Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Had a very unusual situation occur not once but twice in a single game of Iron Hands vs sister the other day and I'd like some input as to whether I royally screwed up or not.

Sisters player was using the Spirit of Martyrs sacred rite so each model destroyed can shoot or fight before it's removed.

First odd point: my Redemptor Dreadnought with 6 wounds left declares all of his shooting at the heavy weapon toting girls. I start with the macro plasma incinerator, rolled 4 shots 3 wounds 1 save failed. Sisters player pulls a multi-melta and rolls the 5+ so she can shoot first. She hits twice, wounds twice and I get no save, rolls damage, 4 and 5. Duty eternal brings this to 3 and 4. Fail all of my "The Flesh is Weak" rolls. Can my dreadnought fire the rest of his weapons? We ruled no since he was dead but we can't find anything relevant to back this up.... it's a very odd situation.

Second instance: My Tactical Squad fires at a sisters special weapon squad in devastator doctrine. Plasma cannon overcharges because why not, I have the reroll. First shot missed with 1, reroll 1... well, this is why, right here. Second shot goes alright, hit wound and kill. Sister makes the 5+ to fire back. Melta gun hits and wounds for 3 damage. Now, since I know my plasma cannon is going to die anyway after his third shot is resolved can I put that damage on him now? He's still alive for the moment as plasma weapons don't destroy the bearer until all of their shots are resolved. I said yes, opponent said no again, neither of us could find a specific rule to refer to. Ended up rolling off and I won.


If anyone knows of any FAQ or obscure side bar somewhere that explains the timing of when the dead sister fights back I'd love to know because right now it seems like it would be impossible to roll fast dice against sisters since every attack could have a different result even going so far as to remove models in the unit that is currently shooting but have not yet fired.

1) dead before he fires the rest. Arguably you shouldn't have fast rolled the plasma.
2) yes, that's a model that can have damage applied. Him dying after isn't relevant.

 dsmith10 wrote:

Sisters player was using the Spirit of Martyrs sacred rite so each model destroyed can shoot or fight before it's removed.

First odd point: my Redemptor Dreadnought with 6 wounds left declares all of his shooting at the heavy weapon toting girls. I start with the macro plasma incinerator, rolled 4 shots 3 wounds 1 save failed. Sisters player pulls a multi-melta and rolls the 5+ so she can shoot first. She hits twice, wounds twice and I get no save, rolls damage, 4 and 5. Duty eternal brings this to 3 and 4. Fail all of my "The Flesh is Weak" rolls. Can my dreadnought fire the rest of his weapons? We ruled no since he was dead but we can't find anything relevant to back this up.... it's a very odd situation.

It is odd, and there are no rules how to handle it. Its unclear when the destroyed model shoots back. Its unclear whether you get to shoot at your declared targets, or not.

 dsmith10 wrote:

Second instance: My Tactical Squad fires at a sisters special weapon squad in devastator doctrine. Plasma cannon overcharges because why not, I have the reroll. First shot missed with 1, reroll 1... well, this is why, right here. Second shot goes alright, hit wound and kill. Sister makes the 5+ to fire back. Melta gun hits and wounds for 3 damage. Now, since I know my plasma cannon is going to die anyway after his third shot is resolved can I put that damage on him now? He's still alive for the moment as plasma weapons don't destroy the bearer until all of their shots are resolved. I said yes, opponent said no again, neither of us could find a specific rule to refer to. Ended up rolling off and I won.

Yes, you could. The model is still on the battlefield, and you can allocate wounds to it.

 dsmith10 wrote:

If anyone knows of any FAQ or obscure side bar somewhere that explains the timing of when the dead sister fights back I'd love to know because right now it seems like it would be impossible to roll fast dice against sisters since every attack could have a different result even going so far as to remove models in the unit that is currently shooting but have not yet fired.

There isnt any FAQ about this. BTW, fast rolling is a good way to avoid this situation, because the fast roll dice rules dont care about dead models shooting back. If you meet the requirements of fast dice rolling you can do it, and if any dead sisters shoot back, you have already made all your hit and wound rolls. There is no going back in time, no undoing any dice rolls.

I feel like fast rolling here would be kinda gamey.... Each attack could have a different outcome, including removing models who have not yet resolved shots or in the case of the dreadnought, preventing a lot of firepower in the first place.

 dsmith10 wrote:
I feel like fast rolling here would be kinda gamey.... Each attack could have a different outcome, including removing models who have not yet resolved shots or in the case of the dreadnought, preventing a lot of firepower in the first place.

Its playing by the rules. Not my problem if GW cant write proper rules when a destroyed model shoots back.

As ever, fast rollin is not the default way the rules are written and in a scenario like this shots should be taken one by one.

Fast rolling is a legal way to roll per the core rules of the game. If you follow the restrictions for fast rolling as written, you are following the rules. This holds true even if the results could be different if you didn’t fast roll.

 dsmith10 wrote:
Had a very unusual situation occur not once but twice in a single game of Iron Hands vs sister the other day and I'd like some input as to whether I royally screwed up or not.

Sisters player was using the Spirit of Martyrs sacred rite so each model destroyed can shoot or fight before it's removed.

First odd point: my Redemptor Dreadnought with 6 wounds left declares all of his shooting at the heavy weapon toting girls. I start with the macro plasma incinerator, rolled 4 shots 3 wounds 1 save failed. Sisters player pulls a multi-melta and rolls the 5+ so she can shoot first. She hits twice, wounds twice and I get no save, rolls damage, 4 and 5. Duty eternal brings this to 3 and 4. Fail all of my "The Flesh is Weak" rolls. Can my dreadnought fire the rest of his weapons? We ruled no since he was dead but we can't find anything relevant to back this up.... it's a very odd situation.

Second instance: My Tactical Squad fires at a sisters special weapon squad in devastator doctrine. Plasma cannon overcharges because why not, I have the reroll. First shot missed with 1, reroll 1... well, this is why, right here. Second shot goes alright, hit wound and kill. Sister makes the 5+ to fire back. Melta gun hits and wounds for 3 damage. Now, since I know my plasma cannon is going to die anyway after his third shot is resolved can I put that damage on him now? He's still alive for the moment as plasma weapons don't destroy the bearer until all of their shots are resolved. I said yes, opponent said no again, neither of us could find a specific rule to refer to. Ended up rolling off and I won.


If anyone knows of any FAQ or obscure side bar somewhere that explains the timing of when the dead sister fights back I'd love to know because right now it seems like it would be impossible to roll fast dice against sisters since every attack could have a different result even going so far as to remove models in the unit that is currently shooting but have not yet fired.

Timing wise your weapons have already selected their targets the firing is simultaneous and so can't be stopped - you resolve them

You don't resolve the shoot backs till you have finished resolving the current shots

Firing is not simultaneous. Common misconception.

Target selection is simultaneous it is not a misconception. at that point all guns have been selected to fire and will fire you just resolve then one at a time (unless the target they were selected to fire at is destroyed.)

Timing is simultaneous but mechanically you resolve them in sequence.

Incorrect. The gun is targeted simultaneously but when you come to resolve its attacks, the model,is not there. It is dead.

It is impossible that anything happens at the same time in 40k. Should that ever happen sequencing comes into play. The player whose turn it is would choose the order of operations. Shooting is not simultaneous.

Its absolutely possible for things to happen at the same time that is why there is an explicit rule to govern it. Resolveing at the same time is a different matter.



SEQUENCING
While playing Warhammer 40,000, you’ll occasionally find that
two or more rules are to be resolved at the same time .

When this happens during the battle, the player whose turn it is chooses the order. If these things occur before or after the battle, or at the start or end of a battle round, the players roll off and the winner decides in what order the rules are resolved



Targeting happens at the same time and almost never causes any timing problems. The next step is to resolve each weapons shooting. The player whose turn it is then chooses the order to resolve those weapons. Resolving all of them one at a time via sequencing but as they have already been targeted to fire they fire. As sequencing does not give you permission to not fire or remove abilities once they are sequenced. The only exception is if their is no target to shoot at in which case rolling dice against non existent targets is pointless so most people recognise not to do it.

Sequencing doesn't stop them occurring simultaneously it just governs how you choose the order you resolve them. So the model is considered alive for the firing of all the guns regardless of the order they are resolved in according to the sequencing rule. The sequencing rule does not grant permission to not resolve things once they are in the sequence. (The model may die to its plasma but the other guns were firing simultaneously at the point it was firing the plasma so they still need to be resolved in the order the player whose turn it is chooses). Shoot backs then enter the sequence and the player whose turn it is chooses when in the sequence they go and almost always picks the end because its a lot faster.

U02dah4 wrote:
Its absolutely possible for things to happen at the same time that is why there is an explicit rule to govern it. Resolveing at the same time is a different matter.

Sequencing literally means that something happens first, and something else later/after that. If your unit, and my unit, would fight at the same time (for whatever reason), and its my turn, i decide to resolve my fighting first. When i kill your unit you dont get to fight, because your unit is removed from play.

U02dah4 wrote:
Target selection is simultaneous it is not a misconception. at that point all guns have been selected to fire and will fire you just resolve then one at a time (unless the target they were selected to fire at is destroyed.)

Timing is simultaneous but mechanically you resolve them in sequence.

Where is this permission for a dead model to keep firing?

Where is the permission to remove something from a sequence once added for happening at the same time

Its not dead at the time its weapons were added to the sequence

Theirs no rule to remove it from the sequence should the firing model die

Therefore it resolves because its in the sequence


Furthermore this is clarified in the shooting phase

"Note that so long as at least one model in the target unit was visible to the shooting model and in range of its weapon when that unit was selected as the target, that weapon’s attacks are always made against the target unit, even if no models in the target unit remain visible to or in range of it when you come to resolve them (this can happen because of models being destroyed and removed from the battlefield as the result of resolving the shots with other weapons in the shooting model’s
unit first)."

Sure its no longer visible or in range because a model has been removed from battlefield but the clarification is clear you still resolve shots from other weapons

U02dah4 wrote:
Where is the permission to remove something from a sequence once added for happening at the same time

Because its not happening at the same time any more. I suggest you google the definition of a sequence. Hint : A sequence is not something that happens at the same time.

Doesnt matter the shooting phase clarification is clear

Still simultaneous occurrence game wise
you just have to physically resolve in an order
Shooting phase clarification is clear you still resolve even if models removed

U02dah4 wrote:
Doesnt matter the shooting phase clarification is clear

Still simultaneous occurrence game wise
you just have to physically resolve in an order
Shooting phase clarification is clear you still resolve even if models removed

Where is anything supposed to say this? This 'clarification' doesn't exist.

U02dah4 wrote:
Shooting phase clarification is clear you still resolve even if models removed

Gonna need a page number on that assertion...

I literally quoted it for you 5 posts ago

"Note that so long as at least one model in the target unit was visible to the shooting model and in range of its weapon when that unit was selected as the target, that weapon’s attacks are always made against the target unit, even if no models in the target unit remain visible to or in range of it when you come to resolve them (this can happen because of models being destroyed and removed from the battlefield as the result of resolving the shots with other weapons in the shooting model’s
unit first)."

Shooting phase core rules

How much clearer can you be than when target is selected the weapons attacks are "always made" the fact it then clarifies specifically in relation to models being removed as a result of firing weapons in the shooting models unit and doesnt specify opposing players in its example is just a bonus and for once shockingly for GW rules writers clear cut


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Hence resolved in sequence but occur at the same time

Note that this refers to continuing to fire if the "target unit" is out of range not if the firing unit is dead. I'm not saying you are wrong. I'm saying this quote does not support your position that a dead unit may continue to make its declared attacks.

The quote says always made its not qualified thats the important bit

In reference to the target's range and LOS. It says nothing about the attacker being dead or alive. You can't isolate those words in the sentence and pretend there is no context.

U02dah4 wrote:
The quote says always made its not qualified thats the important bit

It literally is qualified. The sentence continues after saying the attacks are always made to list the situations where that is the case. Like alextroy, I'm not saying your conclusion is wrong but the rule you quoted doesn't prove you're correct.

From the Core Rules:

Note that so long as at least one model in the target unit was visible to the shooting model and in range of its weapon when that unit was selected as the target, that weapon’s attacks are always made against the target unit, even if no models in the target unit remain visible to or in range of it when you come to resolve them (this can happen because of models being destroyed and removed from the battlefield as the result of resolving the shots with other weapons in the shooting model’s unit first)

The way I see it, it doesn't matter if the attacking model is removed before shots are resolved.

1) was at least one model in the target unit visible and in range when the target was selected?
2) If yes, the shots are "always made"

The fact that the attacking model was removed from play is irrelevant.
"no models in the target unit remain visible to or in range of it when you come to resolve them" - the shots are still resolved. This includes if models being targeted are removed as well as if the model doing making the attack is removed.
"this can happen because of models being destroyed and removed from the battlefield as the result of resolving the shots with other weapons in the shooting model’s unit first". It says "models being destroyed..." not "enemy model destroyed" so this applies to both the target unit and the attacking unit.

Which is exactly how I read it

Aash wrote:
From the Core Rules:

Note that so long as at least one model in the target unit was visible to the shooting model and in range of its weapon when that unit was selected as the target, that weapon’s attacks are always made against the target unit, even if no models in the target unit remain visible to or in range of it when you come to resolve them (this can happen because of models being destroyed and removed from the battlefield as the result of resolving the shots with other weapons in the shooting model’s unit first)

The way I see it, it doesn't matter if the attacking model is removed before shots are resolved.

1) was at least one model in the target unit visible and in range when the target was selected?
2) If yes, the shots are "always made"

The fact that the attacking model was removed from play is irrelevant.
"no models in the target unit remain visible to or in range of it when you come to resolve them" - the shots are still resolved. This includes if models being targeted are removed as well as if the model doing making the attack is removed.
"this can happen because of models being destroyed and removed from the battlefield as the result of resolving the shots with other weapons in the shooting model’s unit first". It says "models being destroyed..." not "enemy model destroyed" so this applies to both the target unit and the attacking unit.

Once again, you have to finish the sentence before you can interpret it. I've highlighted in red why your analysis is incorrect.

I don't understand your point the bit you've highlighted in red proves him correct. It does exactly what he claims it does. Making it red doesn't change it's meaning

firstly you've cut of the "this can happen" highlighting that its an example of when it might happen not the only circumstance (which is what you accuse him of) secondly he's quoted the entire statement and thirdly with respect to the red but his reasoning is correct it refers to removing models being destroyed and removed as a result of shooting weapons not which army those models are removed from

 alextroy wrote:

Aash wrote:
From the Core Rules:

Note that so long as at least one model in the target unit was visible to the shooting model and in range of its weapon when that unit was selected as the target, that weapon’s attacks are always made against the target unit, even if no models in the target unit remain visible to or in range of it when you come to resolve them (this can happen because of models being destroyed and removed from the battlefield as the result of resolving the shots with other weapons in the shooting model’s unit first)

The way I see it, it doesn't matter if the attacking model is removed before shots are resolved.

1) was at least one model in the target unit visible and in range when the target was selected?
2) If yes, the shots are "always made"

The fact that the attacking model was removed from play is irrelevant.
"no models in the target unit remain visible to or in range of it when you come to resolve them" - the shots are still resolved. This includes if models being targeted are removed as well as if the model doing making the attack is removed.
"this can happen because of models being destroyed and removed from the battlefield as the result of resolving the shots with other weapons in the shooting model’s unit first". It says "models being destroyed..." not "enemy model destroyed" so this applies to both the target unit and the attacking unit.

Once again, you have to finish the sentence before you can interpret it. I've highlighted in red why your analysis is incorrect.

I'm not sure of the basis of your argument.

I quoted the entire rule, and didn't truncate or edit it to present a misleading argument.
The section in brackets is a clarification, not an exhaustive list. The opening phrase "this can happen" rather than "this happens when.." or some other variation makes it clear that the example provided is one way that this situation may arise, and not the only way.

The phrase you highlighted in red supports my argument since it specifies that when a model is removed (from either army) such that there is no longer LOS or range then the attacks are still resolved.

None of this contradicts the rule that "that weapon’s attacks are always made against the target unit". Any other interpretation of the rules would violate this key statement.