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So on the other end of the Jetbike doom that shall visit us soon, I'm trying to compile a list of good units/equipment/weapons that will be direct counters to Jetbikes. Don't worry about survivability, just what will kill jetbikes most efficiently.

Obviously to know what will kill them, we'll need to see what they got going for them -

3+ armor, Toughness 4, 4+ Jink from shooting, 36' range (assuming scatter laser), 12 in movement, and very fast with their turboboost of 36'. and despite battle focus not really working, can still move 2d6 in assault phase after shooting (cause eldar), Any difficult terrain tests are dangerous terrain to jetbikes (means they take a wound on a 1 and can then try to save it on a 3+.) They are also ld8 naturally and can upgrade one guy to a warlock with psy mastery 1 (guide most likely) - gives 1 member a 4++

Interesting but not really part of this discussion is that they also have Bs4, WS4, Str 3, 1 attack, Initiative 5, hammer of wrath, and are not slowed by difficult terrain when charging. Falls back by 3d6 when failing morale. Has ancient doom rule too (hatred of slanesh and suffers -1 ldr if in combat with slanesh units). Cannot go to ground (not like it needs to) and cannot be pinned.


So... to sum it up, we're looking for ways to kill a unit at 36'-48' range generally that is T4, 3+ armor, 4+ cover all the time at will, and probably has a single 4++ character in it.

A few units come to mind -

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IOM -
Imperial Bombard/colossus heavy seige mortar - str 8-6, AP3, ignore cover, long range, large blast (I believe they changed the strength in the recent Vraks book but I don't have that one yet)
Hellhammer cannon (on various chassis LoW) - 36' str 10, AP1, ignores cover 10' blast
Divination inquisitor or librarian with perfect timing + plasma cannon servitors or plasma cannon devastators
Legion of the dammed with plasma cannons (they ignore cover) or plasma guns deep striking.
Earthshaker artillery battery - 120' range, str 9, AP3, attach a psyker with perfect timing will give them the ignore cover. Also can use Krieg order set for ignore cover (Krieg armored assault, the seige company does not have this order*credit AnmanderRake*
Typhon seige tank - 48' demolisher cannon (ap2) with 7' blast and ignores cover if it doesn't move *credit AnomanderRake*
Scorpius missile system + battle of keylek (see appendix for all the legacies of war - Imperial armour vol 2, second edition) for d3+1 str 8AP3 ignore cover blasts at 48' range *credit AnmanderRake*
Malcador Infernus (LoW) - str 7, ap3 hellstorm template (6' move + 18' torrent +16' template = 40' threat range - IA1 second edition) *credit KiloFix*
Fellblade with battle of keylek (LoW) 7" TL S7AP3 blast will comfortably toast an entire squad at once, while the Quad-Lascannons can fire reasonably effectively against flyers/Wraith monsters, and the Demolisher cannon is the bane of Wraithguard. The main gun can also fire a S9AP2 Armourbane round to get rid of pesky things like Fire Prisms & Wave Serpents. Also, as a Super-Heavy, it moves 12", so can at least keep pace with the Jetbikes unless they elect not to shoot, can outrange almost all of the ranged D in the codex, and is tough enough to not be a guaranteed corpse if it is caught by a Distortion volley. It can also do all of the above at once *credit IHateNids*
Deredeo with hellfire plasma cannonade - 36' large blast or heavy 4 plasma cannon (str 7, AP2). Can take battle of keylek to give it ignore cover on the blast option. Also has heavy bolter chest mount as a bonus and can have an additional aiolos missle launcher and if it doesn't move, can get helical targeting array. (skyfire and interceptor) *credit Mavnas*

Runner ups -

By drop pod/deep strike options:

drop pod sternguard with perfect timing and vengance rounds or at least an auspex (pushed down to runner up section as their mobility makes them only really being able to get to one maybe 2 units of bikes)
drop pod Psychic shriek also would be effective *credit Jimsolo* *also credit to AnomanderRake* - adds that any army with psy shriek - added entries to the ones that can deliver said power effectively
drop pod devestator centurion with grav cannons and hurricane bolters - averages 6 dead bikes even with jink *credit ansacs*
drop pod space wolf rune priest with plasma + biomancy primaris with helm of durfast for ignore cover shooting with str7 Ap2 and apparently the relic helmet also confers the ignore cover to the witchfire shooting attack too *credit to Mavnas* - drop pod units lack mobility usually to keep up the pressure so only rated in the runner up category
callidus assasin with neuroshredder vs ld8
Drop pod Fragioso dreads. Use with heavy flamers to get some 3-4 hits per dread at least. str 6 so 2's to wound and has chance to rending. Can also force them to run away afterwards or risk getting charged. *credit th3mainblak*

IG heavy weapons crews with missile launchers and lascannons with ignore cover order - really low shots to make it worth it but can get a few kills *credit KiloFix*
deep striking or by grav chute - hotshot volley guns (ap3, str 3) with ignore cover orders or perfect timing though will need to have orders character available at the desired range too. dropping in with a command squad with 4 plasma guns would work too to give the order to themselves (either allied pod/valk/vendetta*credit KiloFix and ansacs*


By other template/blast ideas:

flamestorm cannon (on land raider or predator) - AP3, good str, and template to ignore cover but too slow and short ranged to get a hit in. Can also be mounted on a space marine Siege Dreadnought chassis that can be drop podded in so it's a viable deep strike option as well. (see imperial armour warmachines of the adeptus astartes - requires lucius pattern drop pod however) - *credit Leth*
GK heavy incinerators - good speed and torrent, high str, and ignores cover but still allows armor saves
Cerastus Knight-Acheron (LoW)- Acheron pattern flame cannon - 12' move + giant hellstorm template (16' long so max of 28' threat range unfortunately puts it into the runner up section at best -not torrent like the sonic lance at last check) at str 7, AP3 *credit AnmanderRake*
Volcano cannon (various platforms - thunderhawk / shadowsword LoW) - str D at range but limited number of shots/ targets hit as well as only ignore cover on a 6' to wound so only an honorable mention
Deathstrike missile - Apoc blast, str 10, AP1, ignores cover but won't be shooting it reliably and one shot *Credit Kilofix*


By high volume of fire options:

Thunderfire cannon (possibly on achilles land raider) - for just lots of ranged fire to pile on wounds
Battle cannons - high str, high range, AP3, but still allows cover save
Tyranic war vets with 6 infiltrated storm talons to just dump loads of firepower into things but doesn't really stop armor/cover
Blood angel turn 1 storm raven formation with huricane bolters + assault cannons or plasma cannons to get firepower on target but won't really ignore armor(for all shots)/cover *credit Martel732*
Avenger bolt cannon /punisher cannon - avenger strike fighter/ Fire Raptor/ Vulture gunship - tons of shots but does not ignore cover saves. Drown them in bullets and make them jink at least
vulcan megabolter (various chassis LoW) - str 6, AP3, 64' range, and 15 -30 shots to get past the cover saves (note: can split the fire if the stormlord tank that it's mounted on usually doesn't move -- at 2 seperate targets and average of 10 wounds through jink/cover which you can essentially split 5 and 5 between 2 units to force more jinks) bubble wrap to protect the stormlord from charges/ D templates, and have a DA character with power field generator to give it 4++. *credit Mavnas*
sciaran tank - 48' str 7, AP4, but ignores the jink cover save
Retributor sisters with rending heavy bolters - lots of shots but will be slowed down by armor/cover.
Rapier batteries with quad heavy bolters are in the same boat *credit Kremlin*
Dark angel ravenwing with banner of devestation (12' move +24' boltguns at salvo 2/4 from 6 bikes can kill 4 bikes) *credit ansacs*
Wyverns - to just force save numbers but won't make the enemy jink and can be vulnerable to return fire from side armors *credit triant308*
Dominous Triple Bombard - moving it will throw a ST 10 AP 3 large blast up to 36 inches, but standing still it'll throw a apocalyptic template (the clover) with 3 hits at a much greater range (60" max) same ST and AP. Might saturate the area enough to hopefully wipe out some bikes. *credit Engine of war*
Valkyrie bolter boat - HB sponsons + multi-laser + missle pods to just bullet hose things down. *credit Tau Tse Tung*

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Tau -
Markerlights + riptide ion accelerator - AP2, ignores cover, large blasts or hammerhead ion cannon works as well
Another IMO good counter for Tau is the Skyray. With markerlights (out of which the Skyray itself provides 2 network ML at BS 4) you can fire s8 ap3 Seeker Missiles at BS 5 with Ignore Cover (one missile per markerlight). Takes some six missiles to kill about 4.2 deadbikes, almost makimg the Skyray's points back (4 bikes are 108, skyray is 115) and forcing a Ld check. After the missiles are spent, Skyray still provides 2 markerlights and a SMS. *credit LordBlades*

Runner ups -

broadsides - high yield missiles will simply force wounds but won't ignore cover or armor saves
Crisis suits dropping in with plasma at rapid fire range with at least 4ML (to get ignore cover and bs5) will kill bikes fairly well. *credit Vector Strike* added - drop in a 7 man suit bomb with commander farsight and split fire can do some good damage *credit A Town Called Malus*
If you can get the XV109 Y'vahra in range, it might do ok. 6' move + 6' torrent +6' flamer only gets up to 18' however so it's not as effective as I'd like to fully make the list but I'll add it in. experimental rules- phased pasma-flamer - single canister - torrent (this one is 6' only) and is str6, ap 3, heavy 1 or str 6 AP2 heavy 2 (gets hot). It's also got a 12' str 8, AP3 heavy 3 blind/haywire burst ionic discharge cannon. *credit Co'tor Shas*
The XV107 R’varna might be useful as well. It has two large blasts at 60", and will hit bikes twice at S7 for each model under the blast. Assuming 3-4 bikes under each blast, that could mean something like 16 hits a turn from each one. That would mean 4.4 dead bikes are turn as I make it out, not the best, but better than nothing. *credit Co'tor Shas*


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Necrons - Tessract vault (LoW)- lots of long range low AP, high str weapons in there with some ignores cover powers

Runner ups -
tomb blades - str 6, ignores cover but doesn't stop the armor save
night scythes - can get in range and decent number of high str shots but does not ignore armor or cover
Deepstriking destroyers with preferred enemy and AP3, but doesn't ignore cover *credit Drakmord*
Doomsday Ark - 72, high str/lowAP but doesn't ignore cover. only single large blast so not many wounds but can force jinks potentially. *credit Drakmord*
Oblisk - 24' str 7 guns heavy 5 and you might have some folks argue over the firing arcs but it can deep strike, is AV 14 all around and has decent volume of fire. It also has 18' circle around it of where a jetbike moves through will suffer a dangerous terrain test. *credit Ferros*

Conclave of the Burning One is a Necron formation in the Shield of Baal: Exterminatus book.

You pair two crypteks (which can take any wargear options / artifacts as normal) with a C'Tan Shard (Nightbringer, obviously). The three become one unit, cannot seperate, and no other ICs can join the unit for the game.

The crypteks get to use the C'Tan's toughness though when determining to wound rolls. (T7 normally, T8 if one of the crypteks takes a god shackle, a 10pt upgrade). The crypteks also give the C'Tan a point of FNP each (5+ when both are alive),

This also allows the unit to DS, since you can give one of the crypteks the Veil of Darkness, and the other one can take the Solar Staff, which makes everything else snap shoot at the unit once per game.

Of course, they still only move 6" once they land, but they should wipe out a squad of bikes the turn they paradrop in. *credit Eggzavier*

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Orks - can't think of any direct counters to bypass armor +cover but some runner ups

Runner ups - lootas - high str and range but doesn't ignore the cover or armor save. Shove in battlewagon to keep 'em alive *credit to Pipealley*
supashooter + waaagh on dakkajet has good volume of str 6 fire, not ignoring armor/jink however.
Supa-gatler on the stompas have 48', str7, AP3, and 2d6 shots so possibly can deliver the firepower if you roll well. Poor rolling means your gun stops shooting all game lol
flashgitz in a fast truk or other fast vehicle - 12' move + 24' snazzguns can make a suicide attack vs some bikes if you are desperate *credit Dakkafang Dreggrim*
Lobbas will dump enough fire on clustered bikes to just force enough wounds to stop the bikes along with able to stand strong with T7 and cover which will help vs some wraithcannons *credit Koooaei*
Ork Weirdboy spam may work if multiple CAD is allowed. Use Da Jump to get into range (assuming good deep strike) and use power vomit of str 7 AP2 flamer. It's got alot to be desired for but hey it's something. *credit JimonMars*

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Eldar -
Dark Reaper exarch with tempest launcher (36' str4, AP3, 2 small blasts) + perfect timing or reaper rangefinder upgrade to ignore jink, also the regular reaper launcher works too at str 5, ap3 with reaper rangefinder.
Sonic Lance on the Revenant Titan and Lynx tank (LoW) - super sized inferno weapon, 3+ wound, Ap2, hellstorm (12'move +16' hellstorm template. +18' torrent for sonic lances = enough range) credit AnomanderRake*

Runner ups -
Your own jetbikes with a farseer to twin link your own scatter lazers to just overwhelm the other jetbikes saves.
Wraithknight / helmock -distortion weapons - no saves on 6's on D table *credit Kilofix*

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DE -
Sonic Lance on the Revenant Titan (LoW) - super sized inferno weapon, 3+ wound, Ap2, hellstorm (12'move +16' hellstorm template. +18' torrent for sonic lances = enough range) credit AnomanderRake* (can be taken by primary dark eldar according esclation codex)

Jimsolo wrote:TGL's and the Archangel of Pain both require a Ld test, and cause a wound (with no cover or armor saves) for each point by which the test is failed. This is made much better by the ability of the Dark Eldar/Harlequins to stack negative modifiers out the wazoo. (Each Haemmy coven formation projects a stacking 12" -1, the Shadowseer can take a 12" -2 as well as applying a further -1 from Terrify, and any Codex DE HQ can take a 6" -2. The Shadowseer can also take Psychic Shriek, which is even more effective than the TGL or Archangel of Pain.

All of these units have access to Deep Strike, and the DE HQs can take a Webway Portal to negate scatter. You could theoretically drop a Raider in with four HQs aboard (provided that you are taking a Harlequin, DE, and Covens detachment) which can cause 3d6-one unit's Ld in wounds (no saves for bikes) in the psychic phase, followed by a different unit suffering a TGL hit (Ld test, 1 wound-unsavable for bikes-per point it is failed by), as well as every unit within range of the Archangel of Pain suffering the same (although THIS test must be taken with a further -2 due to the Archangel's special rules). The unit inside the Raider (a unit of Harlies works well, as would a unit of Grotesques, who could potentially add another -1 to the equation) is also still free to shoot, although the Shadowseer can use his own Hallucinogen Grenade Launcher to throw out an attack which causes a Pinning test if it even hits, and this can target a different unit than the two previously hit!

Furthermore, in the above example, units within 6" of any part of the Raider are at a -5 or -6 to Ld normally, those within 12" are at -3 or -4.

This is only one example. The Freakish Spectacle rule, Mask of Secrets, Archangel of Pain, and Armor of Misery play well with the Torment Grenade Launcher, Phantasm Grenade Launcher, Hallucinogen Grenade Launcher, as well as the Death Jester's Death is Not Enough! rule and the Shadowseer's guarantee-able Psychic Shriek and potential Terrify. These can all be mixed and matched to devastating effect against infantry (the TGL, PGL, and Archangel do not work against models with ATSKNF or Fearless, but Eldar don't have those normally) to devastating effect, and if allied with Codex: Eldar or a Corsairs army, the leadership-based tactics get even more gruesome.

(For reference, the Codex: Dark Eldar selections in the last paragraph are in Red, the Harlequins in Pink, and the Covens in Blue, with the selections that both DE forces can take in Purple.)

(Although I didn't list it in the example unit, the Death Jester pairs well in this grouping. Any unit he wounds must take a Morale test with a -2 penalty, and upon failure will flee in a direction of the Death Jester's choosing, strongly increasing the chances the bikes will flee off the board.)

*credit Jimsolo*

Runner ups -
Nothing super direct counter that I can think up but splinter cannons can give decent volume of fire from venoms
Disintegrator cannons can ignore armor and has decent volume but still allows cover save
Implosion missles also work at str 6 AP2 but 1 shot only. Also allows cover saves

Archon, phantasm GL, webway, 3 medusae and a venom with 2 cannons.
Unit deep strikes in without scatter.
Medusae disembark and toast a squad with 3 templates, S4 AP3 (ie, no cover or armor for bikes).
Archon fires his phantasm at another unit within 18" while the venom fires it's 12 poison shots at a 3rd unit. *credit Hawaiimatt*

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Tyranids -
Flying hive tyrants to get in range and fire with alot of Str 6 shots in kind - allows armor / cover however psychic scream can be effective


Runner ups -
Mawloc has str 6 ap2 ignore cover for a nice bite out of some bikes but somewhat harder to use repeatedly due to the lag in digging/emerging *credit rollawaythestone*
drop pod zoanthropes with neurothrope with spirit leech or psychic scream *credit rollawaythestone*

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CSM -
Heldrake - even with the nerfs to firing arc, the baleflamer is still one of the best wounds on 2+, AP3, and ignores cover torrent
*Chaos Rapiers with Attached Chaos Sorcerer for perfect Timing. 3 Str 10 AP 1 Large Blasts Ignores Cover from Cyclotrath Conversion Beamers, that wind up to str 10 at only 48" is monstrous. That and Typhon Heavy Siege tanks.* credit to GoliothOnline
Psychic shriek with daemon princes inclding Be'lakor *credit AnomanderRake*


Runner up -
Doom siren - if you can ever get that thing in range it's an AP3 flamer but only for noise marines and Lucius the eternal (I guess you can infiltrate him in somewhere)
Lord of Skulls (LoW) - gorestorm cannon - str 8 Ap3 hellstorm template but only 12' move + 16' template for 28' range so not full points. *credit KiloFix*
noise marine Blastmaster - single frequency is 48', str 8 AP3 and ignores cover *moved down due to single shot small blast being less likely to hit multiple bikes*
battle cannons on defilers or other units to just force jinks with AP3. This would include the plague hulk : the Nurgle Soul Grinder from FW and it is in IA13. It has a S6 rending battle cannon and a 3+ poison ap3 flamer *credit CrownAxe*
Chaos lord or sorc jump pack burning brand s4 ap3 torrent in a unit of raptors with a couple of flamers ds in and burn and if a sorc with telep psy shiek as well. Mark them as slaanesh for fnp banner and they could become a real pain to shift. - though they are kind of vulnerable to return fire next turn and have no precision deep strike, it's an option at the very least *credit Skullhammer*
Infernal Relic Predator in IA13 can take Ap3 autocannon and rending HB side sponsons to at least force jinks. *credit Camundongo*

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Chaos Daemons -
Psychic shriek with daemon princes inclding Be'lakor *credit AnomanderRake*
Greater brass scorpion - soulburner canon (str 6, AP2, large blast, ignores cover) *credit KiloFix*

Runner up -
deep striking herald of nurgle or daemon prince - essentially going for stream of corruption and or rancid visitation which is kind of crappy honestly vs T4, also plague wind can work too with AP2, 4+ to wound, but doesn't ignore cover.
Deep striking herald of slanesh/daemon prince/ masqe with Pavane (cascading ld- test, no armor or cover saves
Burning chariot of Tzeentch with pink fire of Tzeentch - str 5, AP3 torrent flamer. I'd rank this thing higher but it's too dependent on deep strike to keep up afterwards.
deep striking plague hulk - rancid vomit with AP3 template that wounds on a 3+ *credit KiloFix*
Mamon - Contagion spray - template, poison 2+, AP3) *credit KiloFix*
Tzeench has a S8 AP1 beam that cannot be jinked as it is not directly targeting apparently. Useful vs serpents as well *credit koooaei*

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I can't think up every system that is a direct or at least counters a bit in all the books and hoping that folks will have some ideas. I'll keep updating this thing as folks think of more things and we get more info. I kind of lumped all the IoM armies together as well to save space
I also did not include melee as the jetbikes as most can see from up top can get out of melee range of most things fairly easily even when shooting.

Appendix:

For those that don't know, IA2 has a back section that lets you buy specific upgrades for one vehicle per 1000 points. Think of them as a relic for vehicles.

Some of them are pretty powerful and some are more flavorful. These include:

ignore cover for any blast makers by this vehicle
preferred enemy orks, hatred orks, and if charged, attacking units reroll successful to hits
Monster hunter, also gives marines within 6' fearless
Once per game, gain skyfire, interceptor, tank hunters and night vision ( does it mean it can give itself interceptor on the enemy's turn? - not sure)
perferred enemy chaos space marine, and auto pass ruins dangerous terrain tests
Adamantium will
No scatter via deep strike
perferred enemy chaos space marine, and enemy warlords within 12' suffer -1 to ld
Perferred enemy (chaos Daemons), marines within 6' gain furious charge
Jink saves improved by 1 for storm eagle/varients. superheavy flyer gains 6+ jink
Marines gain fearless within 12'
Tank Hunters, ignore haywire on a 4+, and gains +1bs against things with daemonforge (i,e, heldrake)
It Will Not Die
+1 BS or +1 WS, if warlord is within 2'-the range of command trait is +6'. If destroyed, the vehicle = +1 victory point to the enemy
gain venerable rule but counts as ally of convenience to own detatchment or desperate ally to any allied detatchment
Reroll mysterious terrain/objective if desired if this vehicle discovers them

The various battle of keylek things are referencing the above list.

As an Eldar Unification player, I'm looking for Psychic Shriek/Terrify/Torment Launchers to do pretty well.

Place the Lootas in battlewagons to increase both survivability AND to be able to see the bikes. 15 Lootas can have problems all being able to see the same unit. An open-topped vehicle can fix this. Place on a Landing Pad for 4++ save against other Eldar Shooting.

They're 3+/4+ cover, T4? Am I missing something else?

Mavnas wrote:
They're 3+/4+ cover, T4? Am I missing something else?

Ld8, and can in the future buy a warlock (sgt sorta) upgrade that can have 4++ for just himself and a psy mastery 1. Don't think it ups their ld at all though, so still ld8

LD8 is fine. Relying on opponents to blow LD8 checks is a losing strategy.

 Jimsolo wrote:
As an Eldar Unification player, I'm looking for Psychic Shriek/Terrify/Torment Launchers to do pretty well.

what's a torment launcher do again?

I don't think the dakka flyrant is a good option. His shots only kill 3 bikes a turn, and he would probably be dead very very quickly.

Working under the assumption that the eldar player will not have left a complete blind spot in his list for AV13 and 14, I can't think of any realistic points-efficient counters in my own army. Pods will only work if the eldar player is mediocre or worse, skill-wise...

But Xenos players say pods are the overpowerd chez!

niv-mizzet wrote:
I don't think the dakka flyrant is a good option. His shots only kill 3 bikes a turn, and he would probably be dead very very quickly.

Working under the assumption that the eldar player will not have left a complete blind spot in his list for AV13 and 14, I can't think of any realistic points-efficient counters in my own army. Pods will only work if the eldar player is mediocre or worse, skill-wise...

this list isn't a points efficient counter list mind you. It's just a list of effective weapons for people to ponder about that are good at killing jetbikes. Don't worry so much about recommendations that depend on survival of said unit. The list is simply of good weapons platforms that kills jetbikes if it had a chance to fire at them.

" if it had a chance to fire at them."

Fair enough.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Now that I think about it, the BA turn 1 assault formation might do okay. But that's a tailored solution for sure.

Im just going to field Chaos Rapiers with Attached Chaos Sorcerer for perfect Timing. 3 Str 10 AP 1 Large Blasts Ignores Cover from Cyclotrath Conversion Beamers, that wind up to str 10 at only 48" is monstrous. That and Typhon Heavy Siege tanks.

Well in that case, the list is literally anything that can kill at least 3 T4 3+/4+Jink models to at least hope for a failed morale. That's a long list.

Cutting out the things that will never get a chance to do that, and the ones that are obviously inefficient at it, makes the list a lot more manageable.

niv-mizzet wrote:
Well in that case, the list is literally anything that can kill at least 3 T4 3+/4+Jink models to at least hope for a failed morale. That's a long list.

Cutting out the things that will never get a chance to do that, and the ones that are obviously inefficient at it, makes the list a lot more manageable.

It's actually not that long a list when you put your mind to it since you need Ap3, ignore cover, and 36'+ range or a way of getting it there or just some way of getting volume at that range would work too. Also, the inefficient ones are listed in the "runner up" section. The really optimized ones are not as common as it may seem actually. If you got something not on the list, please put it down and I'll update it to the top.

Anyone know what weapon the typhon seige tank has on it again?

It's actually not that long a list when you put your mind to it since you need Ap3, ignore cover,

No. Anything that can bury them in volume of fire works just fine without ignores cover.

For example, Pask in a Punisher will wipe out the squad if they don't jink or kill 4-5 if they do. A Punisher with just a regular tank commander (no rending, but BS4) will still probably kill 4. And the tank is AV14/13/11, so they'd have to get behind it to have a shot at killing it. Getting behind it while staying more than 30" away is harder.

Other possible observations, these guys will fold in melee pretty quickly to a number of units.

Consider a LR full of DCAs/Crusaders/Priests. They can't do anything to the LR. If they end their turn within 18" of it, it can move 6", disembark 6", and still have a reasonable charge distance. The overwatch is bad (2-3 dead crusaders), but each DCA kills 4 * 8/9 * 3/4 = 2 2/3 bikes assuming the priests can make one leadership test (or you allied in a SoB one with the book) If they fail that test, you only kill 1 7/9s. Assuming 6 DCAs, that's a dead squad. Worst case scenario is you now have to beat him in an opposed I test where you have +1 and the squad is basically done for.

That landraider has a decently large threat bubble to keep the bikers out as long as you can avoid getting it hit with ranged D weapons.

Something like necron wraiths or TWC can get reasonably close without being totally chewed up. Or at least close enough to force the bikes back from the rest of your army. Rememeber, if they have to flat out to get back in the action, they lost a turn, and they're not shooting on the turn they put themselves closer to you.

(Do they have hit and run?)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Scatterlasers are S6, 24" 5 shots?

I actually included several things with volume of fire but remember you have to deliver that volume at >36'. Scatter lasers are 36', str 6, AP6, 4 shots. The jetbikes have a threat range of 48'. The JSJ they do can keep them at 36+2d6 (avg of 6-7 so 42-43') range at the end of their turns. an Eldar jetbike moves 12' +36' flatout. They can move really fast. 48' movement every turn if not shooting. 18-19' while shooting. They do not have hit and run by default.

Pask punisher didn't make the list actually since the punisher cannon is only 24'.

Also the rules for making the list specifically said that we're not including melee counters. That's a different list for a different day. We have several threads already about "if I do this, then that thing then this thing happens threads through the rest of the threads here vs the next Eldar book' but I wanted to start isolating down specific weapon systems and did not want to put in a giant tactics discussion as that will be nearly limitless as you then can start debating between things like how hard things get hit back or sheer survivability of things and so forth. You can technically counter the 100+ str 6 shots with constantly recycling units formations like nids have and or chaos renegades from Vraks and then throw in some more discussions on range D weapons too but that I believe is outside the limited scope of this particular thread.

I'd rather start that kind of discussion in a separate tactical thread of which I think there are 2 on the first page right now. I'm doing a very narrow view focused look at just one aspect.

You missed Psychic Shriek in literally every book that can take it (most prominently Be'lakor and Daemon Princes), the Typhon and the Knight with the AP3 Hellstorm flamer for the Imperium, and the Sonic Lance (available on the Revenant and the Lynx) for the Eldar off the top of my head. I'd have more for you but Windows Explorer just died and I have to reboot now.

Well I'm building an Ork army and will be the only thing I have so I'll need to work with options from there. Looks like a combined firepower thing will be required. A full squad of Lootas and a Dakkajet with flyboss and the xtra pair of twin linked supa shootas will bring lots of dice to thin the herd. Considering adding a couple Traktor kannons to the big gun batteries to deal with the more powerful models.

ProwlerPC wrote:
A full squad of Lootas and a Dakkajet with flyboss and the xtra pair of twin linked supa shootas will bring lots of dice to thing the herd. Considering adding a couple Traktor kannons to the big gun batteries to deal with the more powerful models.

Not enough Lootas. I have a regular opponent who runs thirty rain or shine at any points level because they effectively counter so many things.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
You missed Psychic Shriek in literally every book that can take it (most prominently Be'lakor and Daemon Princes), the Typhon and the Knight with the AP3 Hellstorm flamer for the Imperium, and the Sonic Lance (available on the Revenant and the Lynx) for the Eldar off the top of my head. I'd have more for you but Windows Explorer just died and I have to reboot now.

Thanks for those, added to the list under runner ups sections as the hellstorm templates are only 16' and +12' movement only gives them a 28' threat window. What's a Typhon btw? I'm not familiar with that.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Not enough Lootas. I have a regular opponent who runs thirty rain or shine at any points level because they effectively counter so many things.

Yeah this was a concern of mine when I first began reading of the possibility of a bike horde. If I roll Hvy1 for my Lootas it'll only be 15 shots which is why I think a Dakkajet with full kit and probably 2 Traktors since the previous two options won't ignore the armour of the bikes adding in a bit more reliability mixed in with the mass of dice. Still even with this setup you are probably right if I again get a bad roll for how many shots the Lootas will unleash that turn. But.... It would be fun to play out. I want a pair of Traktor Kannons available as an option anyways. Orks always had an issue before with ranged tank killing ability, this makes high armoured flyers dreadful. Those Traktor Kannons not only look cool but seem pretty effective on paper (at least it doesn't toss in another layer of randomness on the mtn of layers already)

Relic Predators with the Flamestorm Cannon if you have a way of getting them up close, Land Raider Redeemers because the scatbikes can't actually hurt them, Loyalist or Chaos Marines both have the Typhon, if you have the Reserves interaction to pull it off a Hell Blade is six autocannons for a hundred and fifteen points, a Blastmaster isn't really optimal since it's so expensive and a small blast is only going to hit one bike most of the time but it is S8/AP3 Ignores Cover, a Brass Scorpion is a solid tool since it's got Flamestorm cannons, an Ignores Cover demolisher cannon, ten S6/AP3 shots, the speed to get upfield with them (12" move and 3d6" charge), and it's impervious to scatbikes from the front and sides (you have an Invul and Cursed Earth to fight other things) but it has to be properly used and supported. Any unit with the Artillery type has the range to threaten the bikes and it's T7 against shooting so they have a hard time removing it, Kriegers can give Ignores Cover to a S6 Large Blast with Shred or an Earthshaker carriage.

A Plague Hulk can Deep Strike and lay down a S5/AP3 template and a S6/AP3 Large Blast while 13/13/11 and an Invul keeps it alive, Hellchickens are flying around with an AP3 torrent flamer, the humble Russ can toss AP3 Large Blasts downrange to keep the bikes Jinking, the Thunderer is a 140pt squadronable 14-13-10 Vindicator, Bane Wolves have a Poisoned 2+ AP2 torrent weapon if you can keep them alive...

Lots of tools in lots of books.

Oh yeah, I forgot about that.......T7 grots standing in front of anti-air batteries.

 sudojoe wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
You missed Psychic Shriek in literally every book that can take it (most prominently Be'lakor and Daemon Princes), the Typhon and the Knight with the AP3 Hellstorm flamer for the Imperium, and the Sonic Lance (available on the Revenant and the Lynx) for the Eldar off the top of my head. I'd have more for you but Windows Explorer just died and I have to reboot now.

Thanks for those, added to the list under runner ups sections as the hellstorm templates are only 16' and +12' movement only gives them a 28' threat window. What's a Typhon btw? I'm not familiar with that.

Super-heavy oversized Vindicator. Not sure how much of the rules I'm allowed to be specific about but it's got Land Raider AV, six hull points, a 7" blast Demolisher cannon with Ignores Cover that's 48" range if it doesn't move, it's under four hundred points, and Chaos and Loyalist Space Marines can both get them so that's every Legacy of Ruin/Legacy of Glory to make it funnier.

Speaking of Legacies of Ruin/Legacies of Glory you can buy Battle of Keylek for Ignores Cover on all blasts on a Scorpius, that might be a reasonable counter. Hide it way back out of LOS and drop d3+1 S8/AP3 ignores cover barrage small blasts out a turn.


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I'm thinking the funniest Legacies of Ruin/Glory for the Typhon would be Maelstrom Raider for Outflank, Death of Kasyr Lutien to let any Malefic Daemonology casts within 12" of the tank reroll one die for every hull point it has left (go summoning!), or War of Murder (Fearless bubble and Monster Hunter).

Did we already include:

+ Knight Acheron
+ Lord of Skulls
+ Malcador Infernus

All high Str AP3 Hellstorm.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Relic Predators with the Flamestorm Cannon if you have a way of getting them up close, Land Raider Redeemers because the scatbikes can't actually hurt them, Loyalist or Chaos Marines both have the Typhon, if you have the Reserves interaction to pull it off a Hell Blade is six autocannons for a hundred and fifteen points, a Blastmaster isn't really optimal since it's so expensive and a small blast is only going to hit one bike most of the time but it is S8/AP3 Ignores Cover, a Brass Scorpion is a solid tool since it's got Flamestorm cannons, an Ignores Cover demolisher cannon, ten S6/AP3 shots, the speed to get upfield with them (12" move and 3d6" charge), and it's impervious to scatbikes from the front and sides (you have an Invul and Cursed Earth to fight other things) but it has to be properly used and supported. Any unit with the Artillery type has the range to threaten the bikes and it's T7 against shooting so they have a hard time removing it, Kriegers can give Ignores Cover to a S6 Large Blast with Shred or an Earthshaker carriage.

A Plague Hulk can Deep Strike and lay down a S5/AP3 template and a S6/AP3 Large Blast while 13/13/11 and an Invul keeps it alive, Hellchickens are flying around with an AP3 torrent flamer, the humble Russ can toss AP3 Large Blasts downrange to keep the bikes Jinking, the Thunderer is a 140pt squadronable 14-13-10 Vindicator, Bane Wolves have a Poisoned 2+ AP2 torrent weapon if you can keep them alive...

Lots of tools in lots of books.

most of those are already on the list but I did add in anything I missed with credit to you. I especially like the krieg one that I forgot about. Several suggestions I already thought about like the banewolf for example but the chem cannon isn't actually a torrent (the other flamer template however is a torrent but not AP3) and doesn't meet the criteria for a superior weapon system since it's too short ranged. Thunderer is also too short ranged to always be effective so I didn't include it. The battle cannon already listed above.

While folks keep saying lots of tools, You've listed most of the same things I thought of at first glance then I had nothing left lol. I thought it was a much larger myself but the above is what I'm thinking is the bulk of things that are fairly good at that kind of job. I'll move the blast master down a bit.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
You missed Psychic Shriek in literally every book that can take it (most prominently Be'lakor and Daemon Princes), the Typhon and the Knight with the AP3 Hellstorm flamer for the Imperium, and the Sonic Lance (available on the Revenant and the Lynx) for the Eldar off the top of my head. I'd have more for you but Windows Explorer just died and I have to reboot now.

Hey, now I can bring the knight and not feel like TFG.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also for Space Wolves, a Rune Priest with plasma pistol and the Helm that gives his shooting attacks ignores cover (works on witchfire powers) would be nice to add to a pod. Not sure which discipline gives you the most firepower, but I'd lean Biomancy since the primaris is 4 shots at AP2.

 KiloFiX wrote:
Did we already include:

+ Knight Acheron
+ Lord of Skulls
+ Malcador Infernus

All high Str AP3 Hellstorm.

Added to the list and credited. The lord of skulls didn't get full points as it is not actually a torrent hellstorm template so it's range is limited to 12' move + 16' template = 28' threat window

Btw, what's a plague hulk? I'm not sure where to find the stats for that one.
Also still wondering what a torment launcher does.

I love the ideas so far btw. Keep'em comming folks.

What about:

+ Necron Monoliths (Gravity Pulse - not ideal, but huge diameter)

+ IG LasCannon or Missile Squads with Ignores Cover Orders
+ Eldar Wraithguard with D-Scythes (Template D-Weapon)
+ Flamestorm Cannons on Land Raiders / Relic Preds (Template S6 AP3)

+ Daemons - Plague Psychic - Rancid Visitations (Nova T-test, no Armor or Cover Saves)
+ Daemons - Excess Psychic - Pavane (Cascading Ld-test, no Armor or Cover Saves)
+ Daemons - Plague Psychic - Choir (Nova Ld-test, no Armor or Cover Saves)

+ Daemons - Masque - Dance of Death
+ IA Daemons - Mamon - Contagion Spray (Template, Poison 2+, AP3)
+ IA Daemons - Plague Hulk - Rancid Vomit (Template, Poison 3+, AP3)
+ IA Daemons - Greater Brass Scorpion - Soulburner Cannon (S6 AP2 Large Blast, Ignores Cover)


+ Aquila Strongpoints
+ Eldar Wraithknight / Hemlock D-Weapons (6 on D-Table allows no saves)
+ Aquila Strongpoints (6 on D-Table)
+ Any Super Heavy Stomp (6 on Stomp-Table)

Typhon Heavy Siege Tank has the Dreadhammer str 10 AP 1 Massive Blast Ignores Cover. I wont list the range nor point values, but yeah, you'll want one