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Folks,
The bolt action minis are 28mm (about the same as 40k), so I can use my craters, forests, and ruins (generic non sci-fi) pretty easy. I have a question regarding the vehicles. They say they are 1/72nd. I thought 28mm was like 1/35th. Are the tanks small for the scale? Also, If you guys could point me to some places where I can make some: cobble roads, hedge rows and fields I would be much appreciative.
DrG

28mm is approximately 1/64 I believe. 1/72 is roughly 20mm

 doktor_g wrote:
Folks,
The bolt action minis are 28mm (about the same as 40k), so I can use my craters, forests, and ruins (generic non sci-fi) pretty easy. I have a question regarding the vehicles. They say they are 1/72nd. I thought 28mm was like 1/35th. Are the tanks small for the scale? Also, If you guys could point me to some places where I can make some: cobble roads, hedge rows and fields I would be much appreciative.
DrG

Official Warlord Bolt Action 28mm is 1/56 scale. Some companies also make 1/60 scale and some people use 1/48 kits from Tamiya and the like. 1/35 is way, way too big (like 40k vehicle big), while 1/72 is way too small (for 20mm figures)

So are the tanks and vehicles appropriately sized?

Looks like the planes are very petite, but I didn't see any rules for them anyway.

Terrain suggestions?

 doktor_g wrote:
So are the tanks and vehicles appropriately sized?

Looks like the planes are very petite, but I didn't see any rules for them anyway.

Terrain suggestions?

Yeah Warlord's tanks are in scale to their figures. As for the airplanes Warlord sells, they are diecast scale models to use as fancy tokens (in Bolt Action, airplanes aren't zooming around, you can call in air strikes, and place a token where the airstrike is coming in... so you can use a model plane if you want)

They might be supposedly to scale to their vehicles but they obviously are not. 1/48th scale is closer of the two scale to actual scale. If Warlord did not use heroic scale then perhaps 1/56 would be accurate. As it is I have seen Warlord vehicle crew placed in a 1/48th Marder 3 placed alongside a picture of a real Marder with a crewman in roughly the same position and it fit perfectly, so I use 1/48th scale for my Germans. Any other army I have is just a side project and I am not putting the time into hunting down good 1/48th scale models.

Without heroic scale we might have a match with 1/56th. Now that said, either will work, it just looks funny when you have troopers almost as tall or taller than the vehicles they ride in. Play with either, just ensure your army vehicles are the same scale with each other or else it will look wonky.

Warlord games arent heroic scale... And if they are then they are tiny heroics.

28mm I thought was 1/56 scale. So their whole range as far as im aware is 1/56 scale isnt it?

It's pretty simple. 1/48 figures are taller than 28mm, so use 1/48 vehicles when using 1/48 figures. 1/48 works out to roughly ~33mm to ~34mm.

1/56 is the proper scale based on the height of 28mm miniatures.

Having spent a considerable time at Aberdeen Proving Grounds (before it was moved), the American Armoured Foundation tank museum, and having ridden inside of a functional T-34, it's easy to see where the problem lies: most people think that WW2 armored vehicles are much larger than they actually are.

For example, here is a Sherman.

The height of an average US infantryman is higher than the body of the Sherman tank. Look at the guy standing at the front.

And here is 28mm Artizan figure next to a 1/48 Sherman. (on the left)


As you can see, the 28mm Artizan figure is way way shorter than the Sherman's body compared to the previous pic of the guy standing in front of the real life Sherman, above. 1/48 Sherman is much much larger than it should be compared to the 28mm figure's height.

Another issue I have noticed in all scales is actually getting crew posed right too. Hence why they might not fit a lot of the time without looking awkward.

But as someone with tiny Japanese tanks I agree the scale is accurate. In my opinion, smaller tanks are better as its always great to have a smaller silhouette in warfare!

Here's a pic of me (in Aliens Colonial Marine gear, for anachronistic purposes) standing next to one of the last Panzer IV's in the world, so you can get a sense of how small they are.

Nice gear, you should consider making the swivel mounted support gun like in the 2nd movie. Those things were pretty impressive.



The main Japanese battle tank. Of course Japanese were smaller but that just makes you appreciate the size a bit too.

This is getting me in a tank mood. Gonna paint tank tonight I guess.

 Swastakowey wrote:
Nice gear, you should consider making the swivel mounted support gun like in the 2nd movie. Those things were pretty impressive.

Thanks! M56 Smart Gun? Nah, I've already got too much invested in my current rig

 Swastakowey wrote:

The main Japanese battle tank. Of course Japanese were smaller but that just makes you appreciate the size a bit too.
This is getting me in a tank mood. Gonna paint tank tonight I guess.

I have a picture of my friend sitting on a Japanese tank from Aberdeen, somewhere. He's like 6'5 and 275, so it's pretty comical. I'll see if I can find it tonight and post it!

That would be awesome to see haha.

 ProfessionalAmateur wrote:
28mm is approximately 1/64 I believe.

It is not. 28mm to-the-eye (what most wargames miniatures are measured to) is 1/56. A bad Wikipedia article continues to perpetuate 1/64-as-28mm and people continue to say it even though it isn't true. 1/64 is closest to old style 25mm figures that were sometimes measured to the top of the head. 1/64 vehicles are dwarfed by 28mm figures of all types.

When dealing with 28mm figures your choices are basically 1/56 and 1/48. Here's your details, pros and cons.

1/56
-Most accurate to the size of a true-scale 28mm model
-Sold mostly by wargames companies
-1/56 wargames models Usually have slightly less detail than a model kit, but tend to be a bit more sturdy for the battlefield having less fiddly plastic bits.
-Tend to very well match the realistic proportions of plastic historical wargames miniatures.
-Works well with older metal 25mm ranges of minis, many of which are available quite affordably.

1/48
-More Options, and more affordable options
-Sold mostly by model kit makers
-Usually have a slightly higher level of detail and more pieces per kit.
-May appear visually congruent with some 28mm figures due to the added height of a base under a model
-Slightly larger hatches and seats may better visual match the slightly "heroic" (i.e. Chunky) proportions of most metal wargames miniatures.

Honestly, on the tabletop, the difference usually isn't too pronounced unless you have the same vehicle represented in two scales and very nearby each other. WIth Modern and Sci-Fi models I rarely use anything 1/56 as it tends to look shrimpy next to sci-fi figs which tend to be chunky in dimension and/or taller than 28mm to-the-eye. However if one is basing their ww2 figs around the relatively recent ranges of plastic figures, 1/56 is a viable option for scale-perfect vehicles.

 Eilif wrote:

1/48
-More Options, and more affordable options

I do not believe this is true anymore. The last few years have seen an explosion on the 1/56 scale WW2 vehicle market. For example, the only Borgward Wanze C that I can find is Warlord's 1/56 scale one. Methinks the 1/56 market for wargaming vehicle needs is eclipsing the 1/48 scale modeling one.

I would pick a wargaming miniature over a model pretty much in every case. Models are too fragile for wargaming purposes. Before anyone says "what do you do with them, throw them around?" let me say (1) it's usually what other people do with my miniatures that makes me nervous and (2) models are meant to be displayed while miniatures are meant to be handled and have to stand up to (often inadequate) storage.

Bolt Action figures are in a form of exaggerated/heroic scale - they have big hands and heads. While Doug's tank pics work, and it's less of an obvious problem for larger models here's where it's more visually problematic - small vehicles start to look like clown cars.

Actual Jeeps





Warlord Jeeps

judgedoug wrote:

 Eilif wrote:

1/48
-More Options, and more affordable options

I do not believe this is true anymore. The last few years have seen an explosion on the 1/56 scale WW2 vehicle market. For example, the only Borgward Wanze C that I can find is Warlord's 1/56 scale one. Methinks the 1/56 market for wargaming vehicle needs is eclipsing the 1/48 scale modeling one.

Maybe not quite as pronounced, but there are still quite a number of WW2 tanks available for $20 via 1/48. Not so many in 1/56. Also, I think you'll find examples where both scales have vehicles not available in the other.

Azazelx wrote:Bolt Action figures are in a form of exaggerated/heroic scale - they have big hands and heads. While Doug's tank pics work, and it's less of an obvious problem for larger models here's where it's more visually problematic - small vehicles start to look like clown cars.

Spoiler:

Actual Jeeps





Warlord Jeeps


[spoiler]

With metal figures you are almost always going to have the big hands, weapons, wrists and usually slightly bigger bodies to match them and probably big heads following that. You just can't make certain things true-scale and still have them be sturdy enough to be handled in gameplay. Plastic can accommodate some of these in true scale but various 28mm plastic figure kits are already known to have certain overly-fragile weapons, etc because the designers moved too far down the "true-scale" path.

It's probably just having been raised on GW and other similarly chunky brands, but I don't mind "Heroic" proportions, even on historical figs. On the other hand I don't dislike more realistically proportioned figures either. If I got into Bolt Action, it'd be hard to choose between the new plastic kits and chunky classic metals like Harlequin.

Here's cobbles: [url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AokP8Nc4758[url]

Thanks for all the help fellas! Really helps seeing the pics!

Just want to chime in and say that just a few years ago the 1/56 vehicle market was nearly non-existent. There were a few companies offering a few resin or metal kits, and that was it. A few of those companies called their kits "28mm scale", but the vehicles were actually 1/48 scale. (Lookin at you Black Tree)
1/48 scale model kits and toys were readily available and cheaper, so folks who wanted to do 28mm WWII began using them.

Fast forward to the present and there are exponentially more 28mm / 1/56 scale kits around, some even in plastic, with more in the works. Look at Warlord Games and Rubicon Models.

These are BA troopers with some Matchbox MBX jeeps. I think they scale well enough for the table top. The Jeeps are a little bit small, but if you pull the windshield off it isn't as noticeable.



Corgi did make a line of 1/50 scale vehicles. If I could find them I would probably try them out.

For my tanks/armor (the little that I have, but don't use) I go with 1/48 or 1/50, tending to favor 1/48. I find that size gives a good selection and seems to fit perfectly when placed next to my models. I will try to snag a photo if I can.

I think 1/56 vehicles look too small for Bolt Action infantry. They might more accurately represent the height of the models (I've never checked) but I don't think they accurately represent the girth of the models.

Look at how small the barrel and mantlet is on Wittman's Tiger model compared to the actual photo:





You see it on a lot of tanks where there's a commander on the tank or sticking out of the hatch, often they look like they couldn't even fit their shoulders through the hatch. Compare how big the commander is to a historical photo where an actual person is poking out of an actual real life tank and you'll see that 1/56 tanks are much more cramped than even the real life ones, lol.

For that reason my preference would be for 1/48, though I haven't started a 28mm BA force yet, so we'll cross that bridge when (if) I get to it, lol.

It all boils down to a matter of preference based on the fact that most 28mm figures have heroic proportions.

If you like oversized vehicles that are larger than reality (the 40k effect), 1/48 is the way to go.

If you like correct-scale vehicles, knowing that your infantry are much fatter than real infantry (but the correct height), 1/56 is the way to go.

If you are using much truer-scale 28mm figures, such as Perry, you pretty much use 1/56 unless you really like oversized 40k tanks, as Perry 28mm figs next to 1/48 look like children.

Perry figures WW2 are done at 1/56th, with realistic proportions, hence why they look so good and fit well with 1/56th vehicles.

Other WW2 in 28mm has a more cartoon look to it. Lots of people like it, but I find I dont like it. Gimme the Perry stuff everytime.

 judgedoug wrote:
Perry 28mm figs next to 1/48 look like children

My Perry Desert Rats look like children next to the 28mm Colonial Rangers from Northstar I am also currently working on. The Perry soldiers are really fine-boned.

 judgedoug wrote:
If you like oversized vehicles that are larger than reality (the 40k effect), 1/48 is the way to go.

I wouldn't really call it the 40k effect. The 40k effect is tall and wide vehicles that aren't very long. 1/48 with 28mm models certainly doesn't look cartoonish like 40k does.

I think

1. 1/48 better matches the girth of Warlord's heroic scaled 28mm models.
2. 1/56 better matches the height of Warlord's heroic scaled 28mm models.
3. 1/56 is a good match for realistically scaled 28mm models like Perry's and (I believe) Wargames Factory.

Ideally I'd go for 3, but then you're really limiting the available range of models, so instead 1. is my preference. #2 just makes the vehicles look like toys to me.

At the bottom of this thread is a comparison of a Warlord Sherman to a 1.48 Tamiya Sherman: http://forum.wwpd.net/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=5035

I think the crewman would just look better scaled in the 1/48 vehicle when you consider some historical photos, he doesn't even look like he could fit himself down the hatch of the 1/56 model.

Taken from here: http://www.strijdbewijs.nl/

Id probably go the route of Perry/Foundry/old Westwind with 1/56th vehicles if I was gonna do 28mm WW2.

Reckon it could look really nice and as more plastic tank kits become available, there will be more decent kits to choose from.

Thankfully with 20mm and 1/72, one thing I dont have to worry about is vehicle scale or availability. With so many more years development its alot easier.

But give it a few more years and I suspect the variety will have increased ten fold. Part of it though will depend on how long Bolt Action can hold onto its share of the 28mm gamer market.

Big P wrote:
Part of it though will depend on how long Bolt Action can hold onto its share of the 28mm gamer market.

Bolt Action or Warlord?