Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

http://www.3plusplus.net/2017/05/grey-knights-8th-edition-leaks/

The three Santic Powers are:
1. Purge Soul (d6+ leadership - enemy leadership - enemy d6 mortal wounds on a unit)
2. Gate of Infinity (move a unit up to 9" away from an enemy)
3. Hammerhand (+1 to wound rolls)

Paladins have 3 wounds, and hit on 2's in melee, and have 3 attacks base

Cannot use NuMarines.

Banner carrying unit and apothecary are 1 model units that have radius based powers

Terminators still don't have access to storm shields

Nemesis force Halberd: +1 / -2 / D3 - 0 points
Nemesis force Sword: +0 / -3 / D3 - 0 points
Nemesis Falchions: +0 / -2 / D3. equipped /w 2 gets you 1 extra attack.
Nemesis Warding Stave: +2 / -1 / D3. Add 1 to invuln save in the fight phase. - 0 points
Nemesis Daemon Hammer: x2 / -3 / 3. Subtract 1 from hit. - 13 points

A paladin with 2 falchions within 6" of a paladin ancient, will make 6 attacks base on the charge.

Apothecary auto-heals D3 wounds every turn. If a model was slain, on a 4+ he can bring it back to life.

I have been pretty happy with how 8th has been looking, but I am not happy with all these changes.

3" purifying flame for my Purifiers? That seems really short.

Only 12" range on a heavy incinerator? This used to be torrent (18"ish if positioned right)

No primaris marines changes what I am ordering on Saturday, no starter set for me now.


I am exited about SB being Rapid fire 2, thats a nice shooting boost.

I don't get why they nerfed power armored grey Knights, no more shunt, and purifiers have 1 less attack while costing more per guy. Also, our terminators cost 18 points more than normal marine ones.

Seems like we've been nerfed.

Also, a purifier costs as much as a space marine terminator, and a grey knight terminators costs more than a custodian.

If I can't have my dreadknights carry the army anymore I might just stop playing grey Knights altogether after this. GW clearly has no clue how to make these guys work, seeing as they've been nerfed several times for 3 editions straight.

After reading all the rules my GK will stay in the basement.

Overall the changes seems like most shuffeling and a lot of the flavor in upgrades and powers have been taken away.

From a competetive point, they seem worse than ever. A big nerf in the main rules being that you can only cast a psycic power once, not once per psyker (except the lesser version of smite). internal and external balance still seems like a issue.

Hopefully they will be fleshed out when the codex arrive in several years.

My 2 salty cents...

Not encouraging..... to say the least

No more turn one deep striking for the whole army =D

Enjoy getting tabled turn one.

Wow you guys are pessimists. I think we actually got buffed. Our stuff was always going to be pricey: we're elite! We still have shunt on Interceptors, it's just a bit different now. Better in my opinion. Dreads can't shunt and are pricier, but they actually generate off Sanctic now. Put Gate of Infinity on them.

Psilencers seem like they're buffed now and they're cheap compared to the others. Dreadknight Psycannon might still edge it out. Force weapons across the board were buffed and all but the hammer are free. That's huge! Paladins are only like 9 PPM more than Terminators. They get +1 W and A and they generate psychic powers.

Basically, it looks like the power in our Codex shifted. We're not Dreadknight spam anymore nor do we wanna just parade Purifiers in Rhinos.

Think about a Vanguard Detachment. Skip the troops. Grab Paladins, Apothecaries and sprinkle Interceptors and Dreads. Seems great!

If we don't wanna stay mono, you could field Paladins with Centurions and and Assassins. There is some huge potential here.

Grey Knights have less weapon options for range, and those options are inferior.

Unless you're fighting Daemons, it seems like Grey Knights are just an overcosted subset of normal marines.

It's fine. I was on the fence about expanding my GK force. I will focus on my own homebrew chapter of ultras instead. I can always take Draigo by himself at the cost of 1CP and get the best model in the codex.

 Marmatag wrote:
Grey Knights have less weapon options for range, and those options are inferior.

Unless you're fighting Daemons, it seems like Grey Knights are just an overcosted subset of normal marines.

It's fine. I was on the fence about expanding my GK force. I will focus on my own homebrew chapter of ultras instead. I can always take Draigo by himself at the cost of 1CP and get the best model in the codex.

Draigo is a HQ and you can take him in any Imperial Detachment as a HQ choice from what I'm reading in the leak of the core rules. He just has to have at least one faction keyword in common with the rest of the detachment.

That said, I think Paladins and Interceptors are actually really good now.

 Audustum wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
Grey Knights have less weapon options for range, and those options are inferior.

Unless you're fighting Daemons, it seems like Grey Knights are just an overcosted subset of normal marines.

It's fine. I was on the fence about expanding my GK force. I will focus on my own homebrew chapter of ultras instead. I can always take Draigo by himself at the cost of 1CP and get the best model in the codex.

Draigo is a HQ and you can take him in any Imperial Detachment as a HQ choice from what I'm reading in the leak of the core rules. He just has to have at least one faction keyword in common with the rest of the detachment.

That said, I think Paladins and Interceptors are actually really good now.

It's tough to gauge things right now because the point costs haven't really settled in yet. it's when you start determining the relative cost of bringing paladins, versus what the matched play point size is, where it starts to go down hill.

You're looking at a sizable point investment to field paladins. Don't get me wrong - I like them - i have paladin conversions in progress right now - but i don't know for certain if they'll be feasible.

All in all, I'm not seeing enough to define Grey Knights as an army. The cost of bringing grey knights versus another faction has to be considered. BA/SW will be better in assault. SM will be better in shooting. What role to Grey Knights fill?

 Marmatag wrote:

 Audustum wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
Grey Knights have less weapon options for range, and those options are inferior.

Unless you're fighting Daemons, it seems like Grey Knights are just an overcosted subset of normal marines.

It's fine. I was on the fence about expanding my GK force. I will focus on my own homebrew chapter of ultras instead. I can always take Draigo by himself at the cost of 1CP and get the best model in the codex.

Draigo is a HQ and you can take him in any Imperial Detachment as a HQ choice from what I'm reading in the leak of the core rules. He just has to have at least one faction keyword in common with the rest of the detachment.

That said, I think Paladins and Interceptors are actually really good now.

It's tough to gauge things right now because the point costs haven't really settled in yet. it's when you start determining the relative cost of bringing paladins, versus what the matched play point size is, where it starts to go down hill.

You're looking at a sizable point investment to field paladins. Don't get me wrong - I like them - i have paladin conversions in progress right now - but i don't know for certain if they'll be feasible.

All in all, I'm not seeing enough to define Grey Knights as an army. The cost of bringing grey knights versus another faction has to be considered. BA/SW will be better in assault. SM will be better in shooting. What role to Grey Knights fill?

Your points are well raised. Looking at it right now, it looks like our specialty will be access to variable and mortal wounds. Grey Knight weapons have a plethora of access to D3 and 2 wound profiles. We also have one of the most powerful psychic powers if you look at what they turned Purge Soul into. It's random, but I'm thinking it's going to be the Psychic Shriek of 8th Edition. Every single non-vehicle unit in lists can also cast Smite in some form.

Also, am I reading this wrong? The Grey Knight section says we just take normal Space Marine Librarians but they get Nemesis Warding Staves, grenades, banishment and Daemon Hunter, but otherwise we follow the Space Marine datasheet? Because Space Marine Librarians are totally allowed to take Storm Shields. Do we finally have access to them on somebody who isn't Draigo?

Edit: Also looks like they still generate powers from Librarius.

Maybe I'm just crazy, but I think large, pure GK armies are now garbage:

See page 215, matched play rules
Psychic focus - Each psychic power (except smite) can only be attempted once per turn, rather than once per psyker per turn

This does not make any sense... We pay premium points for each unit to have access to the santic table and then only 3 powers total from the whole army each turn? (Aside from smite which is nerfed to hell from Grey Knight psykers)

This does not scale well at all.

Its fine if your taking only a few squads in a small battle, but what about big games with 10-15 GK units all trying to cast their powers?

Every way I look at this it seems like a terribly thought out rule from the perspective of GKs.

Wait, what? What's the point of a psyker army that can't cast spells?

Psychic focus - Each psychic power (except smite) can only be attempted once per turn, rather than once per psyker per turn

That is really bizarre alright and a good spot.

 Marmatag wrote:
Wait, what? What's the point of a psyker army that can't cast spells?

Free force weapons on our terminators. We cost less 1:1than marine ones and get an extra D3 dmg.

Right, but again, we're talking about an army that doesn't have access to the tools that BA, SW, SM, and DA have.

It does appear, though, that with Hammerhand, the usefulness of a daemon hammer just dropped.

 Marmatag wrote:
Right, but again, we're talking about an army that doesn't have access to the tools that BA, SW, SM, and DA have.

It does appear, though, that with Hammerhand, the usefulness of a daemon hammer just dropped.

not really, with the rule of 1 a deamon hammer means less need to cast it..

I mean, your nemesis force halberds will be wounding on 3's against a lot of stuff... with hammerhand that becomes 2's. Whereas the daemon hammer, because of the rule of 1, wouldn't benefit in that scenario.

But I digress.

Gate of Infinity seems interesting.

Librarian unit casts Gate of infinity on another unit.
Librarian is left behind.

???


Automatically Appended Next Post:
One plus, Draigo is back to an HQ choice.

On a less pessimistic and more tounge-in-cheek note:

It doesn't look like their is anything stoppiing PAGK or terminators from taking the dreadknight close combat weapons.

For example a Grandmaster (or anyone for that matter) can take anything from the Grey Knight Melee weapons list, which contains all 3 dreadknight weapon choices. I could give him a Greatsword for 10 points for 8str, -3AP, D6Dmg on all his attacks! Even the dreadfists are an option.

What do you guys think, oversight or intended? I will be abusing it either way.

Edit: Also here is some good evidence in the fluff:

Spartacus wrote:
On a less pessimistic and more tounge-in-cheek note:

It doesn't look like their is anything stoppiing PAGK or terminators from taking the dreadknight close combat weapons.

For example a Grandmaster (or anyone for taht matter) can take anything from the Grey Knight Melee weapons list, which contains all 3 dreadknight weapon choices. I could give him a Greatsword for 10 points for 8str, -3AP, D6Dmg on all his attacks! Even the dreadfists are an option.

What do you guys think, oversight or intended? I will be abusing it either way.

Totally an oversight but also totally, totally worth it.

Spartacus wrote:


It doesn't look like their is anything stoppiing PAGK or terminators from taking the dreadknight close combat weapons.

Edit: Also here is some good evidence in the fluff:

This is glorious. Made my day.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So what I'm gathering from these leaks so far is that our units seem to be plenty powerful on the whole, but absurdly expensive? Does anyone think this will be mitigated by an increasing scale of points leading to larger games across the board?

 Aetare wrote:

Spartacus wrote:


It doesn't look like their is anything stoppiing PAGK or terminators from taking the dreadknight close combat weapons.

Edit: Also here is some good evidence in the fluff:

This is glorious. Made my day.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So what I'm gathering from these leaks so far is that our units seem to be plenty powerful on the whole, but absurdly expensive? Does anyone think this will be mitigated by an increasing scale of points leading to larger games across the board?

Everyone's prices went up while ours stayed the same. I expect the average game to be 2500-3000 points, and as such we will be packing a lot of heat.

Anyone else notice that GK now have access to Psychic Servitors?

SJ

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Anyone else notice that GK now have access to Psychic Servitors?

SJ

there are definatly a few cases of unintentional stuff like that causing things to be intreasting

I'm a bit worried, terminators finally got the boost they need and then they add a boatload of d3+ damage stuff to the game, and a lot of armour negating ones too. I have a feeling our paladins are going to drop faster than ever.

 cosmicsoybean wrote:
I'm a bit worried, terminators finally got the boost they need and then they add a boatload of d3+ damage stuff to the game, and a lot of armour negating ones too. I have a feeling our paladins are going to drop faster than ever.

a lotta that stuff though was heavy weapons that where killing termies anyway. lascannons etc

Audustum wrote:
Wow you guys are pessimists. I think we actually got buffed. Our stuff was always going to be pricey: we're elite! We still have shunt on Interceptors, it's just a bit different now. Better in my opinion. Dreads can't shunt and are pricier, but they actually generate off Sanctic now. Put Gate of Infinity on them.

Psilencers seem like they're buffed now and they're cheap compared to the others. Dreadknight Psycannon might still edge it out. Force weapons across the board were buffed and all but the hammer are free. That's huge! Paladins are only like 9 PPM more than Terminators. They get +1 W and A and they generate psychic powers.

Basically, it looks like the power in our Codex shifted. We're not Dreadknight spam anymore nor do we wanna just parade Purifiers in Rhinos.

Think about a Vanguard Detachment. Skip the troops. Grab Paladins, Apothecaries and sprinkle Interceptors and Dreads. Seems great!

If we don't wanna stay mono, you could field Paladins with Centurions and and Assassins. There is some huge potential here.

Exactly.
IMO gk were never supposed to be stand alone. The are special ops. Love the vanguard. That is where I am going to build a more diverse imperial army and take advantage of a deep collection.
Get out of the old boxes and take off the blinders.
Think about the hobby more the about winning games.

Little battle I played last night if anyone is interested, all from memory so bear with me. Images are to scale as best as I was able, but I'm no artist obviously.

1000 pts GK vs Tau

Tau list:

1 x Ethereal
2 x 5 Fire Warriors
2 x 5 Pathfinders
1 x 3 Crisis Battlesuits (2 Plasma guns, 2 missile pods, burst cannon, fusion gun)
2 x 10 Kroot
1 x Shaper
1 x Riptide

My list:

1 x Grandmaster
3 x 3 Paladins (mix of swords, halberds and some falchions)
1 x 6 Interceptors (halberds)
1 x 7 Interceptors (also halberds)
Everyone had storm bolters

We played plain old kill points, with secondary objectives, just to get used to the core mechanics. No detachments just bring whatever, but matched play rules otherwise. I won the roll and decided to go second. He castled up in one corner and I deployed 1 paldin squad and both interceptor squads, holding the rest back for deep strike.



Image is large, open it in a new window while reading the blow-by-blow.

Turn 1 Tau
My tau friend infiltrated in his 20 kroot and the shaper, and fired at the interceptors killing 4. his riptide and friends advanced and fired smart missiles at the interceptors also, killing one from the smaller squad. All 3 kroot units tried to assault and I was able to fell many with overwatch, he was forced to declare against multiple units due to tight spacing. He made the charge with one of his units and proceeded to wipe out the rest of the larger squad of interceptors! In reply the other unit of interceptor killed enough to force the rest to flee.

Turn 1 GK
I brought in all of my deep strikers around the Riptide(underneath the platform), shunted with the remaining Interceptors, and cast gate of infinity with my other Paladins, focusing on trying to annihilate it. In the psychic phase, purge soul from the Grandmaster failed to cast, smite from 2 of the Paladin squads stripped 2 Riptide wounds, and the interceptors used smite to kill one Fire Warrior. Storm Bolter fire killed 3 Kroot, 2 Pathfinders and 4 Fire Warriors. In the assault phase, 2 of the squads of Paladins successfully charged the Riptide. The Tau reserved overwatch supporting fire for my Grandmaster, who saved poorly losing 2 of his wounds. The Paladin squads battered the Riptide, leaving it with 5 Wounds remaining.

Turn 2 Tau
The Crisis suits came in on the Tau's right flank while the kroot chased the interceptors. Markerlights lit up the Paladins. Riptide flew out of combat and turned to blast one of the offending Paladin Squads, demolishing them all. The crisis suits then proceeded to kill 2 Paladins from the next squad (ouch). Kroot shooting killed another interceptor. The rest of shooting against the Paladins was ineffectual. The Kroot charged the Interceptors and lost 1 to overwatch fire, however made the long charge. Another Kroot was killed in the combat but they held their nerve.

Turn 2 GK
The Grey Knights charged forward. In the psychic phase one Fire warrior and one Kroot were killed by smite, the rest failing to cast. However the Grandmaster cast Purge Soul on the Riptide, rolling a 6. My friend rolled a 1 resulting in a difference of 6!!! 6 Mortal wounds would have been enough to finish the monster, however the Ethereal has used his ability last turn to give all Tau in the vicinity a 6+ FNP (effectively). He rolled a dice for each wound and managed 2 6's, which kept the damned thing alive with 1 wound remaining! In the shooting phase only 1 Pathfinder was killed, thanks to more 6+ FNP rolls. The last remaining Paladin tried to assault the riptide but was just short on his assault roll, but untouched by the huge swathe of overwatch. The other Paladins attempted another charge at the Fire Warriors, but were also short on charge range unfortunately. In the fight phase 1 more Kroot was slain.

Turn 3 Tau
The Tau Ethereal and Riptide hunkered back into their corner. Riptide was now only hitting on 6's, so did no damage to the chasing Paladin, however the Crisis suits blasted him easily with missile pods. The rest of the Tau were unable to wound the Gransmaster or Paladins. The Kroot Shaper and a lone fire warrior charged the interceptors. In the fight phase, Interceptors continued their bad run. losing one of their number while doing only a single wound to the Shaper in return.

Turn 3 GK
The remaining Terminators pursued the retreating Tau as best they could. The grandmaster again attempted to finish off the Riptitde with Purge Soul, but the roll off was indecisive. Smite claimed another Fire warrior, who were then finished off by Storm Bolter fire. Attempting to charge the crisis suits from a distance, the Grandmaster was unable to catch anyone. Yet another Interceptor was slain by the Kroot, and they could manage nothing in reply.

Turn 4 Tau
The Crisis suits focussed on the Grandmaster (lit up by marker lights) and cut him down with plasma and missile fire netting the Warlord kill for the Tau. Riptide was again unable to hit anything due to the damage it had suffered and the 2 surviving Pathfinders of squad B charged forward out of the ruins to block the path of the advancing Paladins, however their guns couldn't punch through Terminator armour. The interceptors again failed to do anything and the combat with the Kroot continued to stalemate.

Turn 4 GK
The last Terminators fired at the Riptide, and were rewarded when it finally toppled over. They crushed the 2 Pathfinders who were blocking their progress towards the Ethereal. The interceptors lost another of their number, leaving the Justicar on his own and starting to panic.

Turn 5 Tau
The Ethereal ran to safety, leaving his Crisis suits and pathfinders to deal with the Marauding Paladins. The Pathfinders attempted to target them with markerlights however performed poorly, scoring only 1 hit. Fire from the Crisis suits was only able to kill one Paladin due to the extra cover provided by the ruins. The Justicar was able to survive attacks from his 3 opponents but again unable to do anything in reply.

Turn 5 GK
In the final turn the 2 Paldins killed one pathfinder with smite, then cut the rest of them to ribbons with bolter fire. The Interceptor Justicar also cast smite, but suffered a perils of the warp on double 1's. He exploded taking the kroot and Fire Warrior with him, however the Shaper survived with one wound remaining. Their way now clear, the Paladins charged the crisis suits, however one was killed by a lucky missile pod hit in overwatch. The charge was successful however he was unable to do any damage.

That was the end of the game (stopped at T5 to allow for other battles to be played). We tallied up kill points and found that it was somehow 7 Points to 5 in favour of the Knights, however the Tau had also scored Warlord Kill and First Blood. On checking again we noticed that the last remaining Terminator was just inside the enemy deployment zone, scoring linebreaker and taking it out by one point!

Very fun battle lots of ups and downs. I would have certainly lost if we had played on, but we were just happy to test the new mechanics and found them very intuitive. It took us about 2 and a half hours to play however a lot of that was checking stats and rule wordings, which we can obviously cut down on as we play more.

My initial thoughts on the new rules:

1. Storm bolters are great, Grandmaster/Draigo to give them re-rolls is even better
2. Cover is a huge bonus for heavily armoured troops, they are cut to pieces quickly by big guns otherwise.
3. Fast units with big guns will be a big challenge for Grey Knights as they have always been
4. Check your list again, there is definitely a weapon you forgot to purchase somewhere

BrianDavion wrote:

 cosmicsoybean wrote:
I'm a bit worried, terminators finally got the boost they need and then they add a boatload of d3+ damage stuff to the game, and a lot of armour negating ones too. I have a feeling our paladins are going to drop faster than ever.

a lotta that stuff though was heavy weapons that where killing termies anyway. lascannons etc

Yeah but now even low powered weapons can drop the precious 2+ armour lower. Cover will help i suppose but im not sure how deepstriking/teleporting will work this edition

 cosmicsoybean wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 cosmicsoybean wrote:
I'm a bit worried, terminators finally got the boost they need and then they add a boatload of d3+ damage stuff to the game, and a lot of armour negating ones too. I have a feeling our paladins are going to drop faster than ever.

a lotta that stuff though was heavy weapons that where killing termies anyway. lascannons etc

Yeah but now even low powered weapons can drop the precious 2+ armour lower. Cover will help i suppose but im not sure how deepstriking/teleporting will work this edition

how it'll work is "very reliable" there's no deep striking within an inch of an enemy unit, but at the same time means no scatter etc. this is actually good, it allows you to plan pretty precisely