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So GW released Age of Sigmar a couple of years ago, in which they spent a lot of time reassuring us that it'd all be okay, they'd make all the old stuff work after the transition.

Since then they've released a pile of all-new armies and given the old armies absolutely nothing to let them keep up; you're left with the choice of playing one of the new armies or getting steamrolled (with very few exceptions), and old armies are either having their ranges deleted or getting stuck with 5e-WHFB-vintage models forever.

So when they tell us "Primaris Marines do not invalidate or replace normal Marines" does anyone actually believe them at this point?

 AnomanderRake wrote:
So GW released Age of Sigmar a couple of years ago, in which they spent a lot of time reassuring us that it'd all be okay, they'd make all the old stuff work after the transition.

Since then they've released a pile of all-new armies and given the old armies absolutely nothing to let them keep up; you're left with the choice of playing one of the new armies or getting steamrolled (with very few exceptions), and old armies are either having their ranges deleted or getting stuck with 5e-WHFB-vintage models forever.

So when they tell us "Primaris Marines do not invalidate or replace normal Marines" does anyone actually believe them at this point?

Well Hastings has already stated that for now it's numarines in release schedule with very few regular marines so...Nope. Oldmarines will remain playable but in terms of new releases not expecting any new releases for them.

I'm cautiously optimistic that current marine players will be fine. Here are my reasons:

1. It wasn't that long ago that they released Death Watch, as well as two different Horus Heresy space marine boxes.

It seems strange for them to go through the bother of doing that if they plan on phasing it out in the near future.

2. The sneak peak about the nu-marines seems to make a point of telling us that nu-marines and tactical marines have distinct battlefield roles.

3. The sneak peak about nu-marines also seems to make a point to tell us that nu-marines and vintage marines are going to be in the same chapters (with some possible exceptions). This seems like an expansion of a single faction rather than the creation of an entirely new faction.

4. We know that Death Guard is going to be an 8th edition faction. And again, they just made Thousand Sons into a faction and updated its model range. Why go out of their way to push vintage Chaos Marines if they plan on phasing out vintage marines?

I think eventually all marines will just be absorbed by Primaris Marines - one rule set, and older models simply count as Primaris marines, with all new SM releases going to the Primaris line.

 Luciferian wrote:
I think eventually all marines will just be absorbed by Primaris Marines - one rule set, and older models simply count as Primaris marines, with all new SM releases going to the Primaris line.

But this doesn't make any sense.

Why update and push vintage chaos marines, then?

Yeah I do, because the original rumours confirmed a few Marine releases in future, not many but still some life left in the range.

I mean their all going to disappear eventually, come on man..

Numarines will be a line like centurions with killer rules - my expectation is command point activated bonus powers - and everyone will want to add a few squads because, well, the new primaris characters will have even better bonuses and these spiritual lieges or, errm, "saviours" of mankind, errm, the Imperium will WIN together better than old stunty mahweens.. Also, get ready for the new primaris limousine/landraider/mastodon hybrid super-kill tank and thunderprime gunship, not to mention primaris psykers - not to be confused with old stunty Imp primaris psykers - as well as primo-wargear, primo-pods and primo-emplacements.

Here is what I think:

Age of Emperor sounds a whole lot like Horus Heresy 2.0.

I think it's likely that GW is having a difficult time coming up with new ideas for models for the vintage line.

However, they also likely see a possible market in porting some of the concepts of Horus Heresy into the main game.

So what I think we might end up with is two distinct ways of playing marines:

You could either play traditional 40k marines

or

You could play the Horus Heresy reminiscent nu-marines.

Or a mixture of both.

If they rework grav to make it more like graviton in the 30k game, then there you go. That will tell you everything you need to know.

 Traditio wrote:
I'm cautiously optimistic that current marine players will be fine. Here are my reasons:

1. It wasn't that long ago that they released Death Watch, as well as two different Horus Heresy space marine boxes.

It seems strange for them to go through the bother of doing that if they plan on phasing it out in the near future.

And how are the Dark Elf/Wood Elf infantry boxes released in 8e doing in AoS, I wonder? How about the Tomb Kings' sphinx-thingamajigger?

2. The sneak peak about the nu-marines seems to make a point of telling us that nu-marines and tactical marines have distinct battlefield roles.

Having not seen full rules/points/options I can't say for sure. What I can say is that everything they said about how the old armies would carry forward in the transition from WHFB to AoS was bulls***, so I'm not inclined to give them the benefit of the doubt.

3. The sneak peak about nu-marines also seems to make a point to tell us that nu-marines and vintage marines are going to be in the same chapters (with some possible exceptions). This seems like an expansion of a single faction rather than the creation of an entirely new faction.

It seems more like they're setting up to replace old Marines with nu-marines by making them compete directly in every setting, you mean?

4. We know that Death Guard is going to be an 8th edition faction. And again, they just made Thousand Sons into a faction and updated its model range. Why go out of their way to push vintage Chaos Marines if they plan on phasing out vintage marines?

They gave Death Guard as an example of things Chaos gets that are equivalent to the nu-marines in the FAQ. As for the Thousand Sons I shall reiterate: what, exactly, happened to all the 8e releases for elves, the Empire, Tomb Kings, Dwarves...? They got a half-a**es patch pdf and have since been ignored or deleted.

 Traditio wrote:


But this doesn't make any sense.

Why update and push vintage chaos marines, then?

Well, I hate to be a downer when you're being so positive and all, but they do that kind of stuff. They released all kinds of expensive models and books leading up to the End Times of WFB, then wiped it all out in a single blow. Even the Gathering Storm stuff is somewhat of a last cash in on 7th edition 40k.

Also, it's likely that they'll be updating both the CSM and SM lines relatively slowly, starting with the Deathwatch and Primaris units they've teased and going from there. So this is actually the smartest decision for them - they can gradually roll out new lines that ultimately make the old models obsolete at their leisure, while providing the carrot of better rules for adapting the new marines. In the meantime players can use their current armies, so they're not up in arms about anything getting abandoned or squatted right off the bat.

AnomanderRake:

For a moment, let's suppose that what you are saying is correct. Then why would GW tell us that there will only be two new factions at launch?

And why would only vintage marines be in danger of being phased out?

Shouldn't we expect nu-Tau, nu-Adepta Sororitas, nu-newcrons, etc?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And for the record, let me say:

If you guys are genuinely concerned that they're trying to invalidate the old stuff, there is a clear way to deal with that:

BOYCOTT THE NU-MARINES.

I think it's woprth remember that AOS had sucesses and failures, and that GW was almost certainly watching those closely. there are also some key differances between WFB and 40k. not the least of which is 40k has a MUCH larger fanbase of the SETTING. (I know lots of people who never have touched eaither game, but read the 40k novels. the HH novels are easily the most important. which might be why GW's bringing in aspects of 30k into 40k)
given ALL the previews of the new Marines have them wearing colours of current chapters I'd say GW's plan isn't to make any grand massive changes that way. now Old Marines might not get many new toys but, as a Marine Collector... so long as they keep the current ones in production...
I'm fine with that. the Marine line is honestly kinda bloated, they don't really NEED new stuff. that said, I predict Marines will still see some support from HH box games. new dreadnoughts, old mks of power armor, that sort of thing

 AnomanderRake wrote:
So when they tell us "Primaris Marines do not invalidate or replace normal Marines" does anyone actually believe them at this point?

Technically they are not invalidated, you can still use them.

I wouldn't be expecting any updates, as the storyline progresses forward I think you will find that the Primaris Marines will be the main replacement for chapters.

Yes the old boxes of marines will be on the shelf, yes you can still buy the older marks from Forgeworld, but really don't expect new stuff for them.

that said shoulder pads and heads will be mix and matchable still so thats good. the new Marines are BASICLY death watch minis in terms of scale changes I suspect.

 Traditio wrote:
AnomanderRake:

For a moment, let's suppose that what you are saying is correct. Then why would GW tell us that there will only be two new factions at launch?

And why would only vintage marines be in danger of being phased out?

Shouldn't we expect nu-Tau, nu-Adepta Sororitas, nu-newcrons, etc?

There were only two new factions at launch of AoS, that doesn't seem to have stopped them from utterly forgetting about any pre-reboot stuff as they moved on. (Seriously. Two Sigmarine books before they remembered there were normal humans in the setting once?)

And as for nu-otherarmies the way AoS has gone some armies have nu-replacements in totality (dwarves), some have nu-replacements in spirit with no relation in aesthetic (elves), some are just getting swept under the rug (the Empire). I wouldn't expect to see nu-Tau, I'd expect to see more and more battlesuits while anything that wasn't a battlesuit got forgotten; and I'd definitely expect to see the Guard just become irrelevant.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Traditio wrote:
...Age of Emperor sounds a whole lot like Horus Heresy 2.0...

Thus far it's been the exact opposite. HH has been an effort to fix problems with the current system without drastically overhauling it. 8e looks like an effort to drastically overhaul the current system with no indication it's actually going to fix anything. HH has kept everyone in the loop on model releases and attempted to update bits of the game's artistic history. 8e is already dumping a new batch of stuff for the most updated army in the game into the mix while almost no vehicles have been updated since 3e and while Aspects are still in Finecast, Sisters are still metal, and Guardsmen, Boyz, and Guardians are still ancient.

 Traditio wrote:
I'm cautiously optimistic that current marine players will be fine. Here are my reasons:

1. It wasn't that long ago that they released Death Watch, as well as two different Horus Heresy space marine boxes.

It seems strange for them to go through the bother of doing that if they plan on phasing it out in the near future.

2. The sneak peak about the nu-marines seems to make a point of telling us that nu-marines and tactical marines have distinct battlefield roles.

3. The sneak peak about nu-marines also seems to make a point to tell us that nu-marines and vintage marines are going to be in the same chapters (with some possible exceptions). This seems like an expansion of a single faction rather than the creation of an entirely new faction.

4. We know that Death Guard is going to be an 8th edition faction. And again, they just made Thousand Sons into a faction and updated its model range. Why go out of their way to push vintage Chaos Marines if they plan on phasing out vintage marines?

1) Like they released tomb kings and kept them around...no wait. They dissapeared.
2) For now. When they have released tons of new units will they have? Once they have enough new units to cover all the bases that goes again.
3) Easily conned away. Old marines die in battle, don't get replaced.
4) Apart from them being 2 different lines so one doesn't have to follow other again...It's not like GW doesn't have history of *cough*tomb king*cough* releasing new units and within few years withdrawing. Remember units gets most of their sales they will get in first few months.

tneva82 wrote:

 Traditio wrote:
I'm cautiously optimistic that current marine players will be fine. Here are my reasons:

1. It wasn't that long ago that they released Death Watch, as well as two different Horus Heresy space marine boxes.

It seems strange for them to go through the bother of doing that if they plan on phasing it out in the near future.

2. The sneak peak about the nu-marines seems to make a point of telling us that nu-marines and tactical marines have distinct battlefield roles.

3. The sneak peak about nu-marines also seems to make a point to tell us that nu-marines and vintage marines are going to be in the same chapters (with some possible exceptions). This seems like an expansion of a single faction rather than the creation of an entirely new faction.

4. We know that Death Guard is going to be an 8th edition faction. And again, they just made Thousand Sons into a faction and updated its model range. Why go out of their way to push vintage Chaos Marines if they plan on phasing out vintage marines?

1) Like they released tomb kings and kept them around...no wait. They dissapeared.
2) For now. When they have released tons of new units will they have? Once they have enough new units to cover all the bases that goes again.
3) Easily conned away. Old marines die in battle, don't get replaced.
4) Apart from them being 2 different lines so one doesn't have to follow other again...It's not like GW doesn't have history of *cough*tomb king*cough* releasing new units and within few years withdrawing. Remember units gets most of their sales they will get in first few months.

Better than models from other games that look good but useless on the table, or models that look bad but is forced to be used on the table.

I am somewhat hopeful that they will keep support for the current Space Marine range, but at the same time not really expecting it. This is due to a variety of factors:

1.) The Leadership under Rountree has so far been a *largely* good one, but it has had several hiccups along the way, to which I attribute the Nu-Marines to. However Rountree has yet to reverse any of the damages done to the old WHFB factions, so there's no precedent on him actually changing the course for this. Still though, the Rountree era has seen the return of a lot of things the fanbase was clamoring for, so there is hope, however small a shred it is.

2.) Space Marines, unlike the Empire, is GW's most popular line and the most heavily invested. Tomb Kings, while having some updated models, were still largely running with a line dating back to 6th edition and didn't really have a trademarkable identity. Worse still for Bretonnia, where they flat out didn't have new models comparable with the rest of the line at all (meaning a complete redo was necessary). This might be a factor in for GW to keep up support for normal Space Marines, at least for the foreseeable future, as dropping them a year in like they did with the other Order factions will definitely hurt their bottom line. Plus it also means nullifying a huge amount of their investment in the plastic HH line and other models. On the other hand, the pure saturation of everything space marine in model form for the past 20 years or so means that even the tertiary collector has space marines in some form. It's likely that this move is done because the Horus Heresy marines, which was expected to sell a lot, didn't quite make their internal projections, showing that even if they give us the holy grail of space marine kits, we as a consumer just isn't buying them as much anymore.

3.) One of the primary reasons that GW started making all these weird names for their factions is because they lost the lawsuit, especially since it was pointed out that they can't trademark something like Space Marine. The name Primaris Marines and the new look might not just be an attempt at selling more marine models, but also folding in their most iconic line into something far more defensible in a court of law.

So it could go either way for me, leaning towards "Oldmarines will be the new Squats" mentality. However, after stewing on this for a bit, this might not be a bad thing;

One of my most iconic memories of the game is playing a small, skirmish game with only 10 space marines and a dreadnought against a horde of tyranids. Such a thing would be laughable today, as very rarely do people play with such small armies now. As Galef said in the other thread, this could be a good way to lower the overall model count for people getting into the game, and give them more chances to personalize their individual models. The recent Gladius hoo-ha has caused people to mass (not necessarily buy mind you) Marines in excess, making them use horde tactics more commonly associated with Imperial Guard than Space Marines.

Another thing to note is that while they mentioned that other chapters can use Nu-Marines, they didn't make mention variation rules (not so much Chapter Tactics as more like "Wolf Nu Marines" and so forth). To me that sounds like they might actually be trying to cut down on the bazillions of variations for Space Marine chapters and condense it into one codex.

These, along with GW's idea of using 8th as a fresh slate, could be them trying to undo years of flanderization. Like the new rules, it may simply be a hard pill for us to swallow, but the alternative might have been the same blindsightedness that lead into the monster that was 7th edition.

Mind you none of this means that they did it the *right* way, I still think they screwed up with the concept, but at least I can see some reasoning in the madness. And I'm still preparing that open space on the Display Case of No Return for my existing marines.

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:So it could go either way for me, leaning towards "Oldmarines will be the new Squats" mentality. However, after stewing on this for a bit, this might not be a bad thing;

Of course it would be a bad thing. Marines players would have the choice between purchasing an entirely new army or dropping out of the game altogether.

And players who drop out of the game altogether have no reason to purchase any of GW's products. Not paint. Not rulebooks. Not models. Nothing.

And if people with non-marine armies suddenly experience a drop in the number of possible gaming partners...well, I'm sure you can see where I'm going with this.

People are really in denial about this being replaced thing. Of course they are being replaced also in lore. After a long enough time the old marines will probably go extinct or near extinct since its a waste of time making inferior marines when you have nu-marines. Eventually all the old marine chapters and sub factions will be replaced with nu-marine models and in lore as well. This is why I'm either burying my small deathwatch army I just started building or giving it away. Never giving GW any more dirty marine money either.

Thing is, the greatest sting with this move is that GW is catering towards new players. So yeah, all you oldbloods and I are being thrown under the bus for the sake of the future of the game, so voting with our dollar isn't really going to work since, to be very honest, at this point GW doesn't care about our dollars anymore. Why cater to the people screaming for your blood for the past 2 decades when there's literally dozens of new generations to start over again with, especially with a clean slate?

Granted though, for the sake of the game and company's longevity, this isn't a bad thing. Only reason we perceive it as such is because we're the only ones left out in the cold.

I would have had no problem with it if they didn't introduce the dumb primaris space marine lore. If they just said hey these are advancements on existing marines that Gulliman had been working on and GW say they want to make true marines cool. I could get on board with that.

It's the fact that they are better in lore and exist solely to show up the old marines that is my biggest problem. It's a very show boat donkey-cave thing to do.

I got lucky I only bought a corvus, kill team, and librarian and the codex. I could have gotten burned way worse. Last year I heard rumors about nu marines and decided not to go all in with a huge army. Good thing I didn't.

I barely even liked regular marines I only liked the Deathwatch. I've now learned my lesson to NEVER EVER buy a marine model again. I know that's not going to stop the nu marines from succeeding in sales, but eh my choice. Also I think Gulliman is an donkey-cave near mary sue like character so the fact that he came back with nu-marines is definitely not my cup of tea.

I'll stick to xenos or even non-marine chaos if they ever release anything new for chaos.

I do have a question:

I know for a fact that various of the old 8th edition WFB factions have rules for their units.

I assume that they have points costs, etc. in the general's handbooks?

There's going to be whining no matter what GW does.

One sure thing though, those nu-marines and associated fluff (primarchs, new kit from Mars, ...) are adding some serious epicness to 40K as well as progressing the setting and that's just great.

About the old players: so what if you have to play your marines as proxy 10 years from now. who cares. not even you.

I, for one, welcome our new numarines overlords.

Also, as a Xenos player, I don't like Space Marines with their old ugly faces and armors, so anything new and more HH will definitely be nicer to play against I guess.

morgoth wrote:About the old players: so what if you have to play your marines as proxy 10 years from now. who cares. not even you.

Will that even be an option?

Because I can already hear the disputes from the new WAAC types 10 years from now:

"No, see, you don't understand. Your marine should be half an inch taller. So no, LoS isn't obscured."

 AnomanderRake wrote:
So GW released Age of Sigmar a couple of years ago, in which they spent a lot of time reassuring us that it'd all be okay, they'd make all the old stuff work after the transition.

Since then they've released a pile of all-new armies and given the old armies absolutely nothing to let them keep up; you're left with the choice of playing one of the new armies or getting steamrolled (with very few exceptions), and old armies are either having their ranges deleted or getting stuck with 5e-WHFB-vintage models forever.

So when they tell us "Primaris Marines do not invalidate or replace normal Marines" does anyone actually believe them at this point?

Literally all of chaos is still pretty darn strong, even without DoT or BoK, Savage orks got new rules and are crazy, beast claw raiders(or w/e they were in fantasy) got new rules and are crazy, treekin got new rules and new models and are crazy, flesh eater courts are a bit niche but still usable, people run goblins all the time. It's about 60/40 didn't/did get updated(or competitive build).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Traditio wrote:
I do have a question:

I know for a fact that various of the old 8th edition WFB factions have rules for their units.

I assume that they have points costs, etc. in the general's handbooks?

yes

 Traditio wrote:
I do have a question:

I know for a fact that various of the old 8th edition WFB factions have rules for their units.

I assume that they have points costs, etc. in the general's handbooks?

according to the description of it the general's handbook includes "Points values for each Warscroll and Warscroll Battalion from Battletomes and Grand Alliance books available in the range at time of printing;"

so the answer would seem to be "yes"


one thing to keep in mind is that they're not "blowing up the world" like they did with end times and AOS. so there's less reason to expect factions to be "squatted" will old school Marines take a bit of a back seat? maybe, but on the other hand, even in the pictures showing them off we saw Primaris Marines mixed in with normal Marines. So I think that'll be the Norm at least for the immediate future.

 Traditio wrote:

morgoth wrote:About the old players: so what if you have to play your marines as proxy 10 years from now. who cares. not even you.

Will that even be an option?

Because I can already hear the disputes from the new WAAC types 10 years from now:

"No, see, you don't understand. Your marine should be half an inch taller. So no, LoS isn't obscured."

I'm hoping that true LoS will be gone in ten years.
It really isn't conductive to fast and fun play anyway.

All this is about the elephant in the room. Intellectual property.. the tomb Kings and bretonians went away because knights and skeletons are not defensible as intellectual property. The same goes for the Dwarfs. If you notice they stop using the term Space Marine and are using other terms. The chapterhouse lawsuit hit them hard. It's why I have a tyrannocyte and not a spore pod.

The Warhammer 40K intellectual property is much more sound then Warhammer fantasy battles. It's much less of a generic setting. Still I would be surprised if they don't make big changes to the naming and look of the models. It's part of why they have flying blimp dwarvesin AOS now.

Why is everyone up in arms about Death Watch? They will clearly be Primaris Death Watch soon, meaning they will have the same role they used too, with support from the still super awesome old marine Death Watch.