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So I am debating whether to get Magnus or the new Lord of Change kit. I am a Daemon player and do not currently play CSM of any variety.
I am discussing the conversion possibilities here: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/716260.page#9174145
In that thread I am debating getting the Magnus kit and magnetizing different heads so it can be a LoC or maybe even a D-Thirster

But for this topic, I want to discuss using the new LoC kit as a "counts as" Magnus.
Assuming I get the LoC kit (which is seeming most likely) and make it into a LoC, how palatable would it be to occasionally use it as Magnus?

I would only use Magnus every once in a while and probably not in tourneys.....probably.
Since LoCs can alter their appearance and come in a wide variety of power levels, I would merely be using Magnus's rules to represent a powerful Lord of Change.
Kind of how the Forge World LoC special character has drastically different rules than a traditional LoC

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Honestly I would let you use anything that was big and walked as magus. Got a Imperial knight sure. Blood thither sure LoC 100% sure.

Cool. It is convenient that they are both on the 100mm base and are feathered Tzeetch FMCs.

I suppose I'll paint the LoC in the Magnus scheme (which I like anyway) and call him "Sungam the Scarlett" or some such play on words.

Outside of tournaments I can´t see many people saying no to it as a stand in. I have seen a full scout army used as Sisters of Battle

While I would be okay with a proxy, I will also shame you for doing this. It's freakin' MAGNUS THE RED. This legend deserves to be on the tabletop in all his majestic glory, painted to the very best of your abilities. Anything less, and you do him a disservice.

(I will rarely ever play him, but I had to pick up this model. Here's my paintjob; http://i.imgur.com/fmWS38x.jpg)

The problem I have with proxies like that, is that I forget what I am up against.

I will subconsciously forget that it is Magnus during movement/shooting/etc. It is the same problem with all proxies.

You just don't really think it's Magnus until the dice start rolling.

You won´t forget its magnus as you will still be hurting from his psychic phase last turn

 rawne2510 wrote:
You won´t forget its magnus as you will still be hurting from his psychic phase last turn

Right, nor will it be easy to forget that the giant redish Tzeetch Daemon with bird wings is Magnus, I mean Sungam.

But at this point, I don't see myself playing Magnus very much. Certainly not enough to merit his price tag.
I will use a LoC often enough though.

I want to try Magnus out from time to time and this seem the best option for me. They are both similar models and with the same paint scheme, I don't think even the local tourneys would have an issue with me using it as Magnus. They are both clearly centerpiece models and armies are built around them. I may wait just to see the size difference (if there is one at all)

At what point does a proxy become a conversion? For example, I don't think anyone would have an issue with me doing the reverse of this: buying the Magnus model and replacing his head with a bird head.
That would clearly be a conversion and could be used as Magnus or a LoC without hesitation.
So what makes the opposite so unappealing?

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 Yarium wrote:
While I would be okay with a proxy, I will also shame you for doing this. It's freakin' MAGNUS THE RED. This legend deserves to be on the tabletop in all his majestic glory, painted to the very best of your abilities. Anything less, and you do him a disservice.

(I will rarely ever play him, but I had to pick up this model. Here's my paintjob; http://i.imgur.com/fmWS38x.jpg)

Not going to lie I think Magnus is one of the uglier models they have made since I started playing.

I was also thinking of running Magnus represented by a LOC.. I'm not a fan of the Magnus model at all but his rules are awesome!!

I am on the fence about the Magnus model. Parts of him are cool, but I kinda don't like the "I'm a giant Space Marine" look. Not to mention his stupid hair. The "daemon" parts of his are awesome though.
The new LoC model on the other hand, looks awesome, if a bit too big. But Magnus's rules do however match the size of that LoC, so.....

 Galef wrote:

 rawne2510 wrote:
You won´t forget its magnus as you will still be hurting from his psychic phase last turn

Right, nor will it be easy to forget that the giant redish Tzeetch Daemon with bird wings is Magnus, I mean Sungam.

But at this point, I don't see myself playing Magnus very much. Certainly not enough to merit his price tag.
I will use a LoC often enough though.

I want to try Magnus out from time to time and this seem the best option for me. They are both similar models and with the same paint scheme, I don't think even the local tourneys would have an issue with me using it as Magnus. They are both clearly centerpiece models and armies are built around them. I may wait just to see the size difference (if there is one at all)

At what point does a proxy become a conversion? For example, I don't think anyone would have an issue with me doing the reverse of this: buying the Magnus model and replacing his head with a bird head.
That would clearly be a conversion and could be used as Magnus or a LoC without hesitation.
So what makes the opposite so unappealing?

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Agree

But then I have got him and will likely be getting 2 x LoC (one as Kairos). I love the look of the LoC models

Yep, just trying to get the most out of an over $100 model.

As a once off, sure, why not. On any sort of remotely regular basis (ie. more than once or twice a year), well, you'd get some pointed comments, but I doubt I'd refuse the game for that reason. As a regular occurance, no, especially not if you're constantly switching between him counting as a LoC or Magnus.

It's your army and your money. If you think a model is cooler then another or what not go for it!

If someone doesn't want to play you because of it... just don't play them. Play someone else it's a game a fun game I wouldn't want to take the fun out of it for someone else as long as we both have fun we're good to go!

I would support that 100%.

I personally feel that elitism to the point where even a painted/converted model of the right size/shape/style isn't "OK" to represent a Special Character is the only thing worthy of contempt in this whole situation.

That said, you may find people refuse to play, and your local opinions are far, far more useful for your determination on whether this is a worthwhile endeavor (though you'll be able to use the model as a LoC regardless, so you don't really lose either way).

Perhaps you should ask the players you play regularly, and/or consider whether any of them do something similar. My old gaming group would have applauded the effort.

I feel that with Magnus, players are more likely to refuse a game because of the Magnus rules, not because of the model I'd be using.
So the way I figure it, those ok to play against Magnus's rule are probably ok to play against a non-Magnus model representing Magnus.

Of course, someone could just as easily use their dislike of the rules to claim that I have to have his actual model to play his rules. Luckily I don't personally know any D-bags like that.

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Yarium wrote:While I would be okay with a proxy, I will also shame you for doing this. It's freakin' MAGNUS THE RED. This legend deserves to be on the tabletop in all his majestic glory, painted to the very best of your abilities. Anything less, and you do him a disservice.

(I will rarely ever play him, but I had to pick up this model. Here's my paintjob; http://i.imgur.com/fmWS38x.jpg)

Not everyone has money. It takes time to save up for a lot of people. So if "counts as" needs to be used. So be it. I say for the person who is buying the mini "Rule of Cool" in your eyes.

Also love your Magnus minis. BEAUTIFULY painted. I am jealous.

Whitebeard wrote:The problem I have with proxies like that, is that I forget what I am up against.

I will subconsciously forget that it is Magnus during movement/shooting/etc. It is the same problem with all proxies.

You just don't really think it's Magnus until the dice start rolling.

I do not buy this argument. Someone has tried this on me before. I find it funny "he could forget" but then this person knows most of the rules in the BRB, doesn't need to consult his codex for all the options his army can do, and even knows almost all the codices of by heart but a simple "counts as" throws him off? In this case, in what will be what his only Giant Mini on the table, you are going to "forget" what it is? Sorry I don't buy it. I have never once had issues as "counts as" when I used it or when my opponent uses it.

Galef wrote:Yep, just trying to get the most out of an over $100 model.

And that is why you need to get the Lord of Change. From reading your posts, that is what you would rather have. I agree it's a sweet mini and because of it, I started up the army as well.

I'd be okay with it occasionally. If you were using him regularly, I'd much prefer you have the actual model, but if not oh well.

That being said, it is certainly not WYSIWYG, and while in general people shouldn't have confusion, depending on what they're focused on it can happen or they can have a spacey moment(partially depends on level of play). Additionally, if you play other proxies as well it will start getting confusing (too many proxies is usually the issue, not a single proxie). If you ever want to run Magnus and an LOC, you really need both models. It's most likely to cause confusion if other players in your area use Magnus and/or LOCs. I'd suggest asking the people you play with, rather than random people on the internet, as frankly our opinions don't impact your day to day interactions.

If you're wanting tournament use, just get Magnus.

From what you've said, I'd get the LOC, and get Magnus later if you decide you really want him.

 troa wrote:
I'd be okay with it occasionally. If you were using him regularly, I'd much prefer you have the actual model, but if not oh well.

I am not saying you are wrong because that is how you feel. While I don't agree with this at all, I don't understand either. I would like to understand your way of thinking. I mean money and time is not easy for everyone. If someone prefers the Lord of Change in this case over Magnus, why can't he use it all the time? Just trying to understand your point of view.

broo wrote:
I was also thinking of running Magnus represented by a LOC.. I'm not a fan of the Magnus model at all but his rules are awesome!!

This might be what bothers me in these sort of count as. You like model x, but model y has stronger rules so lets use rules y.
I am fine with cool fluffy conversions or themed lists etc. this is the most interesting part of the hobby in my opinion. However far fetched conversions in order to get the best rules feel like powergaming shenanigans to me. I don't mind most shenanigans but there are moments when they start stretching it too far.

Its kinda the same as fielding a blue "dark angels" army when the dark angels codex happens to be stronger at the time. Those players aren't suddenly interested in the rich background of blue dark angel successor chapters with U's on their shoulders, they just want do krump you with better rules and don't mind damaging the suspense of disbelieve for it. This isn't that bad to try out new rules etc but just don't do it all the time.

My personal stance is that proxies are fine, if:

a) The model is unique - Putting a quarter under the individual troop who is representing something completely different makes life hard, and people forget. Or, there is consistency in your proxying (for instance, a coke can is ALWAYS a drop pod).

b) The size is approximate - Proxying an individual scout as Magnus the Red would be problematic from a gameplay perspective.

c) You're not using too many proxies - Again, it's really hard to keep track of all of this.

So, to me, performing that proxy is totally fine.

I similarly proxy a librarian in terminator armor as Chief Librarian Tigurius. It's the only librarian in my army, so it's unique, it's the only proxy, and they're about the same size. People can't really call me cheap either, since a libby in term armor is more expensive than Tigurius. I just hate Tigurius' model, and the fact that it's old school plastic, which requires super glue, which i loathe.

Would it count as a proxy though?
I mean if I took the effort to paint it like Magnus and came up with a unique backstory for why this LoC is so powerful (still less powerful than the FW LoC, btw).

To me, a proxy is a model that you are substituting for another simply because it is roughly the same size, but no actual effort to make said proxy look like the intended model is made.
Using a Solo cup as a Drop Pod comes to mind.

In addition to "saving money" I am also interested in accurately representing my models. The old metal/finecast LoC set the standard for what a LoC is. The new model is almost twice that size. The rule should "occasionally" represent that. Ergo, I'll use Magnus's rules to better represent a LoC that is that big. To me, that is almost as WYSIWYG as getting the actual Magnus model.

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 Galef wrote:
Would it count as a proxy though?
I mean if I took the effort to paint it like Magnus and came up with a unique backstory for why this LoC is so powerful (still less powerful than the FW LoC, btw).

To me, a proxy is a model that you are substituting for another simply because it is roughly the same size, but no actual effort to make said proxy look like the intended model is made.
Using a Solo cup as a Drop Pod comes to mind.

In addition to "saving money" I am also interested in accurately representing my models. The old metal/finecast LoC set the standard for what a LoC is. The new model is almost twice that size. The rule should "occasionally" represent that. Ergo, I'll use Magnus's rules to better represent a LoC that is that big. To me, that is almost as WYSIWYG as getting the actual Magnus model.

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You have no need to make excuses. It's your money. It's your time. You can do what ever you like. Games Workshop has even said this numerous times. "Counts as" is perfectly legal and fine. Don't let anyone tell you how to do the hobby. It's not like you are fielding 2, 3 or more Magnus minis with all different rules that can really be confusing.

Buy the minis you want. Buy the minis you think are "Rule of Cool".

I have not participated in a league because I am being told I can't do what I want. They actually want me to spend an extra $300 just so it's WYSIWYG and I can't play how I want. So I will not play. Nobody is going to tell me what I have to spend what little money I have now. Even if I had millions of dollars, nobody can tell me how to spend my money anyways. But since money is limited to me, I buy what I want, what I think is Rule of Cool and enjoy modelling and painting that mini.

So don't worry about how other people think or say. They are not buying you a mini to be WYSIWYG, they are not modelling the mini and they are not painting it for you. You don't need to say if money is an issue or not, or you don't have time to do 2 big minis. Just go ahead and do what you like. Please don't make excuses to faceless people on the internet who are judging you because you don't play their way.

TL;DR

Your hobby. Your time. Your money. Do as you please and don't let anyone tell you how to do your hobby, money and time.

 Galef wrote:

In addition to "saving money" I am also interested in accurately representing my models.

Any converter knows that conversions usually do not really save you any money, since you end up using multiple expensive GW kits for just one model ; )




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Galef wrote:

In addition to "saving money" I am also interested in accurately representing my models. The old metal/finecast LoC set the standard for what a LoC is. The new model is almost twice that size. The rule should "occasionally" represent that. Ergo, I'll use Magnus's rules to better represent a LoC that is that big. To me, that is almost as WYSIWYG as getting the actual Magnus model.

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Am I the only one who is expecting new Lord of Change rules in the same way they did new rules for the blood thirster, or have they already empowered them with the new powers / items in the tzeentch book ?
For it seems that you don't want to run magnus but that you just want to run a stronger Lord of change, it might be wise to wait a bit if there are new rules for them if they are to be expected.

 Galef wrote:
Would it count as a proxy though?
I mean if I took the effort to paint it like Magnus and came up with a unique backstory for why this LoC is so powerful (still less powerful than the FW LoC, btw).

To me, a proxy is a model that you are substituting for another simply because it is roughly the same size, but no actual effort to make said proxy look like the intended model is made.
Using a Solo cup as a Drop Pod comes to mind.

In addition to "saving money" I am also interested in accurately representing my models. The old metal/finecast LoC set the standard for what a LoC is. The new model is almost twice that size. The rule should "occasionally" represent that. Ergo, I'll use Magnus's rules to better represent a LoC that is that big. To me, that is almost as WYSIWYG as getting the actual Magnus model.

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In my opinion, yes, it's a proxy, but that in no way should stop you from using it.

For instance, if you were playing magic the gathering and created - from scratch - your own "force of will" that was acceptable in a deck, yeah it'd be awesome. Totally awesome, and probably cost you a ton and was very time consuming to craft. However, it is not force of will that was opened from an alliance booster, so it's a proxy.

Is it technically a Magnus the Red? No. Therefore, it's a proxy.
Is there literally anything wrong with what you're describing? No. In fact, it's encouraged by the game's narrative nature.

 oldzoggy wrote:

 Galef wrote:

In addition to "saving money" I am also interested in accurately representing my models.

Any converter knows that conversions usually do not really save you any money, since you end up using multiple expensive GW kits for just one model ; )




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Galef wrote:

In addition to "saving money" I am also interested in accurately representing my models. The old metal/finecast LoC set the standard for what a LoC is. The new model is almost twice that size. The rule should "occasionally" represent that. Ergo, I'll use Magnus's rules to better represent a LoC that is that big. To me, that is almost as WYSIWYG as getting the actual Magnus model.

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Am I the only one who is expecting new Lord of Change rules in the same way they did new rules for the blood thirster, or have they already empowered them with the new powers / items in the tzeentch book ?
For it seems that you don't want to run magnus but that you just want to run a stronger Lord of change, it might be wise to wait a bit if there are new rules for them to be expected.

I saved plenty when I converted my WKs using Wraithlords riding Vyper jetbikes. Both kits combined were still about $30 cheaper than a single WK kit.
But that was back when they were just MCs and now as GMC those models don't pull off the same effect, so I get you point. Dual-use conversions do save money though.

And no, the LoC didn't really change. The Curse of the Wulfen gave some nice wargear, like the Robes & Paradox and extended the Change disciple, but just like the BloodThirster before it, the statline and points cost did not change (points only went up on the 2 variants of BT that have different wargear)
Kairos got updated rules for AoS, but not for 40K. The model is an example of GWs scale creep. As much as I like the design of the new LOC (and I really do) I have that my current LoC is dwarfed by it. Reducing it to a lower Tz Daemon Prince.

 Marmatag wrote:

Is it technically a Magnus the Red? No. Therefore, it's a proxy.

If that is the standard for a proxy, than dang. Like 80% of all the models I have ever own are proxies, not conversions.
I started Daemons when most of the range was metal and I only use plastic minis, so I used a ton of Fantasy kits to make my own. Always GW product though. Or greenstuff. Lots of greenstuff.
I invite you to check out my blog in my sig to see what I mean.

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I totally feel for the OP. The Magnus model is really cool IMO, and I got one for myself, but I really don't see myself using it very often as he's not really my play style. I would definitely get much more table time with a Lord of Change or a Knight, so for representation, either of those would have been a smarter buy.

I'd say if you're torn between the LoC and Magnus, getting either of those and occasionally proxying it for the other is totally fine. Magnus is such a special case model as you practically have to build your army around him, making the purchase a little awkward for game-use. Getting a different, more generic model and doing the proxy thing is totally understandable. You could just say it's not Magnus but some other totally amped up Daemon Prince that's a "counts-as". (there are obviously other Greater Daemon/Daemon Prince "champions" in the Galaxy).

 Insectum7 wrote:
I totally feel for the OP. The Magnus model is really cool IMO, and I got one for myself, but I really don't see myself using it very often as he's not really my play style. I would definitely get much more table time with a Lord of Change or a Knight, so for representation, either of those would have been a smarter buy.

I'd say if you're torn between the LoC and Magnus, getting either of those and occasionally proxying it for the other is totally fine. Magnus is such a special case model as you practically have to build your army around him, making the purchase a little awkward for game-use. Getting a different, more generic model and doing the proxy thing is totally understandable. You could just say it's not Magnus but some other totally amped up Daemon Prince that's a "counts-as". (there are obviously other Greater Daemon/Daemon Prince "champions" in the Galaxy).

Very well said.

I wouldn't see an issue, expecially if you spent some time doing some sort of conversion to denote it's something more than just a standard LoC. However, unless I've missed something, you can't run Magnus in a DoC army. He's a LoW for CMS faction.