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Made in us
Mutated Chosen Chaos Marine




The dark hollows of Kentucky

Many loyalist marine players make the argument that it's a "drawback" that they don't get doctrines if they bring allies and that other factions have an "advantage" in that they can without losing similar abilities, which they don't have in the first place, or for whom taking allies isn't even an option in the first place like most xenos factions.

This ignores the fact that loyalist marines have the largest and most well supported selection of units in the game, so much so that they have multiple redundant options to fill most roles. They have flyers, super heavys, out of LOS shooting. Do they need allies? Is it a disadvantage for them not to take them?
   
Made in us
Ancient Ultramarine Venerable Dreadnought






It's a pretty straight-forward trade off, imo. Not being able to freely take allies IS a disadvantage, it's just balanced out by (over)encouragement to play mono.

I don't FEEL like it's a particularly costly drawback most of the time since I prefer to play mono. But if I was inclined to take a Knight or Guardsmen or something, I'd have to do some serious considering.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/05/20 21:28:53


And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

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[MOD]
Imperial Guard Landspeeder Pilot




On moon miranda.

In my own personal experience, the only reason I really see people taking allies is for some sort of advantage that their own faction doesn't have, as opposed to any narrative/fluff reasons. With respect to Loyalist Space Marines, about the allies I ever saw were the standard Guard CP battery or a Knight. With the Castellan nerfed, most of the Knight allies disappeared, and the CP battery doesn't come anywhere near matching the power of the new SM bonus rules, so they of course disappeared overnight as well. It's difficult to see where Loyalist Space Marines are suffering any sort of downside. They're still free to take allies if they want, they just don't get as many of their insanely overamped special rules, and most importantly as noted, rules that most other factions don't have equivalents of anyway.

Anyone making the argument that such is a "drawback" I'd have to argue is being disingenuous. In the strictest most literal sense, sure it's a drawback, but not in any meaningful practical sense.

EDIT: spelling

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/05/20 21:34:19


IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.

Heavy Gear Painting Log, Northern Guard, Southern Republican Army, and Terrain
The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.  
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




Just losing cheap bodies. Cheap bodies are power, and scouts don't count as such.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Many loyalist marine players make the argument that it's a "drawback" that they don't get doctrines if they bring allies and that other factions have an "advantage" in that they can without losing similar abilities, which they don't have in the first place, or for whom taking allies isn't even an option in the first place like most xenos factions.

This ignores the fact that loyalist marines have the largest and most well supported selection of units in the game, so much so that they have multiple redundant options to fill most roles. They have flyers, super heavys, out of LOS shooting. Do they need allies? Is it a disadvantage for them not to take them?


As I just mentioned, the only thing they lack is cheap bodies. Which are VERY powerful in 8th. But, marines have so many crazy rules now, they can even overcome that most of the time.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/05/20 21:32:05


 
   
Made in us
Ancient Ultramarine Venerable Dreadnought






 Vaktathi wrote:
In my own personal experience, the only reason I really see people taking allies is for some sort of advantage that their own faction doesn't have, as opposed to any narrative/fluff reasons. With respect to Loyalist Space Marines, about the allies I ever saw were the standard Guard CP battery or a Knight. With the Castellan nerfed, most of the Knight allies disappeared, and the CP battery doesn't come anywhere near matching the power of the new SM bonus rules, so they of course disappeared overnight as well. It's difficult to see where Loyalist Space Marines are suffering any sort of downside. They're still free to take allies if they want, they just don't get as many of their insanely overamped special rules, and most importantly as noted, rules that most other factions don't have equivalents of anyway.

Anyone making such a complaint I'd have to argue that such is a "drawback" is being disingenuous. In the strictest most literal sense, sure it's a drawback, but not in any meaningful practical sense.


I think the drawback would have a lot more teeth to it if Marines didn't have EVERYTHING. Like Martel says, the only thing they truly lack is cheap bodies. But even then with Bolter Discipline they are able to cut such huge swathes of opposing cheap bodies off the table they more than make up for it.

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
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Bolter discipline does force them to not move, which can be VERY costly. Marines can't be everywhere at once, so movement is valuable to them.

Cheap bodies have no such drawback in 8th. They have no drawback at all outside of ITC games. Look at how many rules they had to give marines to counteract cheap wound armies. Bolters aren't lethal to anything in the numbers they are fielded, so primaris have 3 snowflake bolters with extra AP from magical doctrines, one of which shoots extra if it stands still. All because bolters pre-PA were useless vs guardsmen and such.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/05/20 21:37:59


 
   
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Martel732 wrote:
Bolter discipline does force them to not move, which can be VERY costly.


As a UM player I don't even have that drawback. I can just waltz about firing twice up to maximum range and without penalty for moving and firing Heavies. It's crazy.

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in us
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It's all fun and games until your opponent's turn. Marines are still glass cannons as well. Very few defensive buffs. Almost all offensive to remove MOAR models. Is glass cannon status enough of a drawback? It hurts BA really bad, UM probably less so.

Actually, power armor is worse than ever because of the marine upgrades. Thanks, GW. It might be worse than it was in 2nd, except the marines are so much cheaper.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2020/05/20 21:43:30


 
   
Made in us
[MOD]
Imperial Guard Landspeeder Pilot




On moon miranda.

In all fairness, the entire game in 8E is oriented around firepower and are more sparing with defensive buffs, that isn't unique to Marines. GW has actively tamped down on resiliency and ratcheted up firepower across the board. The stuff GW tends to take the most urgency in nerfing is stuff that they feel takes too long to die or otherwise makes stuff really hard to kill (Take Cover stratagem, Castellans, Invul Saves, Iron Hands, Cultists, Conscripts, etc) and has really gone out of their way to avoid most of the truly unkillable units that we saw in preceding editions, while adding more and more killing power and actively making some of the most lethal units in the game continually killier and/or cheaper.

There's exceptions to all that obviously, but the trend across the board is heavily stilted in favor of killing power as opposed to resiliency (however it is expressed, through numbers, sv, etc), and as well appear to agree, the Doctrines more than seem to make up for not having those extra numbers and CP that Guard allies could provide, numbers Marines have really never been intended to have in the first place.

IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.

Heavy Gear Painting Log, Northern Guard, Southern Republican Army, and Terrain
The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.  
   
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I still contemplate guardsmen because they are that damn good. Scouts are pure gak in comparison. If it were just super doctrine, I'd bite.
   
Made in ca
Legendary Master of the Chapter





ohh look another "let's complain about doctrines" thread. *takes a shot*

of course not being able to take allies is a draw back. but it's generally considered to be "worth it" I mean prior to the 8.5 marine codex how many compeitive "pure marine lists" where there?

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
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I still think doctrines target units that didn't need to die faster, like other marines. They do nothing vs demons and drukhari. A really gak fix. My favorite change was 3 wounds for gravis, so those models aren't pure gak.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/05/20 22:33:34


 
   
Made in ca
Dakka Veteran





Taking faction specificity out of it, and just addressing mechanics, the whole doctrine/ super doctrine schtick, which some other armies are beginning to receive via PA and WD, was intended to specifically be a response to the three years of whining we hard about SOUP.

I think it was a good idea to add a cost to SOUP, though I think they may have over-corrected a bit.

If anyone, regardless of faction, wants both doctrines and SOUP at the same time, they are absolutely ignorant of the purpose of the rule. It was specifically created to address a particular issue.
   
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No one should be seriously asking for doctrines AND soup. That's insane.
   
Made in ca
Legendary Master of the Chapter





Martel732 wrote:
No one should be seriously asking for doctrines AND soup. That's insane.


yeah and I don't think anyone's asked for it to be combined. at most you have Marine players, fairly, noting that if they want to use doctrines, they can't use soup. it's a cost. and there might be some times you're better off not bothering with doctrines. (partiuclarly now that you HAVE to rotate them)

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
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In My Lab

It's technically a drawback.

But considering the insane power Marines of all Imperium types have, it's pathetically small.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
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Locked in the Tower of Amareo




 JNAProductions wrote:
It's technically a drawback.

But considering the insane power Marines of all Imperium types have, it's pathetically small.


Because guardsmen are so nuts, it's not pathetic. If those elite castles had IG in front of them, they'd be MUCH harder to deal with.
   
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On moon miranda.

Martel732 wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
It's technically a drawback.

But considering the insane power Marines of all Imperium types have, it's pathetically small.


Because guardsmen are so nuts, it's not pathetic. If those elite castles had IG in front of them, they'd be MUCH harder to deal with.
Sure, if a faction has access to literally every tactical option in the game on top of stupendously powerful rules, it would be harder to deal with, that's not saying much

Likewise, I don't get the fixation with Guardsmen at this point. Guard haven't been the top of the metagame for a loooooooooong time, and at this point it's far more about undercosted tank commanders that can slay almost anything in a single round of shooting than anything related to the infantry unless one is permanently fixated on Tacs vs Guardsmen in isolation for some reason. Cheap troops are useful, but they're not defining the metagame either at this point.

IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.

Heavy Gear Painting Log, Northern Guard, Southern Republican Army, and Terrain
The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.  
   
Made in us
Steady Space Marine Vet Sergeant




San Jose, CA

Martel732 wrote:
Spoiler:
Just losing cheap bodies. Cheap bodies are power, and scouts don't count as such.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Many loyalist marine players make the argument that it's a "drawback" that they don't get doctrines if they bring allies and that other factions have an "advantage" in that they can without losing similar abilities, which they don't have in the first place, or for whom taking allies isn't even an option in the first place like most xenos factions.

This ignores the fact that loyalist marines have the largest and most well supported selection of units in the game, so much so that they have multiple redundant options to fill most roles. They have flyers, super heavys, out of LOS shooting. Do they need allies? Is it a disadvantage for them not to take them?


As I just mentioned, the only thing they lack is cheap bodies. Which are VERY powerful in 8th. But, marines have so many crazy rules now, they can even overcome that most of the time.

just not Blood Angels



I have never been, man I wish I had taken an ally with my Salamanders.
Bloody Rose, Metallica then maybe yes once or twice.
   
Made in us
Rotting Sorcerer of Nurgle





In My Lab

A 4 point Guardsman (we'll assume Cadian) versus a 12 point Tactical Marine (we'll assume, I dunno, Black Templars).

10 Marines versus 30 Guardsmen, giving Marines the first turn

Spoiler:
Round 1
Marines fire 20 shots
40/3 hit
80/9 wound
160/27 go through, or just over 6 dead Guard. Morale could wipe a squad, but we'll assume it's just ONE casualty, for 7 dead Guard

Guard fire 21 shots
21/2 hit
7/2 wound
7/6 go through, for just over 1 dead Marine

Round 2
Marines fire 18 shots
12 hit
8 wound at AP-1 now
20/3 dead Guard, or nearly 7 right there. We'll assume, once again, a single morale casualty, for 8 dead Guard

Guard fire 14 shots
7 hit
7/3 wound
7/9 go through, for another dead Marine

Round 3
Marines fire 16 shots
32/3 hit
64/9 wound
160/27 go through, for 6 dead Guard again. Once again, lowballing morale, for one casualty.

Guard fire 8 shots
4 hit
4/3 wound
4/9 go through, but we'll round up for another dead Marine

Round 4
Marines fire 14 shots
28/3 hit
56/9 wound
112/27 go through, for 4 dead Guard. No morale casualties this time, because we're split firing now.

Guard fire 4 shots
2 hits
2/3 wounds
2/9 go through-but hey, let's say they get lucky. One Marine dead.

Round 5
Marines fire 12 shots
8 hit
16/3 wound
32/9 dead, or enough to say the Guardsmen are dealt with.


In an open firefight, no cover (which would VASTLY favor Marines), no support... The worst troops choice in the Marine Codex beats Guardsmen.

Edit: I did derp up and forgot to apply the Cadian Regiment trait. But honestly? It ain't gonna change much.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/05/20 23:47:11


Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
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I'm talking vs the field, not head to head. Cheap bodies have a lot of uses that have nothing to do with that kind of analysis.

Do an analysis of soaking smites from 1K sons or GK.

Those guardsmen can be holding 3 objectives, not just one.

Who do you want soaking a charge from the DC? I know who I want soaking it.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2020/05/20 23:42:27


 
   
Made in us
Rotting Sorcerer of Nurgle





In My Lab

Martel732 wrote:
I'm talking vs the field, not head to head. Cheap bodies have a lot of uses that have nothing to do with that kind of analysis.

Do an analysis of soaking smites from 1K sons or GK.
Okay.

Two 5-man Strike Squads that both successfully cast Smite then shoot, get the following:

4 MW
40 shots
80/3 hits
40/3 wounds......160/9 wounds
40/9 unsaved.....320/27 unsaved
8.5 dead............15.9 dead
MEQ...................GEQ
102......................63.6

They're about 60% more effective, if they get their two-wound Smites.
Of course, if they're BT or have a Chaplain with the right Litany, that drops to 7.1 dead MEQ, for only 85 points and only about a third again more effective.

Notably, Tacticals are STILL the worst troops choice. Scouts are cheaper per wound. Intercessors, even more so.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
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Ancient Ultramarine Venerable Dreadnought






Martel732 wrote:
I still think doctrines target units that didn't need to die faster, like other marines. They do nothing vs demons and drukhari.

How is more bullets being fired at Daemons and Drukari "nothing"?

And how can you still be complaining about Guardsmen?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/05/20 23:48:25


And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in us
Rotting Sorcerer of Nurgle





In My Lab

Also, 10 Tactical Marines (that no ones taking anyway) can hold two objectives. Sure, they have to be strung out, but they can very easily murder the Guard off an objective.

You can't hold if you're dead.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in us
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 JNAProductions wrote:
Also, 10 Tactical Marines (that no ones taking anyway) .


I do!

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in us
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In My Lab

 Insectum7 wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
Also, 10 Tactical Marines (that no ones taking anyway) .


I do!
Fair. Are you taking them to big tournaments? And do you think they're actually the best troops choice, or you just take them because you like them?

'Cause there's nothing wrong with liking Tacticals, but they're just lacking compared to the other options.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




 Insectum7 wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
I still think doctrines target units that didn't need to die faster, like other marines. They do nothing vs demons and drukhari.

How is more bullets being fired at Daemons and Drukari "nothing"?

And how can you still be complaining about Guardsmen?


Because nothing should cost 4 pts in this game. Except grots obviously, which are fine at 3. And they STILL double their firepower for a pittance. Ridiculous.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Insectum7 wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
I still think doctrines target units that didn't need to die faster, like other marines. They do nothing vs demons and drukhari.

How is more bullets being fired at Daemons and Drukari "nothing"?

And how can you still be complaining about Guardsmen?


Doctrines give me AP, not more bullets. I don't know about vanilla cheese.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 JNAProductions wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
I'm talking vs the field, not head to head. Cheap bodies have a lot of uses that have nothing to do with that kind of analysis.

Do an analysis of soaking smites from 1K sons or GK.
Okay.

Two 5-man Strike Squads that both successfully cast Smite then shoot, get the following:

4 MW
40 shots
80/3 hits
40/3 wounds......160/9 wounds
40/9 unsaved.....320/27 unsaved
8.5 dead............15.9 dead
MEQ...................GEQ
102......................63.6

They're about 60% more effective, if they get their two-wound Smites.
Of course, if they're BT or have a Chaplain with the right Litany, that drops to 7.1 dead MEQ, for only 85 points and only about a third again more effective.

Notably, Tacticals are STILL the worst troops choice. Scouts are cheaper per wound. Intercessors, even more so.


Now start putting gear on those tacticals. It goes downhill. Fast.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 JNAProductions wrote:
Also, 10 Tactical Marines (that no ones taking anyway) can hold two objectives. Sure, they have to be strung out, but they can very easily murder the Guard off an objective.

You can't hold if you're dead.


The horrible aura scheme really discourages this.

This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2020/05/21 00:04:53


 
   
Made in es
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain




Vigo. Spain.

Who has said that is a drawback that you lose doctrines if you are not a marine?


Doctrines are actually the first BONUS for playing a mono faction of the game, followed by the grey knights and the Sororitas one.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/05/21 00:11:16


 Crimson Devil wrote:

Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.

ERJAK wrote:
Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.

 
   
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 Galas wrote:
Who has said that is a drawback that you lose doctrines if you are not a marine?


Doctrines are actually the first BONUS for playing a mono faction of the game, followed by the grey knights and the Sororitas one.


That's the other way to look at it.
   
Made in es
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain




Vigo. Spain.

Also Martel I'm sorry but we are living in a post doctrines world.

Imperial Guard have been mid tier for more than half a year. Imperial Guardsmen are neligible to remove and their shooting output isnt even that good anymore compared with nearly everything else on the game. Any Space Marine army can remove 60-80 ork boyz a turn, it can do the same with imperial guardsmen. And Ork shooting is MUCH deadlier than imperial guard one.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/05/21 00:15:58


 Crimson Devil wrote:

Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.

ERJAK wrote:
Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.

 
   
 
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