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Made in gb
Norn Queen






So the rulebook says "If a model’s wounds are reduced to 0, it is either slain or destroyed and removed from play." But nowhere does it say the reverse is true. I am wondering this because of the whole "Self Slay Combi-Plasma Chaos Rhino" thing that's been making the rounds, does a Chaos Rhino that kills itself with Combi Plasma trigger Explodes?

Explodes says "If this model is reduced to 0 wounds, roll a D6 before removing it from the battlefield and before any embarked models disembark." but nowhere does it say that slaying a model that is slain is reduced to zero wounds. The opposite is true, of course, a model that is reduced to zero wounds is slain.

Did I miss something or does a suicide by plasma not trigger the Explodes rule, because the rule explicitly calls for being "reduced to zero wounds" and not "being slain".

And as usual, yes, this is a weird RaW thing but I am 100% sincere in my question, I want to make sure I am playing the rules correctly when I try this and would like to know if I missed something. Did I miss an FAQ somewhere?

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/04/25 11:39:31


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Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




Reduced to zero wounds and slain outright are synonymous.

Not everything needs to be over analysed dude.


DFTT 
   
Made in gb
Death-Dealing Dark Angels Devastator




Sleeping in the Rock

As far as I can tell yes. If it dies then you would roll explode. It's an interesting question, but it seems like if something is dead it has no wounds left. If you try it and someone says no it's not reduced to 0 wounds, then just ask them how many wounds the model has left then.

"In Warfare, preparation is the key. Determine that which your foe prizes the most. Then site your heavy weapons so that they overlook it. In this way, you may be quite sure that you shall never want for targets."
— Lion El'Jonson


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Made in gb
Towering Hierophant Bio-Titan





You're right, it's never explicitly stated that a destroyed model is through the act of destruction reduced to zero wounds. So by pure RAW I believe your argument stands.

It does seem to be a common, virtually ubiquitous, interpretation that destroying a model DOES reduce it to zero wounds though, so expect to have to argue your position if you want to go against that in a real game.
   
Made in gb
Norn Queen






Captyn_Bob wrote:
Reduced to zero wounds and slain outright are synonymous.

Not everything needs to be over analysed dude.

I disagree that they are. The rules only has provision for being reduced to zero wounds being slain, not the other way around. If the explodes rule said "slain", then there wouldn't be a problem, but it doesn't.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Stux wrote:
You're right, it's never explicitly stated that a destroyed model is through the act of destruction reduced to zero wounds. So by pure RAW I believe your argument stands.

It does seem to be a common, virtually ubiquitous, interpretation that destroying a model DOES reduce it to zero wounds though, so expect to have to argue your position if you want to go against that in a real game.
I'm not trying to push one argument over another, I just want to get the rules right when I try and suicide my Rhinos so I can charge out of them

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/25 10:37:48


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Disclaimer: My YMDC answers are from a "What the rules, as written (or modified by Special Snowflake FAQ) in the rulebooks, actually say" perspective, not a "What I wish the rules said" perspective. Even GW agrees with me, send an email to 40kfaq@gwplc.com for a confirmation reply "4. Apply The Rules As Written. If you still don’t have a satisfactory answer, use the rule just as it is written if you possibly can, even if you are not completely happy with the effect the rule has."
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Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




I think the real underlying problem is GW rules writers arn't using an outside independent check to ensure the rules actually convey the rules they want them too.
They all know what the rule means and are using outside information to interpret the ambiguity in the RAW.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/25 10:44:45


 
   
Made in us
Captain of the Forlorn Hope





Chicago, IL

Slain = 0 wounds. Page 7 of the rules sheet under inflict damage.

Any vehicle slain has a chance to explode if it has the explodes rule.

"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

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We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
Made in gb
Norn Queen






 DeathReaper wrote:
Slain = 0 wounds. Page 7 of the rules sheet under inflict damage.

Any vehicle slain has a chance to explode if it has the explodes rule.
You have misunderstood the question. The rule says if a model is reduced to zero wounds, it is slain. That's obvious and defined. It does NOT say if a model is slain it is reduced to zero wounds. You can be "slain" by several effects without ever going down to zero wounds, plasma among them. "If a model’s wounds are reduced to 0, it is either slain or destroyed and removed from
play."

Plasma causes the model to be "slain", explodes happens when the model is "reduced to zero wounds".

Unless there is something I have missed in the FAQs that says being slain also takes you down to zero wounds, I think my Rhinos won't explode.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/04/25 11:10:28


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Painting Within the Lines




Sheep Loveland

Common. Sense.

Or are you trying to add to your list in your signature under "Look what inconsistent rules I've found but no one actually plays them as they are because of common sense!"

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Made in gb
Towering Hierophant Bio-Titan





 BaconCatBug wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Stux wrote:
You're right, it's never explicitly stated that a destroyed model is through the act of destruction reduced to zero wounds. So by pure RAW I believe your argument stands.

It does seem to be a common, virtually ubiquitous, interpretation that destroying a model DOES reduce it to zero wounds though, so expect to have to argue your position if you want to go against that in a real game.
I'm not trying to push one argument over another, I just want to get the rules right when I try and suicide my Rhinos so I can charge out of them


I know it's just that there is often a difference between the technical RAW and the generally accepted application of the rules. I think as someone who plays this game it's important to be aware and sensitive to situations where strict RAW is the minority way of interpreting a rule.
   
Made in gb
Norn Queen






 Dr. Mills wrote:
Common. Sense.

Or are you trying to add to your list in your signature under "Look what inconsistent rules I've found but no one actually plays them as they are because of common sense!"
I am trying to get the rules RIGHT. Common sense says a Supercharged Plasmagun shouldn't cause a Rhino or Land Raider or Razorback to evaporate. Common sense says modifiers before re-rolls. Common Sense says I can't fire Mortars or Earthshakers at 2" or in Overwatch. Common sense says my Custodes should automatically hit and wound. Common sense says flamers shouldn't automatically hit supersonic jets.

I think that my Rhinos will not explode, if you have evidence to the contrary please share it, I'd love to be proven wrong on this because even I think it's stupid.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/25 11:19:23


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Dark Angels Librarian with Book of Secrets





Cardiff

Playing this correctly would be treating slain and reduced to zero wounds as the same, which they are.

Usual “please email GW” advice applies. No-one is in doubt about how to play this rule, so if you feel the wording needs tightening email GW instead of trying to convince the entire world they’re playing a rule wrong. Again.

 Stormonu wrote:
For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
 
   
Made in se
Hungry Little Ripper





The closest ruling from GW on this would be Commissar Yarrick's Iron Will ability, where whenever he loses his final wound he stays alive on a 3+. From the "Stepping into the new edition FAQ":
Q: How do psychic powers and abilities that can slay models – like ’Eadbanger and the C’tan power Time’s Arrow – interact with abilities such as Commissar Yarrick’s Iron Will, which allows him to negate his final wound on 3+?
A: These powers and abilities do not inflict damage or cause models to lose wounds, so in these cases abilities like Yarrick’s Iron Will have no effect.

Based on their answer ("These powers and abilities do not inflict damage or cause models to lose wounds"), I'd see it as abilities that instantly slay a model basically just removes the model from the table with the remaining wounds it had. So if a Rhino fires a Combi-plasma with 7 wounds remaining, it's removed from play with 7 wounds remaining.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/04/25 11:49:19


 
   
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Norn Queen






It's a shame because I actually WANT my Rhinos to explode, it can't hurt the zerkers inside so I would love the chance to inflict some mortal wounds as icing on the cake.

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Disclaimer: My YMDC answers are from a "What the rules, as written (or modified by Special Snowflake FAQ) in the rulebooks, actually say" perspective, not a "What I wish the rules said" perspective. Even GW agrees with me, send an email to 40kfaq@gwplc.com for a confirmation reply "4. Apply The Rules As Written. If you still don’t have a satisfactory answer, use the rule just as it is written if you possibly can, even if you are not completely happy with the effect the rule has."
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Furious Fire Dragon




USA

 BaconCatBug wrote:
It's a shame because I actually WANT my Rhinos to explode, it can't hurt the zerkers inside so I would love the chance to inflict some mortal wounds as icing on the cake.
But it does have the potential to hurt them. When a transport is removed from play, you roll a d6 for each model of a unit inside. Any rolls of 1 result in you slaying a model from that unit of your choice.

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Made in gb
Norn Queen






 mokoshkana wrote:
 BaconCatBug wrote:
It's a shame because I actually WANT my Rhinos to explode, it can't hurt the zerkers inside so I would love the chance to inflict some mortal wounds as icing on the cake.
But it does have the potential to hurt them. When a transport is removed from play, you roll a d6 for each model of a unit inside. Any rolls of 1 result in you slaying a model from that unit of your choice.
Yeah but I mean the Explosion itself can't hurt them on top of that, so it would be beneficial for it to explode but it doesn't, which is a bit annoying.

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Disclaimer: My YMDC answers are from a "What the rules, as written (or modified by Special Snowflake FAQ) in the rulebooks, actually say" perspective, not a "What I wish the rules said" perspective. Even GW agrees with me, send an email to 40kfaq@gwplc.com for a confirmation reply "4. Apply The Rules As Written. If you still don’t have a satisfactory answer, use the rule just as it is written if you possibly can, even if you are not completely happy with the effect the rule has."
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Stalwart Veteran Guard Sergeant





Gainesville, VA

 BaconCatBug wrote:
 mokoshkana wrote:
 BaconCatBug wrote:
It's a shame because I actually WANT my Rhinos to explode, it can't hurt the zerkers inside so I would love the chance to inflict some mortal wounds as icing on the cake.
But it does have the potential to hurt them. When a transport is removed from play, you roll a d6 for each model of a unit inside. Any rolls of 1 result in you slaying a model from that unit of your choice.
Yeah but I mean the Explosion itself can't hurt them on top of that, so it would be beneficial for it to explode but it doesn't, which is a bit annoying.


To get super pedantic: Transported units can only disembark at the start of the movement phase, or when a transport is destroyed. It does not say they can disembark if the transport is 'slain'. Does it say anywhere that slain = destroyed?
   
Made in gb
Norn Queen






 Kcalehc wrote:
 BaconCatBug wrote:
 mokoshkana wrote:
 BaconCatBug wrote:
It's a shame because I actually WANT my Rhinos to explode, it can't hurt the zerkers inside so I would love the chance to inflict some mortal wounds as icing on the cake.
But it does have the potential to hurt them. When a transport is removed from play, you roll a d6 for each model of a unit inside. Any rolls of 1 result in you slaying a model from that unit of your choice.
Yeah but I mean the Explosion itself can't hurt them on top of that, so it would be beneficial for it to explode but it doesn't, which is a bit annoying.


To get super pedantic: Transported units can only disembark at the start of the movement phase, or when a transport is destroyed. It does not say they can disembark if the transport is 'slain'. Does it say anywhere that slain = destroyed?
It says something reduced to 0 wounds is "slain or destroyed". However, the game does require some certain unspoken axioms to work, like that a D6 needs to be numbered 1-6, that a roll means to randomly determine a number etc. I think this is an English language thing where slain and destroyed are synonymous.

And before the gotcha crowd come in, that doesn't mean you can say Slain is synonymous with reduced to 0 wounds, because that's not true in English.

I do think an explicit clarification FAQ would be nice though.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/04/25 15:18:18


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Disclaimer: My YMDC answers are from a "What the rules, as written (or modified by Special Snowflake FAQ) in the rulebooks, actually say" perspective, not a "What I wish the rules said" perspective. Even GW agrees with me, send an email to 40kfaq@gwplc.com for a confirmation reply "4. Apply The Rules As Written. If you still don’t have a satisfactory answer, use the rule just as it is written if you possibly can, even if you are not completely happy with the effect the rule has."
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Stalwart Veteran Guard Sergeant





Gainesville, VA

 BaconCatBug wrote:
 Kcalehc wrote:
 BaconCatBug wrote:
 mokoshkana wrote:
 BaconCatBug wrote:
It's a shame because I actually WANT my Rhinos to explode, it can't hurt the zerkers inside so I would love the chance to inflict some mortal wounds as icing on the cake.
But it does have the potential to hurt them. When a transport is removed from play, you roll a d6 for each model of a unit inside. Any rolls of 1 result in you slaying a model from that unit of your choice.
Yeah but I mean the Explosion itself can't hurt them on top of that, so it would be beneficial for it to explode but it doesn't, which is a bit annoying.


To get super pedantic: Transported units can only disembark at the start of the movement phase, or when a transport is destroyed. It does not say they can disembark if the transport is 'slain'. Does it say anywhere that slain = destroyed?
It says something reduced to 0 wounds is "slain or destroyed". However, the game does require some certain unspoken axioms to work, like that a D6 needs to be numbered 1-6, that a roll means to randomly determine a number etc. I think this is an English language thing where slain and destroyed are synonymous.

And before the gotcha crowd come in, that doesn't mean you can say Slain is synonymous with reduced to 0 wounds, because that's not true in English.

I do think an explicit clarification FAQ would be nice though.


I agree, was more 'devils advocate' there than anything, and I certainly wouldn't play it that way. As usual GWs inconsistent use of wording leaves something to be desired.
But purely technical RAW, if the transport is slain, you can't disembark - but thats silly and we all know what they mean really (or at least hope so - messes up your plans for kamikaze rhinos if it is correct).

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/25 15:26:16


 
   
Made in us
Clousseau





East Bay, Ca, US

This is picking on a logical implication.

Essentially you're reading the statement as:

P => Q

Which therefore does not necessarily imply that Q => P. This is entirely true.

But you should be reading it as P <=> Q.

This strikes me as one of those things that is a requirement for the game to function.

FWIW there is a slight precedent. If a model is slain outright and can make another activation, it is treated at being the lowest level on its degradation table. Which would imply that it has 0 wounds.

 Galas wrote:
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Bharring wrote:
He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic.
 
   
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Norn Queen






Wouldn't being at the lowest level imply it has 1 wound?

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Disclaimer: My YMDC answers are from a "What the rules, as written (or modified by Special Snowflake FAQ) in the rulebooks, actually say" perspective, not a "What I wish the rules said" perspective. Even GW agrees with me, send an email to 40kfaq@gwplc.com for a confirmation reply "4. Apply The Rules As Written. If you still don’t have a satisfactory answer, use the rule just as it is written if you possibly can, even if you are not completely happy with the effect the rule has."
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Clousseau





East Bay, Ca, US

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Wouldn't being at the lowest level imply it has 1 wound?


Well it's one of those situations where you "treat it as though" rather than a hard "it is."

It would make more sense to treat it at the lowest level if indeed it is at 0 wounds. And this makes sense, because 0 wounds is not reflected on the degradation tables. Without that FAQ there would be no profile for slain models to fight/shoot/etc again.

Again this is using a rule to find a precedent for intent.

Logically you are correct, but it requires assuming that the original statement isn't an 'if & only if. '

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/04/25 16:18:48


 Galas wrote:
I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you

Bharring wrote:
He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic.
 
   
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Awesome Autarch





Dallas area, TX

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Unless there is something I have missed .....
 Dr. Mills wrote:
Common. Sense.
Yep, that's about right.

-

   
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Regular Dakkanaut





I'm all for writing rules unambiguously, but there is a risk that they would end up a bit like legalese, which would not be very digestible...
   
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Clousseau





East Bay, Ca, US

 deathwinguk wrote:
I'm all for writing rules unambiguously, but there is a risk that they would end up a bit like legalese, which would not be very digestible...


I agree; the implication in question is meant to be read as a logical if and only if.

 Galas wrote:
I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you

Bharring wrote:
He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic.
 
   
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Dark Angels Librarian with Book of Secrets





Cardiff

 deathwinguk wrote:
I'm all for writing rules unambiguously, but there is a risk that they would end up a bit like legalese, which would not be very digestible...


They writers are certainly paying the price for assuming people will accept colloquial wording for a short rule set!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/25 21:46:03


 Stormonu wrote:
For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
 
   
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Hooded Inquisitorial Interrogator





With the Commissar Yarrick FAQ I actually think there is some precedence that a model that is slain outright doesn't necessarily mean the model is reduced to 0 wounds. Take that as you will of course I believe they intended for the rhinos to blow up but BCB will say they intend for you to play using the rules so there you are.

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Fresh-Faced New User




Unrelated question I guess... But how do you get plasmaguns on a Rhino?
   
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Dark Angels Librarian with Book of Secrets





Cardiff

RejjeN wrote:
Unrelated question I guess... But how do you get plasmaguns on a Rhino?


Chaos Rhino with combi-plasma.

 Stormonu wrote:
For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
 
   
Made in us
Captain of the Forlorn Hope





Chicago, IL

 BaconCatBug wrote:
 DeathReaper wrote:
Slain = 0 wounds. Page 7 of the rules sheet under inflict damage.

Any vehicle slain has a chance to explode if it has the explodes rule.
You have misunderstood the question. The rule says if a model is reduced to zero wounds, it is slain. That's obvious and defined. It does NOT say if a model is slain it is reduced to zero wounds. You can be "slain" by several effects without ever going down to zero wounds, plasma among them. "If a model’s wounds are reduced to 0, it is either slain or destroyed and removed from play."
I did not misunderstand the question. The rule says if a model is reduced to zero wounds, it is slain.

If a model is slain it must have been reduced to 0 wounds.

Plasma causes the model to be "slain", explodes happens when the model is "reduced to zero wounds".
Which are the same thing.

If something is reduced to 0 wounds it is slain. conversely, something that has been slain, must have been reduced to 0 wounds as that is the only way we are given on how models are slain. (Plasma causes a slain. which by the rules means reduced to 0 wounds)

So they will explode.

Does not need an FAQ.

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We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
 
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