit

Thanks
Austin

 Redbad wrote:


Is KOW worth a go, or should I start my Hail Caesar conversions?

Thanks
Austin

Do both! I've made my whole Roman army to be cross compatible between HC and KoW, the only exception is cavalry units who are supposed to be 5 models across (125mm) in KoW, and 6-8 models wide in HC (150-200mm). I've kept my cavalry at 5 wide, as I figure HC is more easily 'fudged' to make it work.

I think that KoW is a great alternative to Warhammer Fantasy. Especially, if your players are looking for something like Warhammer, but is cheaper, easier, and faster to learn and play.

Seriously though, with free rules, free army lists, and minimal invenstment of time to learn to play anyone looking for a Fantasy Battles game should do themselves a favor and give KoW a try.

Rules-wise, Kings of War is a much better game. It's like a mix of 6th and Ravening Hordes, where magic isn't overpowered, no real unit breaks the game, and magic items are enhancements. You'll win based on skill and movement, not by 3++/stubborn Tzeentch Chosen.

Fluff-wise, nothing beats WHFB (or 40k, even though it's not part of the discussion). The End Times fluff is amazing, it really shakes things up, and the armies are all seriously fleshed out with personality.

If you play for rules, play Kings of War. If you play for the story and the fluff, play Warhammer. That's the most unbiased answer I can give you. Both have their merits; it just depends on what kind of player you are.

timetowaste85 wrote:Rules-wise, Kings of War is a much better game. It's like a mix of 6th and Ravening Hordes, where magic isn't overpowered, no real unit breaks the game, and magic items are enhancements. You'll win based on skill and movement, not by 3++/stubborn Tzeentch Chosen.

Fluff-wise, nothing beats WHFB (or 40k, even though it's not part of the discussion). The End Times fluff is amazing, it really shakes things up, and the armies are all seriously fleshed out with personality.

If you play for rules, play Kings of War. If you play for the story and the fluff, play Warhammer. That's the most unbiased answer I can give you. Both have their merits; it just depends on what kind of player you are.

Why not use the story and fluff of Warhammer and the rules of KoW? I've said it before, but sometimes I still can't believe that folks aren't willing to break the barriers a bit and mix it up. There's no reason to put up with weak fluff, bad rules or uninspiring miniatures. For myself, I've found that the most satsifying recipe for gaming is choose the fluff, rules and miniatures that you like best, mixx well, season to taste and enjoy!

Redbad wrote: After finding the rules and giving them a once over, they remind me of warmaster a bit

A very good observation. For those who'se experience with games extends beyond 40k and WHFB, KoW really reads like a 15mm or 6mm element based ruleset that has been scaled up for 28mm. This is by no means a bad thing, as it's what allows the game to be tactical without weighing you down with unnecessary rules but as far as the degree of abstraction, it's definitely at a level more associated with smaller scale games.

We are playing a game today. Bretonnia vs orcs. So kingdoms of men vs orcs lol.

The rules really do have a warmaster/hail caesar level of abstraction. Atleast they don't play like DBA (which is a fine system in its own merit) but converts from the warhammer realm of thinking would be boggled.

I enjoy lots of games similar to kings of war, most of which are 2-6mm ancients games. I should enjoy it.
Although.... The fact that you do nothing on your opponents turn is kind of weird. Its an incredibly igo-ugo set. That might bother me.

We shall see

Thanks
Austin

 Redbad wrote:
We are playing a game today. Bretonnia vs orcs. So kingdoms of men vs orcs lol.

The rules really do have a warmaster/hail caesar level of abstraction. Atleast they don't play like DBA (which is a fine system in its own merit) but converts from the warhammer realm of thinking would be boggled.

I enjoy lots of games similar to kings of war, most of which are 2-6mm ancients games. I should enjoy it.
Although.... The fact that you do nothing on your opponents turn is kind of weird. Its an incredibly igo-ugo set. That might bother me.

We shall see

Thanks
Austin

It is odd at first but because you literally do NOTHING during your opponent's turn, it is very, very quick. It's designed to be played with a chess clock, actually. It's faster than traditional igougo (where both players interact such as rolling dice) and much faster than threaded turns (waiting for the other player to go). I really prefer this style of igougo as, since I'm rolling no dice and doing nothing during my opponent's turn it frees me up to plan my turn so that when it's my go, bam, I'm already enacting my plan.

True, it moves very quickly. We've tried having the innactive opponent roll the defense and break tests. It's an easy switch if you want to give them something to do that doesn't affect the game.

And do try the chess clock - it really makes a difference in the flow of the game, forcing players to do their thinking while the other player is taking his turn.

Heck, I recommend using a chess clock in WARMACHINE as well.

The Auld Grump

We played, no chessclock, a 1000 pt game.

It went pretty well. We had to refer back to rules a bunch, but it was good.

I outflanked his whole army, and he broke around turn 4.
We finished up in an hour.

Then two of our friends played abyssal dwarfs vs twilight kin. That game wrapped up turn 3 due to some good dice rolls.

They didnt like the game, it felt too "gamey" but i enjoyed it lol

Thanks
Austin

When I'm trying to get my friends to adopt a new game, without making it obvious, I let them win the first game.

Sure it may sound like something you do with small children, but I can assure you it is a strategy that works well with adults.

On multiple occasions I've tried to recruit a new player and crsuhed them their first game, due to bad dice rolls on their part and stellar roles on mine, and those players never came back for a second game.

We ran a Blood Bowl league about 2 years back and I got my friend Greg to play. I have NEVER seen a game go so badly for someone. He just did himself in with dice rolls and almost half his starting team was dead by the end of the first match. Seriously, it's hard to kill a player in Blood Bowl and he took 4 casualties. He refused to play again.

 adamsouza wrote:


We ran a Blood Bowl league about 2 years back and I got my friend Greg to play. I have NEVER seen a game go so badly for someone. He just did himself in with dice rolls and almost half his starting team was dead by the end of the first match. Seriously, it's hard to kill a player in Blood Bowl and he took 4 casualties. He refused to play again.

Same thing happened to me in my first game of BB. I had been playing Fantasy for a few years and my friend got me and his brother to both play our first game against each other.

I was Chaos and he was Skaven and all I could do was knock his guys down and everything he did murdered one of my guys. I was essentially tabled which is crazy. I'm honestly surprised I kept playing after such a beatdown.

Its interesting how we go back and forth over this one with WHFB and KoW.

have had a similar conversation with others over this, from a personal experience its a different style of game, more smooth and flexible.

It does though fix the overriding problem that is broken in WHFB and that is that a monster can take on say 20 spear-men, but not the other way around type situation and that the system does not need the latest £100+ model to win.

The advantage with KoW is you can download the rules and try is nice.

If one had any criticisms it would be the lack of acting in opponents turn to cause a shift in tactics and change play. But that's just a personal thing.

Its going through some changes it seems so we will see.

If your after fantasy army rules also consider Jake Thorntons God of Battles from Wargames Foundry. Also a nice system.

At the end of the day depends on what your after, as you can play WHFB from V1 to current. etc

If you are interested in seeing what some of the planned changes to KoW2 are

 Redbad wrote:
Thanks everyone

Its really not that abstract lol.
After finding the rules and giving them a once over, they remind me of warmaster a bit

Thanks
Austin

That was my thought(s): that it resembled Warmaster.

I tend to prefer it to WHFB, but have only played it once, and then a year or so ago.

Most of the players to which I have access tend to play other games. And I am the only one with any 28mm/30mm models.

MB

 adamsouza wrote:
If you are interested in seeing what some of the planned changes to KoW2 are

Spoiler:

[img]

Not a fan of the heights of units and terrain thing or messing with the war machines.
Headstrong change also has me scratching my head.

Iirc the heights thing was brought in because tournament players were taking advantage of the whole diorama and allowable proxy nature of the game, making units that were so tall that no terrain existed which they could not gain line of sight over, so something had to be done.

 NTRabbit wrote:
Iirc the heights thing was brought in because tournament players were taking advantage of the whole diorama and allowable proxy nature of the game, making units that were so tall that no terrain existed which they could not gain line of sight over, so something had to be done.

Though, to be honest, I had already seen the heights thing as a house rule - and it was requested by the person that had the overly tall unit. (More accurately, he said something like 'hey guys - these dwarf rangers aren't taking their own mountain with them - the unit is only about yay tall'.)

The unit was, in fact, dwarf rangers, placing a banner on the top of a rocky peak - great looking unit.

The Auld Grump - they looked more like a band of explorers than a military unit.

 adamsouza wrote:
If you are interested in seeing what some of the planned changes to KoW2 are

Spoiler:

[img]

Looking at the war engine tweaks, I feel compelled to point out the sixth product here.

Also, a bit disappointed that cheat sheet doesn't include 'heroes do more than wander around like random nutters'.

And 'true' line of sight has no place in a mass battle game.

privateer4hire wrote:

 adamsouza wrote:
If you are interested in seeing what some of the planned changes to KoW2 are

Spoiler:

[img]

Not a fan of the heights of units and terrain thing or messing with the war machines.
Headstrong change also has me scratching my head.

They originally used TLOS, which didn't work well at all in such an abstract game with such openness to a wide variety of models, manufacturers and proxies. Even in my friendly games we always had lots of head-scratching and such in trying to work out who could see (over the top of) who - especially for missile troops and warmachines and units on hills or raised ground.

privateer4hire wrote:

Headstrong change also has me scratching my head.

Headstrong units would roll their 4+, if they fail, they continue to be Wavering, otherwise, they are just Disordered. Makes good sense to me!

Sure. I'm still seeing several of these things as unnecessary. As long as the 2.0 rules and lists are free, I'll adjust and move on.

I'm planning on giving it a try, for the simple reason that it seems less overwhelmed by special rules. Not that special rules are bad, but I've been trying to play some WHFB with my father, and it hasn't worked out the best. Time is a factor, and when we spend half the time we have allotted looking up various rules...

I feel like this might be easier for the two of us to pick up and play. Is that the case?

 toasteroven wrote:
I'm planning on giving it a try, for the simple reason that it seems less overwhelmed by special rules. Not that special rules are bad, but I've been trying to play some WHFB with my father, and it hasn't worked out the best. Time is a factor, and when we spend half the time we have allotted looking up various rules...

I feel like this might be easier for the two of us to pick up and play. Is that the case?

absolutely. You'll have the rules memorized halfway through the game.

However, be sure to cleanse yourself of Warhammer rules before you start playing, or you might play it incorrectly (many similar concepts, but different rules approach)