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Made in gb
Pyromaniac Hellhound Pilot






So Trooper Bragg from the gaunts ghosts can immediately shoot again every time 'this unit unit resolves its attacks' according to his 'Try Again' special rule, provided he has not landed any hits with his autocannon. He's also armed with a frag grenade, so if he shoots with that, he'll definitely get no hits with the autocannon.

Does that mean he gets to fire the grenade ONCE more, or does he keep on firing with the grenade infinitely and trigger the rule repeatedly?

Obviously the sensible answer would be once more, but I'm interested if it could be a silly infinite damage exploit rules-as-written.

The full text is 'In the Shooting Phase, each time this unit has resolved its attacks, if no hits were scored by Bragg's autocannon, this model can immediately shoot again.'

Fully Painted Armies: 2200pts Orks 1000pts Space Marines 1200pts Tau 2500pts Blood Angels 3500pts Imperial Guard/Renegades and 1700pts Daemons 450pts Imperial Knights  
   
Made in us
Insect-Infested Nurgle Chaos Lord





In My Lab

It seems pretty cut and dry to me. There's no "once" there-it's "each time".

If you can get him within 6" of something you want dead, and are willing to roll the dice, you can kill anything.

Of course, since his average shooting routine with his Frag Grenade consists of 6-7 rolls and does less than .1 damage to a T6 or higher 3+ armor target...
You're looking at rolling well over a thousand dice to kill a Questoris Knight.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in gb
Dakka Veteran





RAW, you get infinite grenade attacks

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3116 points
 
   
Made in gb
Pyromaniac Hellhound Pilot






I guess each time Bragg finishes firing it could be considered that 'the unit' finishes firing?

And yeah I had considered that with the dice, certainly not thinking of using this, but it seems pretty funny in concept

Fully Painted Armies: 2200pts Orks 1000pts Space Marines 1200pts Tau 2500pts Blood Angels 3500pts Imperial Guard/Renegades and 1700pts Daemons 450pts Imperial Knights  
   
Made in us
Captain of the Forlorn Hope





Chicago, IL

 Bilge Rat wrote:
RAW, you get infinite grenade attacks
He really doesn't.

This is because his rules say "Each time this unit has resolved its attacks... This model can immediately shoot again"

Trooper Bragg being able to "immediately shoot again" is not resolving attacks for that unit, just for that single model. There is no permission for the unit to resolve its attacks a second time.

So no infinite attacks with grenades for trooper "Try again".

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/06/19 17:06:20


"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
Made in us
Insect-Infested Nurgle Chaos Lord





In My Lab

 DeathReaper wrote:
 Bilge Rat wrote:
RAW, you get infinite grenade attacks
He really doesn't.

This is because his rules say "Each time this unit has resolved its attacks... This model can immediately shoot again"

Trooper Bragg being able to "immediately shoot again" is not resolving attacks for that unit, just for that single model.

So no infinite attacks with grenades for trooper "Try again".
So if they don't resolve attacks, how does anything happen when he shoots again?

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in us
Captain of the Forlorn Hope





Chicago, IL

 JNAProductions wrote:
 DeathReaper wrote:
 Bilge Rat wrote:
RAW, you get infinite grenade attacks
He really doesn't.

This is because his rules say "Each time this unit has resolved its attacks... This model can immediately shoot again"

Trooper Bragg being able to "immediately shoot again" is not resolving attacks for that unit, just for that single model.

So no infinite attacks with grenades for trooper "Try again".
So if they don't resolve attacks, how does anything happen when he shoots again?
Because the model has explicit permission to shoot again, the unit does not.

"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
Made in us
Insect-Infested Nurgle Chaos Lord





In My Lab

Is Bragg his own unit? That’s how most named units work.

And, if I have a unit of Devastators with three heavy bolters and one lascannon, who’s only viable target is 40” away, has the unit shot when I shoot the lascannon at the target?

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in us
Captain of the Forlorn Hope





Chicago, IL

 JNAProductions wrote:
Is Bragg his own unit? That’s how most named units work.

And, if I have a unit of Devastators with three heavy bolters and one lascannon, who’s only viable target is 40” away, has the unit shot when I shoot the lascannon at the target?
No, Gaunts Ghosts has six models in the unit. Trooper 'Try Again' Bragg is one of those models.

The others are:

Colonel-Commissar Ibram Gaunt
Colonel Colm Corbec
Major Elim Rawne
Master Sniper Hlaine Larkin
Scout Sergeant Oan Mkoll (Chief Scout Sergeant Oan Mkoll in the lore)

"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
Made in de
Prescient Cryptek of Eternity






Germany

You dont have to shoot with every model in the unit. You can only shoot with bragg, and if you do that, the unit has resolved its attacks. If no hit was scored with braggs autocannon, because he threw a grenade, he can shoot again. After he has resolved his attacks with the grenade (because he is the only model in the unit shooting, the unit has resolved its attacks). Again, no hits were scored with braggs autocannon, and he can shoot again.........
   
Made in us
Captain of the Forlorn Hope





Chicago, IL

 p5freak wrote:
You dont have to shoot with every model in the unit. You can only shoot with bragg, and if you do that, the unit has resolved its attacks. If no hit was scored with braggs autocannon, because he threw a grenade, he can shoot again. After he has resolved his attacks with the grenade (because he is the only model in the unit shooting, the unit has resolved its attacks). Again, no hits were scored with braggs autocannon, and he can shoot again.........

And you still only get to fire one additional time with bragg, as the unit can not fire a second time. For the unit to be able to fire a second time they would need permission to fire and resolve attacks twice. They do not have permission to do so, so the unit can only resolve attacks once. The unit would need to resolve attacks twice to activate "Each time this unit has resolved its attacks..."

Only bragg has permission to shoot a second time, not the whole unit.

Therefore, since the unit can only resolve its attacks once, Bragg's rule can only trigger once.

This is because the unit is forbidden from shooting twice as per the shooting rules. (Only Bragg has a special exception to make another shooting attack).

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/06/19 21:11:20


"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
Made in de
Prescient Cryptek of Eternity






Germany

 DeathReaper wrote:
 p5freak wrote:
You dont have to shoot with every model in the unit. You can only shoot with bragg, and if you do that, the unit has resolved its attacks. If no hit was scored with braggs autocannon, because he threw a grenade, he can shoot again. After he has resolved his attacks with the grenade (because he is the only model in the unit shooting, the unit has resolved its attacks). Again, no hits were scored with braggs autocannon, and he can shoot again.........

And you still only get to fire one additional time with bragg, as the unit can not fire a second time. For the unit to be able to fire a second time they would need permission to fire and resolve attacks twice. They do not have permission to do so, so the unit can only resolve attacks once. The unit would need to resolve attacks twice to activate "Each time this unit has resolved its attacks..."

Only bragg has permission to shoot a second time, not the whole unit.

Therefore, since the unit can only resolve its attacks once, Bragg's rule can only trigger once.

This is because the unit is forbidden from shooting twice as per the shooting rules. (Only Bragg has a special exception to make another shooting attack).


The entire unit doesnt need permission to shoot a second time. Only bragg needs it, and he has it. After bragg has shot again, the unit has resolved its attacks. There is nothing in the rules saying that every model has to shoot in order to resolve the units attacks.

In addition, in the shooting phase, each time this unit has resolved its attacks, if no hits were scored with try again braggs autocannon, this model can immediately shoot again.
   
Made in us
Captain of the Forlorn Hope





Chicago, IL

 p5freak wrote:
After bragg has shot again, the unit has resolved its attacks.
Citation needed because that is not what the shooting rules say at all.

"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
Made in de
Prescient Cryptek of Eternity






Germany

 DeathReaper wrote:
 p5freak wrote:
After bragg has shot again, the unit has resolved its attacks.
Citation needed because that is not what the shooting rules say at all.


When you select a unit to shoot with, you select targets and resolve attacks with any or all ranged weapons that models in that unit are equipped with (each ranged weapon can only be shot once per phase). The ranged weapons that models in a unit are equipped with are detailed on its datasheet.


I select the gaunts ghosts unit, and then i resolve attacks with any ranged weapons. I choose braggs grenade as ranged weapon. The restriction each ranged weapon can only be shot once per phase is removed by braggs shoot again rule.
   
Made in us
Confessor Of Sins




Tacoma, WA, USA

First off, this rule is badly written. I'm sure it supposed to require Bragg to miss with the Autocannon rather than not fire it and only trigger once. GW generally does a better job of outlawing recursive rules, but failed to do so explicitly this time.

That being said, this is covered by the Shoot Again section of Rare Rules. "When a model shoots again, that model can shoot with any weapons it is equipped with that it has already shot earlier in that phase one additional time." Doing it a second time is against the rules.
   
Made in us
Captain of the Forlorn Hope





Chicago, IL

 p5freak wrote:
 DeathReaper wrote:
 p5freak wrote:
After bragg has shot again, the unit has resolved its attacks.
Citation needed because that is not what the shooting rules say at all.


When you select a unit to shoot with, you select targets and resolve attacks with any or all ranged weapons that models in that unit are equipped with (each ranged weapon can only be shot once per phase). The ranged weapons that models in a unit are equipped with are detailed on its datasheet.


I select the gaunts ghosts unit, and then i resolve attacks with any ranged weapons. I choose braggs grenade as ranged weapon. The restriction each ranged weapon can only be shot once per phase is removed by braggs shoot again rule.
Yes, then you can shoot with bragg a second time, because his unit shot and resolved their attacks.

Using Bragg to make a second round of attacks does not trigger the "Each time this unit has resolved its attacks..." because only one model is allowed to shoot that second volley, the unit can not, and thats why you cant shoot more than twice with bragg.

and also, as alextroy pointed out, it is also covered by the Shoot Again section of Rare Rules.

Thus, the bottom line is that bragg can not shoot more than twice at most.

"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
Made in de
Prescient Cryptek of Eternity






Germany

It still works, all bragg needs to do is throw a grenade the first time. Then no hits were scored with his autocannon, and he can shoot again with the grenade. After he attacked with a grenade the unit has resolved its attacks.
   
Made in us
Captain of the Forlorn Hope





Chicago, IL

 p5freak wrote:
It still works, all bragg needs to do is throw a grenade the first time. Then no hits were scored with his autocannon, and he can shoot again with the grenade. After he attacked with a grenade the unit has resolved its attacks.
He can not do that infinitely though. Only twice.

"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
Made in de
Prescient Cryptek of Eternity






Germany

 DeathReaper wrote:
 p5freak wrote:
It still works, all bragg needs to do is throw a grenade the first time. Then no hits were scored with his autocannon, and he can shoot again with the grenade. After he attacked with a grenade the unit has resolved its attacks.
He can not do that infinitely though. Only twice.


RAW, he can do that infinitely.
   
Made in us
Captain of the Forlorn Hope





Chicago, IL

 p5freak wrote:
 DeathReaper wrote:
 p5freak wrote:
It still works, all bragg needs to do is throw a grenade the first time. Then no hits were scored with his autocannon, and he can shoot again with the grenade. After he attacked with a grenade the unit has resolved its attacks.
He can not do that infinitely though. Only twice.


RAW, he can do that infinitely.
That is not at all true.

RAW he can only use his grenade twice.

There is no permission for the unit to attack twice, so you can not use the "Each time this unit has resolved its attacks..." rules.

There is only permission for that model to shoot, not the unit.

Also, as alextroy pointed out "this is covered by the Shoot Again section of Rare Rules. 'When a model shoots again, that model can shoot with any weapons it is equipped with that it has already shot earlier in that phase one additional time.' Doing it a second time is against the rules."

Shooting infinite times is not "one additional time"

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/20 20:28:38


"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
Made in de
Prescient Cryptek of Eternity






Germany

 DeathReaper wrote:

There is no permission for the unit to attack twice, so you can not use the "Each time this unit has resolved its attacks..." rules.


Again, not true. The entire unit doesnt need permission to attack twice, only bragg does. And he has it. When only one model from the entire unit shoots, the unit has resolved its attacks.
   
Made in de
Pyromaniac Hellhound Pilot






Also there might be the situation where only Bragg is left, so he is the whole unit.
I'm not sure myself. But I think it is pretty clear how the rule was intended

~5750 build and painted 
   
Made in gb
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain





Cardiff

I knew this Reddit-level reading would make its way here.

Just don’t. Anyone can see what the intent is. It’s not clever to try and pretend it’s an infinite grenades rule. It’s just pointless.

 Stormonu wrote:
For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
 
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




My call is

-treat the ability as if it was attached to the weapon, so it only triggers if the autocannion was fired with.

or,

- we're on chess clocks, and I won't accept any fast rolling - you must slow roll your grenades. Then, i'm extremely slow rolling my saves, because its important I confirm every stat and rule on my model every time. Can't afford to get it wrong after all. Of course, it is still during your turn.

or

- We let everyone know what a cool thing you're doing, then I concede and pack up.

One of them is the right way to use the rule. The other two depend on whether you want to play it RAW.
   
Made in gb
Ship's Officer





Bristol (UK)

When you play chess clocks, rolling saves is meant to be on your time for exactly that reason
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




 kirotheavenger wrote:
When you play chess clocks, rolling saves is meant to be on your time for exactly that reason


There's no negotiation. The only offer is my saves on your chess clock.
   
Made in gb
Bounding Assault Marine




UK

Core rulebook FAQ repeatedly makes the RAI case for no he can't throw infinite grenades whenever dealing with attacks that generate additional attacks:

FAQ page 5 "Attacks That Make Additional Hit Rolls"
FAQ page 6 "Scoring Additional Hits"

Only problem being that all the FAQ examples cite generating attacks within the same sequence, and Bragg can "shoot again" which seems to be explicitly a new sequence so RAW yes he can for now.

My personal opinion on these rule problems is that the datasheets should be as concise as possible (so no issue with Bragg's wording; or the similar -1D rules typos on the latest sisters stuff), and the core rules should explicitly say no to these shenanigans.
   
Made in gb
Ship's Officer





Bristol (UK)

I think it's a trivial amount of extra wording to add "After resolving an attack with his autocannon..." to the start of Bragg's ability, there's no reason not to include it.
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




 Insularum wrote:
Core rulebook FAQ repeatedly makes the RAI case for no he can't throw infinite grenades whenever dealing with attacks that generate additional attacks


The grenade part is absolutely not RAI, no - but it's definitely RAI that he gets to shoot his autocannon until he scores a hit with it.
   
Made in us
Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter




I have to be honest, anyone with even a scruple of decency would see this as a typo and house rule it. That being said, RAW Bragg can literally kill titans with enough dice. Also, RAW Bragg is now the strongest character in the game, as his ability literally breaks it.
   
 
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