Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Link to page: https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/08/20/chaos-space-marines-and-grey-knights-updates-now-availablegw-homepage-post-4/

Biggest news is some WE clarifications and WE/EC cult choices become Troops.

Some good clarifications in there.

So GW made berzerkers good in the index to sell them, and then nerfed them to elites only, because they didn't want to sell them any more. And now they decided they actually do want to sell them again a week later.

Just making sure I keep up with the 'everything GW does is a sales tactic' narrative.

And people were so dead set against them being troops as well when it was an obvious oversight.

ah thank the gods cult troops are a go for WE/EC. Also demon princes getting legion tactics, honestly wasn't sure if that was intended or not.

Dudeface wrote:
And people were so dead set against them being troops as well when it was an obvious oversight.

Made troops because there was an outcry.

As rewritten, it clearly wasn't an oversight. They had to spontaneously add a brand new special rule to each unit to make them troops.

Dudeface wrote:
And people were so dead set against them being troops as well when it was an obvious oversight.

No, people were dead set against them being troops because THAT IS WHAT THE RULES SAID.

GW Changed the Rules? Well, then they are Troops now. People didn't say they weren't troops out of some weird desire to make people upset, they said they weren't troops because they WEREN'T TROOPS.

Plus they had a designer literally say it was for "balance" reasons (let's all enjoy a laugh at that). But hey, looks like we aren't left with that mess for months or years thanks to GW's more responsive nature.

Though let's not pretend that some people weren't arguing they weren't balanced as troops. Something else the sane people can enjoy a good laugh over.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

Dudeface wrote:
And people were so dead set against them being troops as well when it was an obvious oversight.

No, people were dead set against them being troops because THAT IS WHAT THE RULES SAID.

GW Changed the Rules? Well, then they are Troops now. People didn't say they weren't troops out of some weird desire to make people upset, they said they weren't troops because they WEREN'T TROOPS.

Weirdly until 2 weeks ago they were troops, then the codex came out without the extra paragraph found in the index. They add that paragraph back in elsewhere and oddly they have the same rules now they had 2 weeks ago i.e. troops.

Daedalus81 wrote:
So GW made berzerkers good in the index to sell them, and then nerfed them to elites only, because they didn't want to sell them any more. And now they decided they actually do want to sell them again a week later.

Just making sure I keep up with the 'everything GW does is a sales tactic' narrative.

You well stocked in aluminum foil for hats?

Dudeface wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

Dudeface wrote:
And people were so dead set against them being troops as well when it was an obvious oversight.

No, people were dead set against them being troops because THAT IS WHAT THE RULES SAID.

GW Changed the Rules? Well, then they are Troops now. People didn't say they weren't troops out of some weird desire to make people upset, they said they weren't troops because they WEREN'T TROOPS.

Weirdly until 2 weeks ago they were troops, then the codex came out without the extra paragraph found in the index. They add that paragraph back in elsewhere and oddly they have the same rules now they had 2 weeks ago i.e. troops.

So? GW Change rules all the time. Broadsides used to be S10. Space Wolves Terminators used to not be able to teleport. What's your point?

 BaconCatBug wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

Dudeface wrote:
And people were so dead set against them being troops as well when it was an obvious oversight.

No, people were dead set against them being troops because THAT IS WHAT THE RULES SAID.

GW Changed the Rules? Well, then they are Troops now. People didn't say they weren't troops out of some weird desire to make people upset, they said they weren't troops because they WEREN'T TROOPS.

Weirdly until 2 weeks ago they were troops, then the codex came out without the extra paragraph found in the index. They add that paragraph back in elsewhere and oddly they have the same rules now they had 2 weeks ago i.e. troops.

So? GW Change rules all the time. Broadsides used to be S10. Space Wolves Terminators used to not be able to teleport. What's your point?

The slightly odd thing would be Jes Bickham making a point that they were intended to be elites a very short amount of time before this change.

Ix_Tab wrote:
The slightly odd thing would be Jes Bickham making a point that they were intended to be elites a very short amount of time before this change.

More proof (if more proof was needed) that one hand doesn't know what the other is doing at GW.

Ix_Tab wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

Dudeface wrote:
And people were so dead set against them being troops as well when it was an obvious oversight.

No, people were dead set against them being troops because THAT IS WHAT THE RULES SAID.

GW Changed the Rules? Well, then they are Troops now. People didn't say they weren't troops out of some weird desire to make people upset, they said they weren't troops because they WEREN'T TROOPS.

Weirdly until 2 weeks ago they were troops, then the codex came out without the extra paragraph found in the index. They add that paragraph back in elsewhere and oddly they have the same rules now they had 2 weeks ago i.e. troops.

So? GW Change rules all the time. Broadsides used to be S10. Space Wolves Terminators used to not be able to teleport. What's your point?

The slightly odd thing would be Jes Bickham making a point that they were intended to be elites a very short amount of time before this change.

I may be misremembering, but isn't that the article where they said they should never have been troops for anyone but the cults parent legions and black legion? Since for example alpha legion don't have access to butchers nails?

Edit: my bad it was on warhammer tv - yeah the designer just got overruled it seemed

I am just happy they came out with a clear answer for both the beserkers / noise Marines and the crazy idea of beserker sorcerers....

So no auto cannon dreads for grey Knights? Well feth me. Time to add my noughts to my list of illegal inquisition models.

Also I don't know how I feel about them taking away grey knight 2++s

Typical, pay as little attention to GK as possible.

I really would've liked some points adjustment so that every army isn't just spam psilencers on PAGK.

Spartacus wrote:
Typical, pay as little attention to GK as possible.

I really would've liked some points adjustment so that every army isn't just spam psilencers on PAGK.

Ironically, they removed 2++ invulns from one source, but not from the other - Just spend Command Points, and Draigo can still get a 2++.

Waaaghpower wrote:

Spartacus wrote:
Typical, pay as little attention to GK as possible.

I really would've liked some points adjustment so that every army isn't just spam psilencers on PAGK.

Ironically, they removed 2++ invulns from one source, but not from the other - Just spend Command Points, and Draigo can still get a 2++.

Basically, they made it so we can't give 2++ to GM's by stacking Sanctuary and the Stratagem. Cause that was so powerful for the investment (for 1 turn no less).

Audustum wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:

Spartacus wrote:
Typical, pay as little attention to GK as possible.

I really would've liked some points adjustment so that every army isn't just spam psilencers on PAGK.

Ironically, they removed 2++ invulns from one source, but not from the other - Just spend Command Points, and Draigo can still get a 2++.

Basically, they made it so we can't give 2++ to GM's by stacking Sanctuary and the Stratagem. Cause that was so powerful for the investment (for 1 turn no less).

Agreed, I fully expected them to get rid of the 2+ invuln. But for that to be the only real change is annoying. The more games I play the more I am realizing how limited our competitive options are, just like last edition. It'll be stuck this way at least until chapter approved adjustments become a thing, and probably a lot longer than that judging by this.

Libby 2++ in melee gone from index, GM 2++ gone from FAQ, whats next?

 Quickjager wrote:
Libby 2++ in melee gone from index, GM 2++ gone from FAQ, whats next?

maybe GW doesn't WANT 2++ invul saves.

I actually like that they made Zerkers and Noise Marines troops again.

Especially WE seemed to be a really bad option when fielding Zerkers. You gave up on Warptime or advance + charge from Renegade and just got 1 extra attack back.

Personally, I felt like Alpha Legion or Renegades were much better options for Zerkers before because my main issue with them was about how to get them into combat.

Now you can just field a lot more Zerkers.

 Quickjager wrote:
Libby 2++ in melee gone from index, GM 2++ gone from FAQ, whats next?

GM can still get 2++ as can Draigo. The only thing the FAQ stopped was Draigo getting it via sanctuary

I'm just pleased they fixed the champions weapon issues

 Motograter wrote:
I'm just pleased they fixed the champions weapon issues

I can't actually tell what this is saying. "One of the champion's weapons may be chosen from the following list"? Is this supposed to be letting the champion swap out one of his default weapons for a new weapon? It doesn't actually seem to say that, but I can't see what else they'd be trying to do here. Edit: Oh, I see. It's so that you can take a CCW and then a bolter or combi-weapon.

From a fluff standpoint, this is cool, but man WE and EC seem really strong now. I can definitely see this being a balance thing that they only changed because of all the rage.

Kahor wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:
Libby 2++ in melee gone from index, GM 2++ gone from FAQ, whats next?

GM can still get 2++ as can Draigo. The only thing the FAQ stopped was Draigo getting it via sanctuary

Don't think it works that way. You apply the strat first, which takes a GM to 3++ and then Sanc has no effect since it comes later.

 Jaxler wrote:
So no auto cannon dreads for grey Knights? Well feth me. Time to add my noughts to my list of illegal inquisition models.

You use the points value in the Index.

 Sim-Life wrote:

 Jaxler wrote:
So no auto cannon dreads for grey Knights? Well feth me. Time to add my noughts to my list of illegal inquisition models.

You use the points value in the Index.

That FAQ was done for codex space marines, not codex grey Knights. An FAQ is needed