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Should first turn charges be allowed?

There used to be a rule preventing this, and I have heard a ton of different opinions on this subject, and was curious on Dakka's opinion.

(Note: I have no opinion, just curious what everyone things)

Very few things get a first turn charge

There are still rules out there that prevent the old method of first turn charging, but if you have a unit that can move 12" (maybe get a boost that lets you run and charge in the psy phase) and make that 12" charge roll you deserve it.

If you have a unit that can move 12", and a charge roll of 12", they still cannot charge, due to deployment always being more than 24" apart. If you are using proper measurement and deployment, that can never happen.

 Verviedi wrote:
If you have a unit that can move 12", and a charge roll of 12", they still cannot charge, due to deployment always being more than 24" apart. If you are using proper measurement and deployment, that can never happen.

On the basis you are going first, but if the opponent uses scout move or infritrate, they can..

But yeah It is rare to get a first turn charge, unless your opponent puts themselves in a place to let it happened in which case it is their fault (or your own)

Well there are things like the SW Deathpack (can move 12", then run and charge with fleet) that can consistently charge turn 1 if your opponent lines up on the edge of the deployment zone.

Also genestealer cults with the infiltrate + first turn charge if you roll a 6.

There are other ways as well, but those are the two most common that come to mind. It's not an overly rare thing nowadays.

 rabidguineapig wrote:
There are other ways as well, but those are the two most common that come to mind. It's not an overly rare thing nowadays.

Well when you consider the number of possible Factions, Detachments and Formations that do not have this option compared to the ones that do it is rare.

No first turn charge, but if you are going second, and player one scout moves enough or infiltrates, you can assault them.
So it is more of "You can assault turn 1.5 if parameters are met"

It should be hard to line up, and risky, but allowed.

We're WAY past the point were a first turn charge is in any form game breaking. Even if shooting wasn't so broken in comparison, it would still be fine.
With all the possibilities we have now it's still not easy to get a T1 assault.
There is a whole bunch of uncontrollable elements to pulling them off. Charge range is random, terrain can drop initiative, overwatch is a thing and that's just with normal assaults.
Then you start relying on getting psychic powers, getting them off, not mishapping with DS, not scattering too far,disordered charges, random run distance... You get the point.
AND you need certain formations and so on.

The only thing I have a problem with is that there are some pretty big differences between units that can do this.
Some get disorderd charges, others not. Othera get reliable deepstriking, most do not.
There is nothing wrong with the idea, but balance is an issue as always with GW.

So what have you been facing that has made you annoyed enough at 1st turn charges to make you post anyway?

Your tactics may be more of an issue then the ability to do it

First turn charges are fine. They're already pretty limited in how easy they are to get. They require you to either be going 2nd OR for your opponent to have infiltrators or scout moves.

Especially given the strength of shooting, assault needs all the help it can get. Particularly on some of the codices that are very heavily assault focused like Orks, Nids, and BAs. They need more options for turn 1 or 2 charges.

 Roknar wrote:
We're WAY past the point were a first turn charge is in any form game breaking. Even if shooting wasn't so broken in comparison, it would still be fine.
With all the possibilities we have now it's still not easy to get a T1 assault.

Isn't Electro Displacement very easy to get a T1 assault?

As in how could you possibly fail to assault T1 with that deathstar?

You can shoot on the first turn, why should charges be forbidden?

Charges tend to be more devastating, you can multi charge and then stay locked in combat to avoid shooting.

It's an inevitable progression when they made firepower as cheap and insanely powerful as it is now. 40k has become a game of "obliterate the other side by going first." It's not even MAD, because the first strike usually leaves the other side reeling and incapable of retaliating. Then throw Interceptor and Alpha Strike armies into the mix, and you've got a game where two dice rolls has a utterly disproportionate effect on the game, specifically who decides to set up first and Seize the Initiative.

Assault is the strongest form of combat in 40K.
This is usually mitigated by the time it takes to get to Assault.

6th and 7th were dominated by shooting because there was enough shooting to deal with T3 charges, whereas T2 charges had to be mitigated with carefully managed roadbumps and the like.

The issue with T1 charges is that they can't really be cancelled by "enough" shooting, because that would mean tabled in 1.5 turns.

Electro Displacement Deathstar has been ruled to be so crazy overpowered that many competitive tournaments just don't allow it. It's currently the game-breaking build in 40K, only mitigated by these tournament house rules.

Genestealer Cult is apparently manageable, I don't really know why or how, but if it's manageable it's hardly a problem.

morgoth wrote:
Assault is the strongest form of combat in 40K.
This is usually mitigated by the time it takes to get to Assault.

6th and 7th were dominated by shooting because there was enough shooting to deal with T3 charges, whereas T2 charges had to be mitigated with carefully managed roadbumps and the like.

The issue with T1 charges is that they can't really be cancelled by "enough" shooting, because that would mean tabled in 1.5 turns.

Electro Displacement Deathstar has been ruled to be so crazy overpowered that many competitive tournaments just don't allow it. It's currently the game-breaking build in 40K, only mitigated by these tournament house rules.

Genestealer Cult is apparently manageable, I don't really know why or how, but if it's manageable it's hardly a problem.

There is a difference in having a DS charge turn 1 than a couple 5-10man S3/T3 units with a couple pieces of average wargear.

Corsairs also can do this and ITC put a stop to that too. B.c they can DS it also.

Turn 1 charges are fine for units that are meant to be like that, I would LOVE to see Hormagants be able to do this.

morgoth wrote:

 Roknar wrote:
We're WAY past the point were a first turn charge is in any form game breaking. Even if shooting wasn't so broken in comparison, it would still be fine.
With all the possibilities we have now it's still not easy to get a T1 assault.

Isn't Electro Displacement very easy to get a T1 assault?

As in how could you possibly fail to assault T1 with that deathstar?

Electro Displacement is a randomly generated Psychic Discipline, if Lady Luck decides to spit in your face you can take a full Mlv2 Libby Conclave or Wyrdstorm Brotherhood and not get it on any of them. The joy of dice.

My personal opinion is if you can Shoot a unit off the table on the first turn opponents with the ability to Assault you off the table on the first turn is about as fair as it gets.

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

morgoth wrote:

 Roknar wrote:
We're WAY past the point were a first turn charge is in any form game breaking. Even if shooting wasn't so broken in comparison, it would still be fine.
With all the possibilities we have now it's still not easy to get a T1 assault.

Isn't Electro Displacement very easy to get a T1 assault?

As in how could you possibly fail to assault T1 with that deathstar?

Electro Displacement is a randomly generated Psychic Discipline, if Lady Luck decides to spit in your face you can take a full Mlv2 Libby Conclave or Wyrdstorm Brotherhood and not get it on any of them. The joy of dice.

My personal opinion is if you can Shoot a unit off the table on the first turn opponents with the ability to Assault you off the table on the first turn is about as fair as it gets.

Try not getting electro displacement with tigurius in the conclave, I dare you.

In the current competative shooty meta, yes. In the best interest of the game as a whole, no.

why shouldn't it be allowed? if you're chraging in the first turn you're utilizing a specific unit designed for high speed against an enemy who, let's face it, screwed up on deployment. also some armies deopend on melee for their damage. disallowing it is as silly as disallowing shooting in turn 1 because some armies are short ranged.

The only rule I can think of that ever disallowed first turn charges was if you scoute or infiltrated.

For some reason a LOT of people thought that meant no first turn charges. If you move forward, or deploy in the center of the table, I am going to punch those units in the face...

Why should you get to move into rapid fire range or drop pod into my back line and somehow be immune to a swamping tide of Orks?

KDK with allied CSM world eaters I believe.

CSM lord on bike with relic adding 3" to movement running and charges.

Bloodcrushers with banner of blood.

15" move
D6 + 9" charge with fleet.

 rawne2510 wrote:
KDK with allied CSM world eaters I believe.

CSM lord on bike with relic adding 3" to movement running and charges.

Bloodcrushers with banner of blood.

15" move
D6 + 9" charge with fleet.

Don't even need the KDK to do it. Take a World Eaters Butcherhorde, run a Warband with Bikes (or 20 Raptors) and a juggerlord with the 3" relic. 2D6" pre-game move, 15" normal move, 2D6+3" assault move with rerolls. That's 22-42" in the first turn.

And you know what? I'm totally fine with it. Shooting armies had it coming

I'm alright with it as long as it's not "well my guys deepstrike into your deployment zone and assault you", I like at least trying to have a tactical part of the game and deployment actually mattering.

The possibility to charge an enemy unit in turn one due to long movement and lucky charge rolls yes, but charging when arriving in deep strike should not be allowed, no units or formations should have that bonus.

If the enemy is not far away after deployment I don't see a possible reason that doesn't allow a fast unit to charge.

Maybe but with KDK it is 25-30"

Where the butcherhorde may scare people into castling up and see how the dice rolls there is a possibility to fail even if they are on their deployment line.

KDK can´t fail a charge against opponent that sits on the line. and the KDK will have solid back ups to this move close behind. Not sure how much more a butcherhorde has following up after.

As a Guard player, no. First turn charges would only invalidate y army even further.

the only armies i know of that can get a first turn charge is space wolves and world eater traitor legions and even then you need to roll really good

Shadow Strike Kill Team within raven guard detachment.

Any marine army with skyhammer formation.