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(August 21, 2016) Vehicle & Monstrous Creature Design Rules (V6)  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
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Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




I've been working at this thing for a while now, and have a LOT of feedback and support from this forum as well as my home group. This is a rule set for creating your own vehicles and monstrous creatures (as well as their oversized counterparts) for warhammer 40k. I think it is nearing completion, but it will continue to be updated as need be based on your suggestions. The rules here will give you a very good starting g point for making your own units. If you rebuilt the ones from the codecies, I personally feel you would end up with better balance than what is out now.

At the end there are a couple houserule suggestions to balance things out a bit, but that was more for personal reference and you should feel free to ignore them.

Thanks for taking the time to check it out!

Update: Vehicle & Monstrous Creature Design Rules V6

This message was edited 20 times. Last update was at 2016/08/21 08:36:44


   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Saratoga Springs, NY

Hmmm, vehicle design, how does your formula rate the weapon options for the Hammerhead Tau tank? Besides the obvious clusterfeth that is the secondary weapon cost options? In previous editions the tank was significantly less expensive, but had to pay something like +15 points for the ion cannon and +50 points for the railgun. Now the base platform is much more expensive but the cost of the weapons are comparable.

Also, Tau devilfish, how does its cost vs capabilities rate vs other transports? It always felt way too expensive, but I'm actually beginning to enjoy it in 7th.

Like watching other people play video games (badly) while blathering about nothing in particular? Check out my Youtube channel: joemamaUSA!

BrianDavion wrote:
Between the two of us... I think GW is assuming we the players are not complete idiots.


Rapidly on path to becoming the world's youngest bitter old man. 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




The hammerhead matched out fine, as did the devilfish. The rail gun is 3.5 meltaguns to add to a vehicle now. The devilfish only falls short when compared to the waveserpent, and I pointed out that one already


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The weird one for tau was the bomber, the generator itself is over 50 points! Way too expensive for what it does...

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/02/04 02:20:20


   
Made in us
[DCM]
Bird from Hell






Where did you find updated (official) rules for this? The only GW design rules I know of are from a long time ago, well before d-weapons, pulse bombs, etc, even existed.

#FreezePeach

My DKoK painting blog.

My X-Wing painting blog.

SELL ME YOUR FORGEWORLD SUPERHEAVIES

Armored Company
W/L/D: 2130235/0/1 (I played myself once and had a draw) 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




I took a month, mathed it out, and built vehicles from every codex from land speeders to phantom titans. My math is dead on, and now I wanna share

   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Saratoga Springs, NY

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
The hammerhead matched out fine, as did the devilfish. The rail gun is 3.5 meltaguns to add to a vehicle now. The devilfish only falls short when compared to the waveserpent, and I pointed out that one already


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The weird one for tau was the bomber, the generator itself is over 50 points! Way too expensive for what it does...
I will agree on the bomber. I don't know if you have access to Forge World stuff, but how about the Barricuda flier? I love the thing, but how does it compare to the codex fliers on a point to capability standpoint?

Like watching other people play video games (badly) while blathering about nothing in particular? Check out my Youtube channel: joemamaUSA!

BrianDavion wrote:
Between the two of us... I think GW is assuming we the players are not complete idiots.


Rapidly on path to becoming the world's youngest bitter old man. 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




All together, I tested the update I did with around 25 different vehicles. My math makes them 5-15 points over for normal sized vehicles, and around 40 over for superheavies. That is intentional so people don't abuse it.

   
Made in ca
Paramount Plague Censer Bearer





How about the Razorback, it seems at least 15 points overcosted nowadays.

My win rate while having my arms and legs tied behind by back while blindfolded and stuffed in a safe that is submerged underwater:
100% 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




The barracuda is more appropriately costed than either of the other flyers.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Razorback is actually 6 points overcosted, its primary target isn't used often. (Light infantry without a transport)

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/02/04 02:55:42


   
Made in us
The Last Chancer Who Survived




On moon miranda.

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
I was told that I would probably catch hell if I posted the updated rules, so I figured I'd talk about some of the results. Starting with the revenant titan. While the thing is very synergistic in and of itself, it isn't actually undercosted! Its weapons and survivability is in line with other superheavy vehicles, the speed is what makes it crazy. Apparently GW point costed it at around 125 points by itself.

Now, believe it or not, the wave serpent only pays a whopping total of 15 points for the serpent shield. Which is definitely under costed.

Anyone have any questions about any faction besides necrons? ( I haven't had a chance to update them yet)
This is pretty common with the superheavies, particularly bigger ones. You can take 5 Baneblades at 2500+pts and throw them against a 1500pt Reaver Titan and the Reaver's going to come out ahead every time, same thing with a Heirophant or the like.

IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.

Heavy Gear Painting Log, Northern Guard, Southern Republican Army, and Terrain
The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.  
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




It is strange, the vehicles all use the same math, but get very different results on the table. The metrics used are survivability, speed/ armor, damage output, and special rules/options. Games workshop hasn't changed their process for making vehicle rules, just adjusted the points.

   
Made in us
[DCM]
Bird from Hell






Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
I took a month, mathed it out, and built vehicles from every codex from land speeders to phantom titans. My math is dead on, and now I wanna share


Ok, so what you're saying is that you invented your own rules that produce output that matches GW's point costs. What exactly is the purpose of this?

#FreezePeach

My DKoK painting blog.

My X-Wing painting blog.

SELL ME YOUR FORGEWORLD SUPERHEAVIES

Armored Company
W/L/D: 2130235/0/1 (I played myself once and had a draw) 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




I wanted to post it for the community, it was fun, and people have mentioned how cool it would be to have an updated version. I was originally going to link it in proposed rules, found out that would be a bad idea. Pm me if you want a copy to play around with!

   
Made in us
[DCM]
Bird from Hell






How is it a bad idea? GW's rules can't be copyrighted, so you're free to post whatever you like.

#FreezePeach

My DKoK painting blog.

My X-Wing painting blog.

SELL ME YOUR FORGEWORLD SUPERHEAVIES

Armored Company
W/L/D: 2130235/0/1 (I played myself once and had a draw) 
   
Made in us
Prescient Cryptek of Eternity





New Bedford, MA USA

The only thing bad about VDR is months of me having to put up with gakky, WAAC, poorly converted models some of my gaming mates will show up with, if I try to use a VDR vehicle of my own.


   
Made in us
Lone Wolf Sentinel Pilot





Does this include flyers? In particular the nephilim....
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




In that case, I'll post the rules here tomorrow! I didn't get any input from dark angels vehicles, sorry. They're the only marine faction I don't have access to :(

   
Made in us
Da Head Honcho Boss Grot




New Jersey, State of Perfection

The VDR rules aren't now, nor have they ever been, what GW used to price out its vehicles. In fact, at the time the VDR rules were published it was impossible to design an existing vehicle at the cost published in its codex, VDR typically resulted in a roughly 30% price increase IIRC.

This ain't no pansy GW Armor, son - Digital Sculpting Plog, Now with Heavy Weapon Platforms!
Sympathy for the Devil, or: The Project Log from Hell

Ma55ter_fett wrote:It reads like the ramblings of a Nigerian lobotomized Shakespeare typed into a cellphone with a very aggressive autocomplete function.
 
   
Made in us
Lone Wolf Sentinel Pilot





Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
In that case, I'll post the rules here tomorrow! I didn't get any input from dark angels vehicles, sorry. They're the only marine faction I don't have access to :(

   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Good night everybody.

   
Made in nz
Warp-Screaming Noise Marine





Auckland, New Zealand

I'm quite keen to see how your rules work.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Download link added to my first post! Feedback is appreciated


chaos0xomega wrote:
The VDR rules aren't now, nor have they ever been, what GW used to price out its vehicles. In fact, at the time the VDR rules were published it was impossible to design an existing vehicle at the cost published in its codex, VDR typically resulted in a roughly 30% price increase IIRC.


While the VDR rules they provided aren't exact, I'm guessing they didn't create a completely new algorithm for us to use.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/02/04 20:04:19


   
Made in us
Prescient Cryptek of Eternity





New Bedford, MA USA

Just looked over the file, and it's pretty impressive.

I did notice that there are no Necron entries. Are you planning on including them in the future ?

   
Made in gb
Ultramarine Land Raider Pilot on Cruise Control





Silver Spring, MD

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
Download link added to my first post! Feedback is appreciated


chaos0xomega wrote:
The VDR rules aren't now, nor have they ever been, what GW used to price out its vehicles. In fact, at the time the VDR rules were published it was impossible to design an existing vehicle at the cost published in its codex, VDR typically resulted in a roughly 30% price increase IIRC.


While the VDR rules they provided aren't exact, I'm guessing they didn't create a completely new algorithm for us to use.

I don't believe they use an algorithm, period, nor would one want to when it comes to really costing units. There are far too many interactions between the stats of vehicles, their weapons, USR's and unique special rules, not to mention all the units they mesh with in their army and how they might synergize. You aren't going to capture all that in a formula, so you take an educated guess at it and you playtest.

Edit: and I suppose it's possible they had a basic formula for arriving at their initial guess, but from what I remember of the original VDR, it was something they came up with specifically to make rules on the fly for wacky new units. The VDR tended to be overpriced because it needed to be, otherwise all kinds of broken combinations would slip through.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/02/08 23:38:16


Battlefleet Gothic ships and markers at my store, GrimDarkBits:
 
   
Made in nz
Warp-Screaming Noise Marine





Auckland, New Zealand

Well, I knocked together three vehicles, see if they seem reasonable. I couldn't find an option for Sonicblasters though! I jsut decided, on the basis of nothing, to price them at 20 points.

Magnum Opus, 255 pts
A large tank, covered in leering mouths and gaping speakers and emitting a continuous babble of cacophonic discord into the air. It slowly grinds across the field, its sonic weaponry bursting heads and leaving swatches of the enemy with ruptured organs.
Superheavy Tank
BS 4
F 14
S 13
R 13
HP 6
Smoke Launchers, Spotlight, Dirgecaster, Combi-Bolter
Blastmaster with Large Blast
TwinLinked SpeedLoading Sonicblaster.

Rhapsody, 105 pts
A light hovering vehicle, manned by two Noisemarines who direct the battle as though they are involved in some form of performance. The screeching siren slung beneath the vehicle drives off those who come to close, while the rear mounted sonicblaster rips apart the bodies of more distant foes.
Small, Light Skimmer
BS 4
F 10
S 10
R 10
HP 2
Twinlinked Sonicblaster
Torrent Doomsiren

Overture, 100 pts
A slight walker frame, almost an exo-suit, bears the figure of a single Noisemarine forward ahead of his fellows. Protected by an aura of warp interference, the Overture strides froward to begin each battle with howls of destruction forcing the enemy to dive to the ground.
Small, Light Walker
WS 4
BS 4
S 5
F 10
S 10
R 10
I 4
A 2
Fleet, Scout, Daemon
Two Blastmasters
   
Made in se
Ancient Space Wolves Venerable Dreadnought






I... actually don't know. Help?

Dude, this seems like a good idea. How about making one for infantry? I could help if you want to, PM me.

To Valhall! ~2800 points

Tutorials: Wet Palette | Painting Station
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 CalgarsPimpHand wrote:
Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
Download link added to my first post! Feedback is appreciated


chaos0xomega wrote:
The VDR rules aren't now, nor have they ever been, what GW used to price out its vehicles. In fact, at the time the VDR rules were published it was impossible to design an existing vehicle at the cost published in its codex, VDR typically resulted in a roughly 30% price increase IIRC.


While the VDR rules they provided aren't exact, I'm guessing they didn't create a completely new algorithm for us to use.

I don't believe they use an algorithm, period, nor would one want to when it comes to really costing units. There are far too many interactions between the stats of vehicles, their weapons, USR's and unique special rules, not to mention all the units they mesh with in their army and how they might synergize. You aren't going to capture all that in a formula, so you take an educated guess at it and you playtest.

Edit: and I suppose it's possible they had a basic formula for arriving at their initial guess, but from what I remember of the original VDR, it was something they came up with specifically to make rules on the fly for wacky new units. The VDR tended to be overpriced because it needed to be, otherwise all kinds of broken combinations would slip through.

As I've worked on this, I've noticed that certain armies gain benefits for free with their vehicles, I believe this is where the army synergy lies.
@slaanesh devotee, those look awesome, good job!
@mathew, I would do that, but the variables for them are way to scattered. I wouldn't have been able to do this if I didn't have a starting g point.
Thanks for taking the time to check this stuff out, feel free to make more! And necrons are comming this weekend


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Slaanesh-Devotee wrote:
Well, I knocked together three vehicles, see if they seem reasonable. I couldn't find an option for Sonicblasters though! I jsut decided, on the basis of nothing, to price them at 20 points.

Magnum Opus, 255 pts
A large tank, covered in leering mouths and gaping speakers and emitting a continuous babble of cacophonic discord into the air. It slowly grinds across the field, its sonic weaponry bursting heads and leaving swatches of the enemy with ruptured organs.
Superheavy Tank
BS 4
F 14
S 13
R 13
HP 6
Smoke Launchers, Spotlight, Dirgecaster, Combi-Bolter
Blastmaster with Large Blast
TwinLinked SpeedLoading Sonicblaster.

Rhapsody, 105 pts
A light hovering vehicle, manned by two Noisemarines who direct the battle as though they are involved in some form of performance. The screeching siren slung beneath the vehicle drives off those who come to close, while the rear mounted sonicblaster rips apart the bodies of more distant foes.
Small, Light Skimmer
BS 4
F 10
S 10
R 10
HP 2
Twinlinked Sonicblaster
Torrent Doomsiren

Overture, 100 pts
A slight walker frame, almost an exo-suit, bears the figure of a single Noisemarine forward ahead of his fellows. Protected by an aura of warp interference, the Overture strides froward to begin each battle with howls of destruction forcing the enemy to dive to the ground.
Small, Light Walker
WS 4
BS 4
S 5
F 10
S 10
R 10
I 4
A 2
Fleet, Scout, Daemon
Two Blastmasters

The magnum opus is actually 300 points, you add the weapons base cost back to the bonus. Still, love the vehicles!
Share this nonsense with EVERYBODY!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/02/12 02:41:29


   
Made in us
Malicious Mandrake




Crawfordsville Indiana

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:

@mathew, I would do that, but the variables for them are way to scattered. I wouldn't have been able to do this if I didn't have a starting g point.


I had the infantry done once upon a time. It wasn't hard, it just needed some reverse engineering, and choosing a starting point. I chose marines, but that was when they were 15 points each. I have tried doing it again, but it appears it is a simple 1 point for each change, and 1 point for 6 inches of range.

Using Eldar/Dark Eldar as an example: Guardian Defenders are 9 points each, and so are Storm Guardians. They both have the same rules, only the Catapult changed to a pistol and CC weapon. The CC weapon and pistol up their attacks to 2, making them the same cost. Dire Avengers get a better save by 1 point, a better LD by 1 point, 6" more range for 1 point, and Counter attack for 1 point, making them 13 points. Dark Eldar Kabalite Warriors Get 6" more range for 1 point(don't forget the Battle Focus rule), the special rules for the guns make them different but not necessarily better than the other, lose 1 point for the loss of grenades, and lose 1 point because they can't assault after shooting. Making them 8 points each. Wyches gain 1 for initiative, lose 1 for the SV, lose 1 for the loss of 6" of Range(again due to Battle Focus), gain 1 for Dodge, and gain 1 for combat drugs. Making them 10 points per model.

Yes, I understand some of the rules are bad as compared to others, and I know I am adding the maximum distance to the Battle Focus roll, but it works. Have fun, please note that further upgrades were not done, and I feel that GW just randomly throws numbers at upgrades. Does an upgrade to SV4+ on Guard units still cost almost as much as a marine?

All the worlds a joke and the people merely punchlines
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 megatrons2nd wrote:
Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:

@mathew, I would do that, but the variables for them are way to scattered. I wouldn't have been able to do this if I didn't have a starting g point.


I had the infantry done once upon a time. It wasn't hard, it just needed some reverse engineering, and choosing a starting point. I chose marines, but that was when they were 15 points each. I have tried doing it again, but it appears it is a simple 1 point for each change, and 1 point for 6 inches of range.

Using Eldar/Dark Eldar as an example: Guardian Defenders are 9 points each, and so are Storm Guardians. They both have the same rules, only the Catapult changed to a pistol and CC weapon. The CC weapon and pistol up their attacks to 2, making them the same cost. Dire Avengers get a better save by 1 point, a better LD by 1 point, 6" more range for 1 point, and Counter attack for 1 point, making them 13 points. Dark Eldar Kabalite Warriors Get 6" more range for 1 point(don't forget the Battle Focus rule), the special rules for the guns make them different but not necessarily better than the other, lose 1 point for the loss of grenades, and lose 1 point because they can't assault after shooting. Making them 8 points each. Wyches gain 1 for initiative, lose 1 for the SV, lose 1 for the loss of 6" of Range(again due to Battle Focus), gain 1 for Dodge, and gain 1 for combat drugs. Making them 10 points per model.

Yes, I understand some of the rules are bad as compared to others, and I know I am adding the maximum distance to the Battle Focus roll, but it works. Have fun, please note that further upgrades were not done, and I feel that GW just randomly throws numbers at upgrades. Does an upgrade to SV4+ on Guard units still cost almost as much as a marine?

Now that is interesting, I had started to break it down based on minimum unit size, and build them in clusters of wounds from 1-10. I'll see what I can do with that as a starting point in the future. I have to catch up on my 2 RPG's I'm currently running.

   
Made in kz
Perfect Shot Dark Angels Predator Pilot




Kazakhstan

With some aproximation Nephilim Jet Fighter comes out to be around 150 points without it's "Dedicated Hunter" rule. Pretty fair.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And LS Vengeance is 114 points. I like it more and more.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/02/12 06:02:45


Dark Angels ~ 7350pts (about 5800 painted);
Ultramarines ~ 4700pts (about 2700 painted);
Imperial Knights ~ 1300pts (about 800 painted);
Skitarii and Mechanicum ~ 2000pts (about 1800 painted);
Assassins ~ 850pts;
Tyranids ~ 2000pts 
   
 
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