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so, unlike the last release (Eldar) where some just wanted to outright ban them from events (lol) how about discussing your army counters to this OP formation?
Can we assume full sized dev sqds/ass sqds? Loadouts?

so what can you do?

Interceptor, reserve manipulation, having units also arrive on first turn and try to go second (not sure when the Skyhammer player declares what turn they arrive), durability such as improving cover saves, having lots of chaffe, go first and get psychic buffs up (Invis, Shrouding for example).

It is hard to come up with specifics for every army and every possibility, but those are some general ideas.

For my Eldar, Invisibility and Shrouding are key along for units starting on the board if I am going first. An Autarch is nearly an auto take in my lists for reserve manipulation as I am trying to get the counter punch as my opponent likely has @half his army wrapped up in this formation.

I don't think that we can assume full-size Devastator squads. Assault Squads will probably be full-size though. Depending on the number of upgrades, this formation is hardly cheap. Not that it makes it any less overpowered.

As I posted in the thread in General Discussion before it was locked, this formation has only two real weaknesses:

1. Deep Strike unreliability. The assault squads still scatter, which means a potential mishap and/or moving out of charge range. The drop pods for the Devastators also count towards the Drop Pod Assualt rule, meaning it can play havoc with any other podded squads.

2. Ye olde MSU. The dev squads can only shoot at two units, and depending on their size the assault squads can only charge two units. With enough units spread across the table, only a portion of the army can be affected by the formation. Null deployment shenanigans also should work well.

That's the problem with this formation: you can't directly counter it (unless you're Tau/Coteaz). It simply kills whatever it comes into contact with; it's a deathstar that can be in multiple places at the same time. Fortunately, if their ruling on the Blood Angels formation is anything to go by, the ITC will say NOPE to assaulting after Deep-Striking. That would go a long way in toning the formation down; the lack of overwatch for passing 3d6 leadership isn't as big a deal, and the assault squads have to eat a turn of fire.

I say just use the gladius and food the board with free razorhbacks and drop pods. What's that? You killed 3 first turn how about 7 more?

MSU won't work as they can just combat squad on deployment and MSU your MSU. Having 4-8 units severly damaged in one turn even hurts MSU. Also you won't have enough left in a unit to take on the marines after eating overwatch.

Take the wall of martyrs defense line. Take 3 bunkers each with an escape hatch. Place escape hatches 12" away. If the opponent pops the bunkers, you can either exit from the bunker or from the escape hatch. Which ever doesn't put you in danger of the assault squads.

This does however eat up 360pts of non-offensive terrain that won't make its points back, just to counter it.

I guess I should have been clearer, I meant what your particular army would plan to do, not hypothetical counters for all armies in general. Let's say you are going to a small event and know one of the players is bringing this formation but you also have other players in the event. What are you going to take that will not only counter this but also have it's utilities vs other armies?

Wall of Martyrs is a good answer. Bunkers/buildings are immune to grav, which is what I'm betting at least half of the devs would show up with. Combined with some reserve roll help, you might be able to organize a solid counter strike after the marines are on the ground.

How would the assault squads fair against tougher units? To me, the weak link in the formation is units that the assault squads cannot take out.

my harelquins are not too concerned with the assault sqds or grav weapons, but bolter/bolt pistol shots will eat through them. If assaulted, I'll strike first and should remove a good number before they strike. Then hit and run, no tarpit, my turn. Of course, this formation would not be the only thing my harlies face Turn 1.

I'm actually glad SM got a top tier codex, it should make the hostility toward Eldar/crons less intense. Still feel for all those codexes before them, including my DE, but I will still collect a wych cult.

Guard/Skitarii/counts as navy armsmen:

Massive blob squads going to ground behind an aegis with a commissar or inquisitor mitigates the grav/pinning nastiness. Not sure how to deal with the assault marines in this case; allied combat characters/units in the form of marines or inquisitors might be ok.

The assault squads are scary and turn 1 DS then assault is making me think mech starting in vehicles is a passable solution. They charge, pop the vehicle, then the occupants run away and flame/demo charge/plasma the assaulting marines. This is dicey since the marines can combat squad and pop 4 transports in a turn (if they only take one of these...) and the devs have a decent shot at opening up transports depending on their equipment.

Skitarii/scion/IG veteran airforce with T1 rangers/platoon/scions in comms bunkers is another potential route. 9 vendettas with skitarii/scions in them will wreck house if the points can be cajoled into working and should be able to keep grav devs and assault marines honest.

I'm actually excited about this development. Marines falling out of the sky and wrecking house is where it's at! Maelstrom may help out too; forcing combat squad-ing and making the assault marines choose between objective grabbing and charging things.

Any news on ObSec? If not, this is a lot of points tied up in units that can be denied pretty easily.

 TheNewBlood wrote:
Fortunately, if their ruling on the Blood Angels formation is anything to go by, the ITC will say NOPE to assaulting after Deep-Striking. That would go a long way in toning the formation down; the lack of overwatch for passing 3d6 leadership isn't as big a deal, and the assault squads have to eat a turn of fire.

I do not believe the ITC ruling on the Angel's Spearhead Formation will set a precedent for the Skyhammer, as the rules/mechanics that allow for the assault after deepstrike are not the same.

The ITC ruling (on the Angel's Spearhead formation) makes it impossible for a 1st turn deep strike because the Locator Beacons have to be on the table for a turn in order to utilize the Augur Triangulation special rule. A 2nd turn assault after a 2nd turn deep strike is still possible as long as the Angel's Spearhead formation arrived 1st turn.

The Skyhammer formation just says in plain english that the Assault squads can assault the turn they deep strike. Unsure how or why they'd rule against it, unless they just want to see people keep their assault marines on the shelves, buried in a layer of dust.

It's a tough formation but it's still a lot of points.
You can't take this formation twice in most tournaments.
And assault Squads still scatter badly.
I also find devastators and assault Squads usually have different targets.
This is by far the best formation in this codex imho and will cause a lot of damage but eat up a good chunk of points too. However I fully expect this to be the Most popular formation in tournaments. I hope tournaments start tracking formations just so we can analyze this data.

The gladius formation takes up most or all of an 1850 list when you give them enough weapons to do anything and still are hard countered by mid str ap3 spam. Large blast ap3 pie plates would have fun against a gladius. Also the gladius is not legal in any tournament that doesn't allow multiple of the same formation which is most in the U.S.

I was initially on the "this formation rules them all" train, but after some thought it's just "really good". Units in cover, or with good cover saves, will withstand the devastators' fire. Assault squads, while decent, are not the most bomb-diggity thing in the world either. Best counters are:

1. Sit in cover, behind an ADL, or in a building/bunker. The ADL and ruins are my personal recommendations.

2. All-drop pod armies, force you to go first, beat you to the alpha strike. And yes I know the opponent can choose to come in second, but by then much of the damage has been done.

3. MSU armies. Use your 300 pts of Grav Devs to kill my 70 pt unit. Dang.

4. Hordes. An Ork or Tyranid Horde cares not for your silly Grav, and welcomes you into assault.

Dunno about Tyranids, but Orks will get shredded en masse by flamers and assault marines. Without the charge we're little better than guardsmen.

Primary Ork counter seems to be spam MSU Gretchin all over the place as a buffer. No point going for large squads as they can handle maybe 1 Assault Marine in CC no matter how many you have, the rest are just sweep fodder.

No interceptor and gak here nosiree

Doing the same thing as before. Not playing it. If I play it in a tournament, I guess I stick coteaz with a unit in ruins and hope for the best.

 Dakkamite wrote:
Dunno about Tyranids, but Orks will get shredded en masse by flamers and assault marines. Without the charge we're little better than guardsmen.

Primary Ork counter seems to be spam MSU Gretchin all over the place as a buffer. No point going for large squads as they can handle maybe 1 Assault Marine in CC no matter how many you have, the rest are just sweep fodder.

No interceptor and gak here nosiree

That'd be a pretty ballsy DS to be in flamer range. Green Tide would absolutely love for this formation to come down and assault it. Turn one, kill all the assault marines who were foolish enough to charge the Tide. Consolidate toward the Devastators. Turn 2, charge the Devastators and kill them as well.

8 grav cannons against ork boyz - 40 x 8/9 x 11/36 = 10.86
12 bolters - 24 x 8/9 x 1/2 = 10.67
2 stormbolters - 4 x 2/3 x 1/2 = 1.33
20 bolt pistols - 20 x 2/3 x 1/2 = 6.67
20 HoW - 1/2 x 5/6 = 8.33
60 Ccw attacks - 3/4 x 3/4 x 5/6 = 28.13

65.99 dead orks from the tide on average. And that is one of the few targets they are supposedly 'poor' against.
Got enough orks left to kill those pesky 20 marines? If so you just killed 20 assault marines in return. Even if you didn't lose a single nob or spec weapons trooper because they were all at the back, the formation still almost killed double their (the ASMs) points. And if you did kill them all - you now have 5/10 bolter marines blocking your way to the grav cannons.

 bullyboy wrote:
my harelquins are not too concerned with the assault sqds or grav weapons, but bolter/bolt pistol shots will eat through them. If assaulted, I'll strike first and should remove a good number before they strike. Then hit and run, no tarpit, my turn. Of course, this formation would not be the only thing my harlies face Turn 1.

I'm actually glad SM got a top tier codex, it should make the hostility toward Eldar/crons less intense. Still feel for all those codexes before them, including my DE, but I will still collect a wych cult.

Grav weapons are concussive. I wouldn't count on striking first.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Poly Ranger wrote:
8 grav cannons against ork boyz - 40 x 8/9 x 11/36 = 10.86
12 bolters - 24 x 8/9 x 1/2 = 10.67
2 stormbolters - 4 x 2/3 x 1/2 = 1.33
20 bolt pistols - 20 x 2/3 x 1/2 = 6.67
20 HoW - 1/2 x 5/6 = 8.33
60 Ccw attacks - 3/4 x 3/4 x 5/6 = 28.13

65.99 dead orks from the tide on average. And that is one of the few targets they are supposedly 'poor' against.
Got enough orks left to kill those pesky 20 marines? If so you just killed 20 assault marines in return. Even if you didn't lose a single nob or spec weapons trooper because they were all at the back, the formation still almost killed double their (the ASMs) points. And if you did kill them all - you now have 5/10 bolter marines blocking your way to the grav cannons.

You're assuming the assault marines can both shoot the 6 closest orcs to death and also get the charge off? To pull that one off they'd have had to deep strike pretty close and not scatter.

I think the best option for orks is to deploy as spread out as possible meaning that if the enemy takes a chunk out of their force, it also makes it hard to charge, etc. At max spread it takes 12 infantry models to fill a square foot of deployment zone. Considering you can leave gaps too small for a drop pod to fall into or a bunch of guys to drop into without mishapping, any army with 50+ models should be able to deny their entire deployment zone to the enemy, forcing them to only be able to charge whatever you put in front. And you'll only get shot from the front, which means that if you put an Aegis line across the front of your zone, anyone there can GtG for 2+ cover. This means the devs will likely drop near the part of your zone not covered by the defense line.

Mavnas wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:
my harelquins are not too concerned with the assault sqds or grav weapons, but bolter/bolt pistol shots will eat through them. If assaulted, I'll strike first and should remove a good number before they strike. Then hit and run, no tarpit, my turn. Of course, this formation would not be the only thing my harlies face Turn 1.

I'm actually glad SM got a top tier codex, it should make the hostility toward Eldar/crons less intense. Still feel for all those codexes before them, including my DE, but I will still collect a wych cult.

Grav weapons are concussive. I wouldn't count on striking first.

I wouldn't expect the grav weapons to target my harlies....either the wraith units or harlie vehicles/bikes.

So actually, based on this:

I'm thinking a Stormlord, bubblewrapped by conscripts hiding behind an ADL would be one possible answer.

The devs wouldn't get into melta range. Your tank would fire off 30 S6AP3 shots the turn after they land split across two squads. Anyone important would be inside the tank.

Your platoon could actually be split into 10 man squads lined up one in front of the other, making it hard to multi-charge them and increasing the likelyhood that the assault squads won't be engaged when it's time to shoot them. (Actually, there's a relic that lets you choose whether to pass/fail morale... so yeah!)

Now the only thing is you have to get your tank some sort of save. 5+ for intervening models should do (Do you get a 4+ cover if he shoot across the ADL). Otherwise your opponent might get lucky with his 40 grav shots.

My crons like deathmarks in 5 man squads they drop in i drop in and shoot them first with rapid fire precision shot sniper rifles that wound on 2's, there extreamly good at reducing podded troops out put. If in a duricon i coukd take upto 9 units of these.( not that i own that many myself .ive got 18.)

 bullyboy wrote:

Mavnas wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:
my harelquins are not too concerned with the assault sqds or grav weapons, but bolter/bolt pistol shots will eat through them. If assaulted, I'll strike first and should remove a good number before they strike. Then hit and run, no tarpit, my turn. Of course, this formation would not be the only thing my harlies face Turn 1.

I'm actually glad SM got a top tier codex, it should make the hostility toward Eldar/crons less intense. Still feel for all those codexes before them, including my DE, but I will still collect a wych cult.

Grav weapons are concussive. I wouldn't count on striking first.

I wouldn't expect the grav weapons to target my harlies....either the wraith units or harlie vehicles/bikes.

Also since for the most part any model concussed by the grav weapons would also be dead I think you can still reliably count on going first.

 Voidwraith wrote:
I do not believe the ITC ruling on the Angel's Spearhead Formation will set a precedent for the Skyhammer, as the rules/mechanics that allow for the assault after deepstrike are not the same.

The ITC ruling (on the Angel's Spearhead formation) makes it impossible for a 1st turn deep strike because the Locator Beacons have to be on the table for a turn in order to utilize the Augur Triangulation special rule. A 2nd turn assault after a 2nd turn deep strike is still possible as long as the Angel's Spearhead formation arrived 1st turn.

The Skyhammer formation just says in plain english that the Assault squads can assault the turn they deep strike. Unsure how or why they'd rule against it, unless they just want to see people keep their assault marines on the shelves, buried in a layer of dust.

Not to derail the thread too much but that is incorrect. You don't use the Locator Beacons themselves. The rule is only concerned with the position of the Tactical Sergeants. They ruled the way they did expressly because they said it was a combination of their interpretation of RAI and that being charged first turn from deep strike isn't fun and it might turn new tournament goers away.

Any buffed units that are great at surviving alpha strikes are still good. Invisible and shrouded centstars or other Death Stars with good invuln saves, 2++ re-roll screamer stars. FMCs spams are still decent, even if they have to jink.

 SonsofVulkan wrote:
Any buffed units that are great at surviving alpha strikes are still good. Invisible and shrouded centstars or other Death Stars with good invuln saves, 2++ re-roll screamer stars. FMCs spams are still decent, even if they have to jink.

Some of those things crumble if you go 2nd and he hits you before you invis.

Mavnas wrote:

 SonsofVulkan wrote:
Any buffed units that are great at surviving alpha strikes are still good. Invisible and shrouded centstars or other Death Stars with good invuln saves, 2++ re-roll screamer stars. FMCs spams are still decent, even if they have to jink.

Some of those things crumble if you go 2nd and he hits you before you invis.

If I go 2nd, I just null-deploy except the dronestar in cover... T5, shroud and FNP is pretty good. Grav can't do much against daemons anyway. Now if AM somehow lands within assault range without mishapping, then they might do some damage against dronestars.

 SonsofVulkan wrote:

Mavnas wrote:

 SonsofVulkan wrote:
Any buffed units that are great at surviving alpha strikes are still good. Invisible and shrouded centstars or other Death Stars with good invuln saves, 2++ re-roll screamer stars. FMCs spams are still decent, even if they have to jink.

Some of those things crumble if you go 2nd and he hits you before you invis.

If I go 2nd, I just null-deploy except the dronestar in cover... T5, shroud and FNP is pretty good. Grav can't do much against daemons anyway. Now if AM somehow lands within assault range without mishapping, then they might do some damage against dronestars.

Allied Sang Priest with Angel's Wing.

 pretre wrote:

 SonsofVulkan wrote:

Mavnas wrote:

 SonsofVulkan wrote:
Any buffed units that are great at surviving alpha strikes are still good. Invisible and shrouded centstars or other Death Stars with good invuln saves, 2++ re-roll screamer stars. FMCs spams are still decent, even if they have to jink.

Some of those things crumble if you go 2nd and he hits you before you invis.

If I go 2nd, I just null-deploy except the dronestar in cover... T5, shroud and FNP is pretty good. Grav can't do much against daemons anyway. Now if AM somehow lands within assault range without mishapping, then they might do some damage against dronestars.

Allied Sang Priest with Angel's Wing.

Then they can't charge :(

Not touching that debate with a ten foot pole.

Dont you need s copy of the formation rules though? All sold out on the website.

If someone expects me to pay for that formation in order to use it they can go to Hell.