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or was Horus the only primarch that could of started this huge wide scale civil war

or would another primarch of been able to do what horus did to the same or even greater effect

LightKing wrote:
or was Horus the only primarch that could of started this huge wide scale civil war

or would another primarch of been able to do what horus did to the same or even greater effect

Either Sanguinius or Guilliman, but both are Mary Sue incorruptible.

Rogal Dorn picks up the slack.

Check it out over here.

The Heresy would have occurred regardless of the corruption of the Primarchs with greater influence, as Lorgar was actively trying to corrupt the Legions. The Emperor's Children would have fallen regardless of Horus's fall, as would the World Eaters, Iron Warriors, Night Lords, and the Word Bearers. However, without Horus there to sway the Death Guard, the Alpha Legion, and the Thousand Sons, the Heresy would have been far less devastating than it was in the official fluff.

 dusara217 wrote:
The Heresy would have occurred regardless of the corruption of the Primarchs with greater influence, as Lorgar was actively trying to corrupt the Legions. The Emperor's Children would have fallen regardless of Horus's fall, as would the World Eaters, Iron Warriors, Night Lords, and the Word Bearers. However, without Horus there to sway the Death Guard, the Alpha Legion, and the Thousand Sons, the Heresy would have been far less devastating than it was in the official fluff.

Horus had nothing to do with the Alpha legion, they only seceded because they knew they were going to come off worse had they stayed.

The Word Bearers were the first corrupted legion so even if Horus never turned there still would have been traitors. Likely the knight Lord's, the world eaters, and the emperor's children would have turned with the word bearers over time. However, without Horus there is no unifying force, no true leader so there likely wouldn't be the galaxy ending consequences.

 Jimsolo wrote:
Rogal Dorn picks up the slack.

Check it out over here.

Lol. The Lion and DA are still loyal, even in the alternate reality.
Edit: wait I was totally wrong

In response to OP, yeah Angron, Lorgar, Purtabo, and Curze were grade-A crazy before Chaos got their mitts in. (although technically they had been involved since birth)
I think Fulgrim was more pulled by Horus than people give him credit for though.
I think he would have willed himself to shake off the chaotic forces knowing that neither Ferrus Manus or Horus would betray the Emperor.

rowboatjellyfanxiii wrote:

 dusara217 wrote:
The Heresy would have occurred regardless of the corruption of the Primarchs with greater influence, as Lorgar was actively trying to corrupt the Legions. The Emperor's Children would have fallen regardless of Horus's fall, as would the World Eaters, Iron Warriors, Night Lords, and the Word Bearers. However, without Horus there to sway the Death Guard, the Alpha Legion, and the Thousand Sons, the Heresy would have been far less devastating than it was in the official fluff.

Horus had nothing to do with the Alpha legion, they only seceded because they knew they were going to come off worse had they stayed.

It was Horus's rebellion that was used to convince the Alpha Legion to rebel (see: Legion). Therefore, had Horus not fallen, the Alpha Legion would not have fallen.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mantorok wrote:

I think he would have willed himself to shake off the chaotic forces knowing that neither Ferrus Manus or Horus would betray the Emperor.

He didn't even know that it was Chaos. e thought it was his own conscience speaking to him, and I highly doubt that a Greater Daemon like that would have shown its hand as quickly as it did had Horus not cast his lot in with Chaos.

Heresy was inevitable, the Chaos Gods just needed to find their pawns. That being said it is commonly accepted that Guilliman, Manus, Dorn, Russ, and Sanguinius were the "incorruptible" Primarchs. The loyalists most likely to betray were Khan and the Lion

 Harriticus wrote:
Heresy was inevitable, the Chaos Gods just needed to find their pawns. That being said it is commonly accepted that Guilliman, Manus, Dorn, Russ, and Sanguinius were the "incorruptible" Primarchs. The loyalists most likely to betray were Khan and the Lion

I don't think that's commonly accepted at all, given that there's no consensus whatsoever on just about anything related to the Heresy.

No other Primarch had the charisma to pull the others together and unite them against the Imperium. Maybe Sanguinius could have, but hawk boy was by far the most incorruptible.

The only other coup I could see working would be Guilliman taking control after the Horus Heresy by refusing to step down as Lord Commander. Especially if Dorn had kicked it at the Iron Cage, as the remaining Primarchs and their legions at that point were either to weak to stand up to the Ultramarines or had supported his vision for the Imperium.

Horus is the linchpin of the Heresy and no other Primarch would have been able to unite his brothers like he did. If Horus would've stayed loyal I believe that Angron, Fulgrim, Mortarion and Magnus would still have fallen as their fates seem to have been destined since the scattering of their pods. Lorgar would also have been corrupted. Alpharius is more difficult. It all depends on if the Cabal had seen some form of great war like the Horus Heresy. If Alpharius had not been shown anything in the Acuity then there would be no reason for them to turn. Perturabo is also a difficult one as Olympia had been razed by the Iron Warriors. If Horus had said to Perturabo that the Emperor would never forgive him then it is likely that they would go rogue like the Night Lords had.

 Harriticus wrote:
Heresy was inevitable, the Chaos Gods just needed to find their pawns. That being said it is commonly accepted that Guilliman, Manus, Dorn, Russ, and Sanguinius were the "incorruptible" Primarchs. The loyalists most likely to betray were Khan and the Lion

They're actually both ultra-loyal in the fluff.

Whereas the others are loyal to the Emperor and the Imperium, meaning doubts about the former's competence to rule the latter could create splits, as it did the others, Khan and the Lion are shown to be loyal to a fault to the Emperor himself solely, whatever his flaws. Khan, in a kind of tribal sense, and the Lion in a knightly vassal sense. Both see themselves as his weapons to use as he sees fit. Both have the same form of loyalty as Russ has.

Gulliman and Dorn are the opposite. Both are more Empire builders, and though fanatically loyal to the Emperor, are more loyal to the concept of his vision than him as an individual. If someone managed to make them believe the Emperor was detrimental to that vision, then it could cause cracks.

I see no reason for Manus to be uncorruptible in different circumsances. Sure, he stayed loyal, but Chaos didn't really try with him either. His reliance on technology, and that of his legion, is enough of a wild-card element to exploit, possibly in the same way as Magnus. Brand him as a Heretek and set another legion on him, and what then? Sanguinarius is of course uncorruptible though, but more due to his character than anything. Chaos simply can't touch him. Vulkan is likely the same, as his ultimate loyalty is to the lives of others, and Chaos was racking up a large body count from the start.

The last one, Corax, doesn't strike me as particularly unocorruptible. He has no reason to rebel, but he's not portrayed as having plot-armour like Sanguinarius either. He could easily have been targeted by Chaos in his youth, then given over to resentment like some of the others, or taken the Alpha Legion route.

I don't think any of the loyalist primarchs had any liklihood to betray the Emperor, but I think Gulliman and Dorn would have had the easiest motivations to twist and exploit, and Manus and Corax have nothing about them specifically that makes their loyalty unbreakable, unlike the others.

None of them were incorruptible, they all could have fallen in some way or another. If the Khan and the Lion were similar to Russ, then that is their weakness. Russ was manipulated into doing what Chaos wanted, and they likely could have manipulated him into joining Chaos had they wanted to. Even Sanguinius was almost turned, and he wasn't even truly aware that it almost happened.

I think Corax would rather go down the Night Lords route rather than join Chaos, although Chaos would probably use his hatred of tyrants to at least turn him against the Emperor. But true corruption, nah.

Manus is indeed something of a wild-card; on the one hand, he's too stubborn to give in to corruption, but on the other hand, if he and his Legion had gone too far with their reliance on technology, it could have opened up a nasty can of worms.

 Ezra Tyrius wrote:
I think Corax would rather go down the Night Lords route rather than join Chaos, although Chaos would probably use his hatred of tyrants to at least turn him against the Emperor. But true corruption, nah.

Manus is indeed something of a wild-card; on the one hand, he's too stubborn to give in to corruption, but on the other hand, if he and his Legion had gone too far with their reliance on technology, it could have opened up a nasty can of worms.

Its not necessarily a matter of willingly giving in to corruption though, that's why I think Chaos could have corrupted any of the primarchs had they wanted to. Sanguinius was willing to sacrifice himself to save his legion, believing that his sacrifice would mean his death. However when another Blood Angel takes his place we see that what would have happened was that he would have been possessed by a daemon. We were only a few steps away from a Chaos Sanguinius, the primarch that many fans cite as the most incorruptible.

Worth noting that Fulgrim was not originally corrupted by Horus.

Good point about it not always being voluntary; if regular humans can be forced to convert, so could Primarchs, indeed

Two things keep bugging me though;

A. Doesn't the fact that the Chaos gods had to trick Sanguinius into sacrificing himself for his Legion in order to corrupt him more or less prove that he really was incorruptible by any other means? Seems to me like they tried to corrupt him through the only way they could influence him; by abusing his love for his Legion.

B. If the Gods could have corrupted all of them if they wanted to, why didn't they? In the end, they ended up with the Legions that had always had their fair share of problems, both with themselves as with others; Horus himself even noted at one point that his allies were not the best of the best. Why settle for second-best if you could have powerhouses like Sanguinius, Dorn, The Lion, etc?

 Ezra Tyrius wrote:
Good point about it not always being voluntary; if regular humans can be forced to convert, so could Primarchs, indeed

Two things keep bugging me though;

A. Doesn't the fact that the Chaos gods had to trick Sanguinius into sacrificing himself for his Legion in order to corrupt him more or less prove that he really was incorruptible by any other means? Seems to me like they tried to corrupt him through the only way they could influence him; by abusing his love for his Legion.

B. If the Gods could have corrupted all of them if they wanted to, why didn't they? In the end, they ended up with the Legions that had always had their fair share of problems, both with themselves as with others; Horus himself even noted at one point that his allies were not the best of the best. Why settle for second-best if you could have powerhouses like Sanguinius, Dorn, The Lion, etc?

A. I suppose you could look at it that way, but when I say he wasn't incorruptible I don't mean he would be an easy target. I just mean that Chaos could find a way to corrupt him, possibly without him even fully realizing that he has fallen.
B. Because they didn't want to destroy the Imperium, they wanted a state of constant conflict. Chaos got exactly what they wanted by making sure Horus had just enough forces on his side to cripple the Imperium but not destroy it.

 Ezra Tyrius wrote:


Manus is indeed something of a wild-card; on the one hand, he's too stubborn to give in to corruption, but on the other hand, if he and his Legion had gone too far with their reliance on technology, it could have opened up a nasty can of worms.

Definitely. When I think of their whole flesh is weak motto, It makes me think of the Necrons. They are a race that also decided the flesh was weak and look what happened to them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Orblivion wrote:

B. Because they didn't want to destroy the Imperium, they wanted a state of constant conflict. Chaos got exactly what they wanted by making sure Horus had just enough forces on his side to cripple the Imperium but not destroy it.

Good point. That is kind of what happened in the Warhammer Fantasy universe. Everything got destroyed so the Chaos gods just moved on.

Human history is littered with people that thought they could do it better, different or wants the power.
Super human or not. It would have happened . Yeah yeah blame the astartes. A revolt would have happened anyway
Only reason the Heresy mattered so much was because it was combined with a expansion, that was suddenly turned back on itself.

 Harriticus wrote:
Heresy was inevitable, the Chaos Gods just needed to find their pawns. That being said it is commonly accepted that Guilliman, Manus, Dorn, Russ, and Sanguinius were the "incorruptible" Primarchs. The loyalists most likely to betray were Khan and the Lion

Why does everyone forget about poor Vulkan and Corax?

Leman Russ would never betray the Emperor, he was clearly never going to side with chaos and the Big E trusted him like no other, Incorruptible

Ferrus Manus has no motivation to work with chaos, he is interested in technology and using it protect people, incorruptible

I doubt Fulgrim would have stayed on the path to Chaos if BOTH Ferrus manus and Horus had been Loyalists but it could have been a close one

Vulkan is not a likely candidate for chaos either, he didn't relent even after Empy had died and he was tortured constantly, he's incorruptible

Dorn cared greatly for the Emperors vision but even when his legion was broken up chose a suicidal death over corruption, incorruptible though suicidal

Guilliman is a toughy, he was clearly ready to abandon the big E if need be and started building secundus but he also clearly had a hate for chaos, i doubt he would have turned to chaos but could have rebelled later on

Magnus is similarly tough, he never intended to rebel but broke the rules and when his legion were being massacred was clearly more loyal to them than the big E, if the Emperor had been able to offer to reverse the rubric i think he would have surrendered, if not then he would go to the EoT

Sanguinius is incorruptible, it's not even a question, the guy was willing to grind a Legion to dust single handedly AND try to fight Horus in a row to defend the Palace

I have no clue on the Lion, some even still think he was actually a traitor, however Fateweaver found nothing but loyalty to him when the two fought so he's likely incorruptible

Perturabo was one of the main Leaders of the Heresy, even without Horus goading him he was practically ready to rebel by the time of the heresy anyway due to his and his legions poor treatment by pretty much everybody

Mortarion similarly had an epiphany about the Emperors treatment when he discovered his latent phsycic abilities, even without Horus he would still have found this and turned very much against him but might not have fully rebelled but being caught in the warp as he was would have happened either way and he would sadly inevitably become what he hated

Lorgar started all this, he would be part of the heresy no matter what though could have not tried for such open warfare without the help of Horus and probably wouldn't want to attack Terra

Khan was an outsider but a loyalist through and through, he went into the same suicidal desperate attack as Dorn did after the Heresy, likely Incorruptible

Kurze was mad, aand he knew it to, he even hated his own legion by the end, he also was only nominally part of the Heresy with little input from Horus or any other

Corax was similar to Khan, an outsider with few friends but never once looked to betray the big E, even when his legion were a bare few thousand and his own body and equipment heavily damaged, i think he was Incorruptible

Angron was mad from the start and was inevitably to turn to chaos, Horus just pointed him in a direction

Alpharius/Omegon, who knows, people still aren't sure what side they are exactly on or what motivates them in 40k NEVERMIND 30k

Here's the thing, I think most of this would have been fine if the Emperor would have just TOLD his Primarchs what was going on.

Magnus never wanted to betray the Emperor, he even made deals with the warp (unknowingly tzeentch) to force a teleport through the warp to warn the Emp about Horus's betrayal.
This destroyed the Emperors secret webway which screwed up all his plans.
Big E yelled at him, he cried and ran away, and Emperor told Russ to bring him back.
Tzeentch made it so Russ's orders were "Kill him and burn Prospero".
Russ being the Emps executioner was like "OK".
If the Emperor had just told them about the webway, none of that would have happened.

Purtabo would have been fine if the Emperor had a SINGLE compassionate bone in his body, and told Purtabo why he could see the eye of terror, that it was real, instead of calling him crazy.
The rest of the Primarch Pantheon was really dickish to him too. Absolutly no-one showed respect for him or his skills as a diplomat.

Lorgar's existence was a somewhat tragic one as well, if the Emperor had just told him why Lorgar couldn't worship him as a god, then Lorgar could have understood better.
Lorgar was raised in a religious world, and needed a god to worship as part of his core values.
The Emperor wanted nobody to worship anything so the Chaos gods would have less power.

The Emperors flaws were such that he saw his Primarchs as extensions of himself, instead of individuals influenced by the worlds they were raised on.
He expected absolute loyalty without ever giving any of them a reason to be loyal, other than "I'm more powerful than you and therefore leader".

 Orblivion wrote:

B. Because they didn't want to destroy the Imperium, they wanted a state of constant conflict. Chaos got exactly what they wanted by making sure Horus had just enough forces on his side to cripple the Imperium but not destroy it.

Why did they try and corrupt Sanguinius and Jonson then if all they wanted was the ones that they got?

TCF wrote:

 Orblivion wrote:

B. Because they didn't want to destroy the Imperium, they wanted a state of constant conflict. Chaos got exactly what they wanted by making sure Horus had just enough forces on his side to cripple the Imperium but not destroy it.

Why did they try and corrupt Sanguinius and Jonson then if all they wanted was the ones that they got?

That's the real question since Fateweaver can see the strings of the future better than anyone (even Tzeentch).
They should have known who would work and who wouldn't.

While the stalemate is beneficial to Chaos, I doubt it was the intended goal of enacting the Heresy. It wasn't so much a calculated move as it was, "Oh feth, this giant human dude is going to annihilate us, we better get off our asses and do something" damage control.

TCF wrote:

 Orblivion wrote:

B. Because they didn't want to destroy the Imperium, they wanted a state of constant conflict. Chaos got exactly what they wanted by making sure Horus had just enough forces on his side to cripple the Imperium but not destroy it.

Why did they try and corrupt Sanguinius and Jonson then if all they wanted was the ones that they got?

I'd say Sanguinius was insurance, while Johnson was really just a target of opportunity for Fateweaver and not necessarily a part of the 4 gods' plans.

 asorel wrote:
While the stalemate is beneficial to Chaos, I doubt it was the intended goal of enacting the Heresy. It wasn't so much a calculated move as it was, "Oh feth, this giant human dude is going to annihilate us, we better get off our asses and do something" damage control.

Oh my god you might be right. Were they active during the dark age of technology?
Cause humanity was WAAAAY more powerful then, and by extension would have been more of a threat to them.
Or were they just inactive in realspace until the birth of Revered Slaanesh, The Dark Prince, Prince of Pleasure, Lord of Excess, Perfect Prince, and Prince of Chaos?

 Mantorok wrote:

 asorel wrote:
While the stalemate is beneficial to Chaos, I doubt it was the intended goal of enacting the Heresy. It wasn't so much a calculated move as it was, "Oh feth, this giant human dude is going to annihilate us, we better get off our asses and do something" damage control.

Oh my god you might be right. Were they active during the dark age of technology?
Cause humanity was WAAAAY more powerful then, and by extension would have been more of a threat to them.
Or were they just inactive in realspace until the birth of Revered Slaanesh, The Dark Prince, Prince of Pleasure, Lord of Excess, Perfect Prince, and Prince of Chaos?

Chaos didn't do much until the Age of Strife. There is speculation that they caused the Men of Iron to rebel, but that may have been the Void Dragon, or just plain old Skynet.

DAoT humanity was probably less of a threat to Chaos than the IoM. Fewer psykers, for one, and complete ignorance (supposedly) to the existence of Chaos. The Emperor is by most accounts stronger than the Big Four, and it was his reveal that kicked them into gear.