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With GW releasing seperate boxes of Space Marine squads in Mk III and IV armor, it has caught my attention on the fluff of the armor and how the armor is displayed in the current era.

We know that some SM chapters still have/use the older power armor- now, if a chapter had a different color scheme (so pre-heresy color schemes for example) but they are still using that power armor version in the current settings, would that marine be wearing pre-heresy colored armor or would they re-color them so it fits the current era?

And I also heard that some Chapters or Ad Mech(can't remember) still can produce old power armor- are older versions of the power armor 'weaker' then current power armor?
Do they have less functions?

Any more info regarding older Power Armor would be interesting. Thanks guys!

Overdose wrote:
With GW releasing seperate boxes of Space Marine squads in Mk III and IV armor, it has caught my attention on the fluff of the armor and how the armor is displayed in the current era.

We know that some SM chapters still have/use the older power armor- now, if a chapter had a different color scheme (so pre-heresy color schemes for example) but they are still using that power armor version in the current settings, would that marine be wearing pre-heresy colored armor or would they re-color them so it fits the current era?

And I also heard that some Chapters or Ad Mech(can't remember) still can produce old power armor- are older versions of the power armor 'weaker' then current power armor?
Do they have less functions?

Any more info regarding older Power Armor would be interesting. Thanks guys!

All the power armor versions are roughly the same in performance, stat-wise. Fluff wise, some were a bit better than others, and some were harder to manufacture than others. The early models are generally regarded as 'better' because the IoM is in decline, tech wise.

Mk3 is said to be the best, but no longer in production or at least mass production. The ones that are still in use did likely changed colour. During 30k alpha legion was known to be capable of changing their colour scheems and infiltrating other legions. So its defenitivly possible do do so, if their company kept changed the colour scheme they would also change.

 Pedro31 wrote:
Mk3 is said to be the best, but no longer in production or at least mass production. The ones that are still in use did likely changed colour. During 30k alpha legion was known to be capable of changing their colour scheems and infiltrating other legions. So its defenitivly possible do do so, if their company kept changed the colour scheme they would also change.

You mean MK2, MK3 is MK2 withmore plating in the front

If it looks good it ticks all the boxes that matter.

 Jehan-reznor wrote:

 Pedro31 wrote:
Mk3 is said to be the best, but no longer in production or at least mass production.

You mean MK2, MK3 is MK2 withmore plating in the front

Actually that would be Mk4 - hence it's name "Maximus". Mk2 was the best the Mechanicum could cobble together at the outset of the Great Crusade, Mk4 was developed at the end, incorporating the most advanced technologies and rarest materials recovered from a million worlds - which rendered it untenable when the Imperial supply lines collapsed during the Horus Heresy.

 Pedro31 wrote:
Mk3 is said to be the best, but no longer in production or at least mass production. The ones that are still in use did likely changed colour. During 30k alpha legion was known to be capable of changing their colour scheems and infiltrating other legions. So its defenitivly possible do do so, if their company kept changed the colour scheme they would also change.

Nah pretty sure either IV or VI was best. III def not best. It was rather specialized one geared for boarding actions. It has heavier frontal armour so surviving attacks from front is more likely but conversely rear armour is thinner. Also it eats power like nothing resulting in being uncomfortably hot.

MKIV was improvement over that. V was ad-hoc solution due to difficulty of maintaining and building new MKIV's. VI might have been better as it wasn't ad-hoc solution like V.

tneva82 wrote:
III def not best. It was rather specialized one geared for boarding actions. It has heavier frontal armour so surviving attacks from front is more likely but conversely rear armour is thinner. Also it eats power like nothing resulting in being uncomfortably hot.

Have you got a source for the overheating? I've seen multiple people claim it recently but whilst I know two canon sources of for Mk5 overheating I know of none for Mk3 - the purpose of the reduced rear armour to lessen strain on the system was presumably to avoid such a problem.

tneva82 wrote:

MKIV was improvement over that. V was ad-hoc solution due to difficulty of maintaining and building new MKIV's. VI might have been better as it wasn't ad-hoc solution like V.

In the modern fluff before being issued en-mass to the Raven Guard the Mk6 prototype was initially field tested by the Salamanders and Iron Warriors, neither of whom found any merit to its existence. Like Mk3 its merits would appear to have been situational, hence presumably the development of Mk7 (whereas in the original fluff Mk6 was the 'not quite finished' product of the Mk7 development project).

 Gashrog wrote:

 Jehan-reznor wrote:

 Pedro31 wrote:
Mk3 is said to be the best, but no longer in production or at least mass production.

You mean MK2, MK3 is MK2 withmore plating in the front

Actually that would be Mk4 - hence it's name "Maximus". Mk2 was the best the Mechanicum could cobble together at the outset of the Great Crusade, Mk4 was developed at the end, incorporating the most advanced technologies and rarest materials recovered from a million worlds - which rendered it untenable when the Imperial supply lines collapsed during the Horus Heresy.

Hm no, MK4 was easier to maintain and introduced free movement of the head.
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Power_Armour

Both mark IV and III are said to be the beast, theres arguments in the fluf for either of them, all we know is that mark V was developed in a time both loyalists and traitors were low on supplies, V and all newer models are inferior quality!

I thought the Deathwatch RPG said the Corvus (MK VI) was the best and that its only downside was the helmet's incompatibility with the MK VIII's chest plate and gorget.

 Jehan-reznor wrote:

 Gashrog wrote:

 Jehan-reznor wrote:

 Pedro31 wrote:
Mk3 is said to be the best, but no longer in production or at least mass production.

You mean MK2, MK3 is MK2 withmore plating in the front

Actually that would be Mk4 - hence it's name "Maximus". Mk2 was the best the Mechanicum could cobble together at the outset of the Great Crusade, Mk4 was developed at the end, incorporating the most advanced technologies and rarest materials recovered from a million worlds - which rendered it untenable when the Imperial supply lines collapsed during the Horus Heresy.

Hm no, MK4 was easier to maintain and introduced free movement of the head.
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Power_Armour

Whilst it is true that many maintain that Mark 2 is the most efficient suit, efficient is a somewhat vague term, this for example is a very efficient car:
http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/NTIzWDgwMA==/z/9wwAAOSwZjJU2kiu/$_12.JPG

The description of Mark in the same source is considerably less vague however:
"Mark 4 armour was designed to be the ultimate and final type of Space Marine armour, able to offer the best protection in a variety of conditions" ~ White Dwarf 129/RT Compilation

 Pedro31 wrote:
Both mark IV and III are said to be the beast, theres arguments in the fluf for either of them

I've seen many players argue that Mk3 is the best suit, but their argument has always been based on the idea that Mk3 is awesome because the fluff about it having reduced rear armour and never being intended to replace Mk2 is really old an therefore obsolete, not because they have any actual fluff from GW that says so - and that argument was nipped in the bud by the Legions of War booklet in Burning of Prospero reiterating both of those points.

 Gashrog wrote:

 Jehan-reznor wrote:

 Gashrog wrote:

 Jehan-reznor wrote:

 Pedro31 wrote:
Mk3 is said to be the best, but no longer in production or at least mass production.

You mean MK2, MK3 is MK2 withmore plating in the front

Actually that would be Mk4 - hence it's name "Maximus". Mk2 was the best the Mechanicum could cobble together at the outset of the Great Crusade, Mk4 was developed at the end, incorporating the most advanced technologies and rarest materials recovered from a million worlds - which rendered it untenable when the Imperial supply lines collapsed during the Horus Heresy.

Hm no, MK4 was easier to maintain and introduced free movement of the head.
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Power_Armour

Whilst it is true that many maintain that Mark 2 is the most efficient suit, efficient is a somewhat vague term, this for example is a very efficient car:
http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/NTIzWDgwMA==/z/9wwAAOSwZjJU2kiu/$_12.JPG

The description of Mark in the same source is considerably less vague however:
"Mark 4 armour was designed to be the ultimate and final type of Space Marine armour, able to offer the best protection in a variety of conditions" ~ White Dwarf 129/RT Compilation

 Pedro31 wrote:
Both mark IV and III are said to be the beast, theres arguments in the fluf for either of them

I've seen many players argue that Mk3 is the best suit, but their argument has always been based on the idea that Mk3 is awesome because the fluff about it having reduced rear armour and never being intended to replace Mk2 is really old an therefore obsolete, not because they have any actual fluff from GW that says so - and that argument was nipped in the bud by the Legions of War booklet in Burning of Prospero reiterating both of those points.

MK IV was INTENDED to be the best, but the Heresy happened. MK VI has much superior autosenses and supposedly stealth capabilities, and was modular for easier repair. MK VII is an upgrade of 6 that has a solid breastplate with no exposed cables, and MK8 is a further upgrade that removes the bullet-hole using the gorget.

yeah saying the MK IV was the best now is proably a bad idea. it'd be like reading a bit of text about the F-15 saying "the F-15 was designed to be the best air superiority fighter in the world" and then concluding it means the F-15 is better then the F-22

Except that technology scales backwards in 40k meaning that older=better starting at the heresy.

Mkiv may have best tech in general.

Mk6 best sensors and such.

Mk7-8 are based off the success of mk4, but more refined by extensive combat use and things have been improved in the design.

Now. Mk4 may be best on paper, but 7-8 also have ironed out some of its weak points.

Id say its between mk 8 or mk4.

 Forcast wrote:
Except that technology scales backwards in 40k meaning that older=better starting at the heresy.

You're misinterpreting the whole "technological decline" thing. The imperium is on the decline in that it has lost technologies and continues to do so over time. No where is it stated that newer technologies developed in the imperium (rare as they are), are worse than the old technologies. If we suddenly no longer knew how to make computers or machines, but we got really good at sword crafting and developed a new sword, that wouldn't automatically make the new sword worse than an old sword.

 troa wrote:

 Forcast wrote:
Except that technology scales backwards in 40k meaning that older=better starting at the heresy.

No where is it stated that newer technologies developed in the imperium (rare as they are), are worse than the old technologies.

No where except for.. the original power armour fluff article which still forms the underlying basis of the modern armour fluff. Mark 5 as described therein was pretty much rubbish produced out of desperation, akin to the final iteration (ausf J) of the Panzer IV from which the Germans had been forced by the near-collapse of their war industry to remove the electric turret traverse thereby requiring the gunner to rotate the turret manually with a crank. Marks 6 & 7 were superior to Mark 5 but the article was unclear as to whether they were superior to Mark 4 but it's generally been taken as unlikely given that they were developed in the same desperate situation - Imperial Armour 10 agrees with this as it notes that Mark 7 lacks some of the advanced systems of Mark 4 & 6.

 troa wrote:

 Forcast wrote:
Except that technology scales backwards in 40k meaning that older=better starting at the heresy.

You're misinterpreting the whole "technological decline" thing. The imperium is on the decline in that it has lost technologies and continues to do so over time. No where is it stated that newer technologies developed in the imperium (rare as they are), are worse than the old technologies. If we suddenly no longer knew how to make computers or machines, but we got really good at sword crafting and developed a new sword, that wouldn't automatically make the new sword worse than an old sword.

With technological decline comes decline in precision and quality manufacturing. Things built before the heresy were of a higher quality. Materials were more pure and uniform, things fit together with a tighter tolerance putting less stress on them over time. The result is higher reliability and better protection for armor.

Mark 6-8's improvements are bascailly covering up for manufacting defects. "This joint seems to work fine in Mk4 suits, but fails often on Mk6 so lets put a little more plating over top of it"

 troa wrote:

 Forcast wrote:
Except that technology scales backwards in 40k meaning that older=better starting at the heresy.

You're misinterpreting the whole "technological decline" thing. The imperium is on the decline in that it has lost technologies and continues to do so over time. No where is it stated that newer technologies developed in the imperium (rare as they are), are worse than the old technologies. If we suddenly no longer knew how to make computers or machines, but we got really good at sword crafting and developed a new sword, that wouldn't automatically make the new sword worse than an old sword.

Other than the fact that the new sword would have a much more angry machine spirit and the design would be based on 10k years of added misinformation, misunderstanding, reduced production precision, and the suppression of new ideas...

If you don't actively combat entropy, your stuff will be inherently worse.

 Forcast wrote:
Except that technology scales backwards in 40k meaning that older=better starting at the heresy.

This is not actually 100% true. There are many technologies which have actually improved since the founding of the Imperium.

Power Armor, weaponry, and ship design, relative to what was designed during the heresy, has somewhat improved in some areas.

Astartes Power Armor is not an STC design, it's actually a free-form invention. So newer marks of power armor are in fact superior to older Heresy era designs.

In the area of man-portable weapons, there have been many improvements made. You know what Chaos Space Marines don't get man-portable multi-meltas or Plasma cannons? Because those designs weren't made till after the Heresy. Its why Chaos makes do with autocannons, combi-bolters, and other more primitive support weapons. While loyalists have man-portable plasma cannons, multi-meltas, etc...

There are of course many many areas where there has been decay, but its not an across the board thing. There are exceptions.

There are also more STCs which have been uncovered since the Heresy than there were at the beginning. And the Mechanicus does in-fact conduct research and progress. Its just at a snails pace. They vet anything and everything extremely thoroughly before sanctioning its wider acceptance. They'll also fudge some numbers if something is useful so it can get wider acceptance. They'll say X is a "lost STC" that was recently rediscovered, when it was really the result of some actual RnD, just so they can get it accepted sooner.

Relative to humanity before the Imperium, they've actually improved mankind's technological knowledge.

Prior to the Imperium, mankind was indeed in a free fall. The Imperium has somewhat arrested that free fall so its more like stagnation, with moves to try and improve in some areas, and failing to halt decline in others of course. But they are better off than they were before the Imperium was founded.

 Grey Templar wrote:

 Forcast wrote:
Except that technology scales backwards in 40k meaning that older=better starting at the heresy.

This is not actually 100% true. There are many technologies which have actually improved since the founding of the Imperium.

Power Armor, weaponry, and ship design, relative to what was designed during the heresy, has somewhat improved in some areas.

Astartes Power Armor is not an STC design, it's actually a free-form invention. So newer marks of power armor are in fact superior to older Heresy era designs.

In the area of man-portable weapons, there have been many improvements made. You know what Chaos Space Marines don't get man-portable multi-meltas or Plasma cannons? Because those designs weren't made till after the Heresy. Its why Chaos makes do with autocannons, combi-bolters, and other more primitive support weapons. While loyalists have man-portable plasma cannons, multi-meltas, etc...

There are of course many many areas where there has been decay, but its not an across the board thing. There are exceptions.

There are also more STCs which have been uncovered since the Heresy than there were at the beginning. And the Mechanicus does in-fact conduct research and progress. Its just at a snails pace. They vet anything and everything extremely thoroughly before sanctioning its wider acceptance. They'll also fudge some numbers if something is useful so it can get wider acceptance. They'll say X is a "lost STC" that was recently rediscovered, when it was really the result of some actual RnD, just so they can get it accepted sooner.

Relative to humanity before the Imperium, they've actually improved mankind's technological knowledge.

Prior to the Imperium, mankind was indeed in a free fall. The Imperium has somewhat arrested that free fall so its more like stagnation, with moves to try and improve in some areas, and failing to halt decline in others of course. But they are better off than they were before the Imperium was founded.

Just wondering where the sources are from. There are man portable plasma canons and multimeltas in the heresy...

And I never said that uncovering STCs wouldn't be better, but they would be older designs being produced at a later date, thus still being "older".

It follows the narrative of grimdark. That no matter how hard you try to create something better, the forces of the universe whether its chaos or machine spirits will degrade the design and at best it will be "just as good". slapping bigger knee-pads on MK IV and calling it a new version is a bit of a stretch to calling something better.

Also we are arguing semantics about a fictional universe so so don't take anything personal


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Update: I'm more arguing that things have gotten worse from 30k to 40k than I am arguing that things have gotten worse since the dark age of technology.

 Forcast wrote:
Just wondering where the sources are from. There are man portable plasma canons and multimeltas in the heresy...

And I never said that uncovering STCs wouldn't be better, but they would be older designs being produced at a later date, thus still being "older".

It follows the narrative of grimdark. That no matter how hard you try to create something better, the forces of the universe whether its chaos or machine spirits will degrade the design and at best it will be "just as good". slapping bigger knee-pads on MK IV and calling it a new version is a bit of a stretch to calling something better.

Also we are arguing semantics about a fictional universe so so don't take anything personal


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Update: I'm more arguing that things have gotten worse from 30k to 40k than I am arguing that things have gotten worse since the dark age of technology.

I think he is meaning the Non-Shoulder mounted weapons, I do believe that 30k went back to the old 2nd ed style of heavy weapons, and you still see should mounts amongst CSM
So still man portable, just different methods of carry

It's a fluff discrepancy, Chaos haven't had man-portable plasma cannons (Heavy Plasma Guns as they were then called) of any kind since 2nd edition because the power packs and coolant lines were too heavy/bulky. Yet the Heresy era army list has them because whoops.

Use whatever mark of power armor you want. The older ones are ancient relics of the past that are practically worshiped by the Astartes themselves, so they'd give them to veterans or those whose geneseed came from the marine who used it last, or some other variable, depending on your chapter.

 Gashrog wrote:
It's a fluff discrepancy, Chaos haven't had man-portable plasma cannons (Heavy Plasma Guns as they were then called) of any kind since 2nd edition because the power packs and coolant lines were too heavy/bulky. Yet the Heresy era army list has them because whoops.

It probably has something to do with suspensor webs, typically retreating armies would leave behind their heavy weapons unless they could attach suspensors, and those could only be fitted to heavy bolters and missile launchers. Auto cannons and heavy flamers can be fitted to terminator gauntlets, so are also easy to carry. Plus MM and Plasmas are harder to maintain.

Crunch wise all armour is the same, save for terminator and artificer of course. Though in the lore they are quite different.

Mk1: no longer in production, discarded in favour of Mk2.
Mk2: no longer in production, was in process of being phased out when heresy began, was reinstated in some numbers as legions suffered casualties.
Mk3: designed for breaching and close combat, used extensively by Death Guard, Iron Hands and Iron Warriors legions, was reinstated in some numbers during heresy to replace losses.
Mk4: the best suit of armour, is the most advanced by far, was replacing Mk2 when heresy broke out and STC for the armour was lost during or after the heresy. No longer in production.
Mk5: Mostly cobbled together from older suits of armour during the heresy as a makeshift design. No longer in production.
Mk6: Designed during the late days of the heresy and was issued to loyalist legions before the siege of terra. Phased out in favour of the more advanced Mk7. Unclear as to whether still in production, needless to say many suits remain.
Mk7: What loyalists and newly renegade marines are equipped with. More advanced than previous marks and rolled out sometime after the heresy. Still largely in production. Often scavenged by traitor marines.
Mk8: essentially Mk7 with a raised gorget. Still in the experimental stage, is only being produced in limited numbers.

Cptn_Cronssant wrote:
Crunch wise all armour is the same, save for terminator and artificer of course. Though in the lore they are quite different.

Mk1: no longer in production, discarded in favour of Mk2.
Mk2: no longer in production, was in process of being phased out when heresy began, was reinstated in some numbers as legions suffered casualties.
Mk3: designed for breaching and close combat, used extensively by Death Guard, Iron Hands and Iron Warriors legions, was reinstated in some numbers during heresy to replace losses.
Mk4: the best suit of armour, is the most advanced by far, was replacing Mk2 when heresy broke out and STC for the armour was lost during or after the heresy. No longer in production.
Mk5: Mostly cobbled together from older suits of armour during the heresy as a makeshift design. No longer in production.
Mk6: Designed during the late days of the heresy and was issued to loyalist legions before the siege of terra. Phased out in favour of the more advanced Mk7. Unclear as to whether still in production, needless to say many suits remain.
Mk7: What loyalists and newly renegade marines are equipped with. More advanced than previous marks and rolled out sometime after the heresy. Still largely in production. Often scavenged by traitor marines.
Mk8: essentially Mk7 with a raised gorget. Still in the experimental stage, is only being produced in limited numbers.

Mk iv is under rare production by iron hands and others I believe.
Its not a mark that new suits are often seen but a few rare groups did not forget it's secrets.

 jhe90 wrote:

Cptn_Cronssant wrote:
Crunch wise all armour is the same, save for terminator and artificer of course. Though in the lore they are quite different.

Mk1: no longer in production, discarded in favour of Mk2.
Mk2: no longer in production, was in process of being phased out when heresy began, was reinstated in some numbers as legions suffered casualties.
Mk3: designed for breaching and close combat, used extensively by Death Guard, Iron Hands and Iron Warriors legions, was reinstated in some numbers during heresy to replace losses.
Mk4: the best suit of armour, is the most advanced by far, was replacing Mk2 when heresy broke out and STC for the armour was lost during or after the heresy. No longer in production.
Mk5: Mostly cobbled together from older suits of armour during the heresy as a makeshift design. No longer in production.
Mk6: Designed during the late days of the heresy and was issued to loyalist legions before the siege of terra. Phased out in favour of the more advanced Mk7. Unclear as to whether still in production, needless to say many suits remain.
Mk7: What loyalists and newly renegade marines are equipped with. More advanced than previous marks and rolled out sometime after the heresy. Still largely in production. Often scavenged by traitor marines.
Mk8: essentially Mk7 with a raised gorget. Still in the experimental stage, is only being produced in limited numbers.

Mk iv is under rare production by iron hands and others I believe.
Its not a mark that new suits are often seen but a few rare groups did not forget it's secrets.

Interesting. I could imagine the IH doing something like that with their ties to the Mechanicum. Source?

Back in 40K 2nd edition loyalist power armor (ie MK VI and VII) was slightly superior to chaos power armor (ie MK V and older). My memory is a little foggy but I think the loyalists had better secondary systems, like auto senses able to resist flash bang grenades.

Chaos also didn't have access to different technologies like jump packs and land speeders because those hadn't been invented during the Heresy, and their plasma weapons were more erratic than the Imperial versions, along with some other differences.

Most of that has been thrown out of the window with new game lore and the Heresy books from Forgeworld. Now all of that stuff (land speeders, terminator armor, plasma weapons) was better during the Heresy which I think is a stupid change but there you are. That means you probably can't take the old lore about power armor to be true anymore, but at one point MK V and lower was objectively worse than MK VI and newer.