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Deuce11 wrote:I'm going to stick my 2 cents in this convo.

HBs are supposed to be quick and deadly, like samurai. Base A2 (A4 on the charge is fine). No rending is necessary as they already have power weapons and the goals is not to see them light-saboring through a vehicle. Keep their S and T at 3 and their save where it is *but make it invulnerable to represent their agility. I agree with allowing them to assault/fleet from vehicles.

SS as CC specialists should also be A2 base. Let them pull a marbo or a lictor deployment to represent their sneakyness. Give them stealth while you are at it. Rending is good for their uber blender-blades. I do not see what else is necessary above and beyond what they already have.

The problem is all those rules will make them expensive...

Not if we give it the SW treatment

GoDz BuZzSaW wrote:

Deuce11 wrote:I'm going to stick my 2 cents in this convo.

HBs are supposed to be quick and deadly, like samurai. Base A2 (A4 on the charge is fine). No rending is necessary as they already have power weapons and the goals is not to see them light-saboring through a vehicle. Keep their S and T at 3 and their save where it is *but make it invulnerable to represent their agility. I agree with allowing them to assault/fleet from vehicles.

SS as CC specialists should also be A2 base. Let them pull a marbo or a lictor deployment to represent their sneakyness. Give them stealth while you are at it. Rending is good for their uber blender-blades. I do not see what else is necessary above and beyond what they already have.

The problem is all those rules will make them expensive...

And with that volume of attacks (considering they get furious charge), HB's will be extremely good against almost anything, leaving no real need for you to use Scorpions.

I like the lictor-like deployment idea, but they will suffer hugely from not being able to assault when they do arrive. It would be much harder to hide a full 10-15 man unit in a possition where they will be useful next turn

Gorechild wrote:

GoDz BuZzSaW wrote:

Deuce11 wrote:I'm going to stick my 2 cents in this convo.

HBs are supposed to be quick and deadly, like samurai. Base A2 (A4 on the charge is fine). No rending is necessary as they already have power weapons and the goals is not to see them light-saboring through a vehicle. Keep their S and T at 3 and their save where it is *but make it invulnerable to represent their agility. I agree with allowing them to assault/fleet from vehicles.

SS as CC specialists should also be A2 base. Let them pull a marbo or a lictor deployment to represent their sneakyness. Give them stealth while you are at it. Rending is good for their uber blender-blades. I do not see what else is necessary above and beyond what they already have.

The problem is all those rules will make them expensive...

And with that volume of attacks (considering they get furious charge), HB's will be extremely good against almost anything, leaving no real need for you to use Scorpions.

I like the lictor-like deployment idea, but they will suffer hugely from not being able to assault when they do arrive. It would be much harder to hide a full 10-15 man unit in a possition where they will be useful next turn

Oh sorry, let me clarify. I do NOT think HB should have furious charge. Therefore all their attacks would be at S3.

4 attacks on the charge (S3) averages out 0.67 kills per banshee and an Exarch (with executioner) would get 1.78. That means a unit (considering you roll statistically) shoud kill 7.81 toughness 4 models. Against T5 (Plague Marines and the like) is 0.33 per Banshee and 1 from the Exarch, so the unit kills 4 models.

With Furious Charge (but 3 attacks) a banshee would average 0.75 kills (when charging) but 0.5 on subsequent rounds of combat. The Exarch would get 1.67 on the charge and 0.89 in following rounds. For the unit that means 8.42 kills on the charge and 5.39 in following turns.
Against T5 a Banshee would kill 0.5 on the charge, 0.25 in the next turn. The Exarch would average 1.33 on the charge, 0.75 in the next turn. 3 for the whole unit.

I hope my maths holds up I was doing it in a rush.

So with furious charge they would hit hard, but do poorly in drawn our combats. Where the base 2 attack's version is ess efficient on T1 of a combat, but doesnt fall on its ass after the 1st round. Personally I think the FC style is more fitting for HB's, but YMMV.

Furious Charge simply does not seem fitting for them. First, as previuosly stated, they don't benefit from the I bump. Second, why are they receiving a S bump?

I do not see why these masterfull swords(wo)men should be represented as initially hard hitting but floundering in subsequent turns. Can they not hold their own going toe-to-toe?

I stick by thoughts on the HBs.

Deuce11 wrote:Furious Charge simply does not seem fitting for them.

I think it does, HB's are supposed to be your swift unit that if they stay in after T1 of assault, they aren't as good, SS are your survivable ones, so Furious Charge fits HB's well, it keeps the balance there other than taking one over the other all the time.

Oh and BTW, at S3, you have a void to fill with SS and rending. the two units will play completely differently. Even if in the end they serves very similar purposes (which very well may happen) at least you have variety for the hobbyists.


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GoDz BuZzSaW wrote:

Deuce11 wrote:Furious Charge simply does not seem fitting for them.

I think it does, HB's are supposed to be your swift unit that if they stay in after T1 of assault, they aren't as good, SS are your survivable ones, so Furious Charge fits HB's well, it keeps the balance there other than taking one over the other all the time.

Doesn't the loss of A1 in subsequent turns as well as the loss of the banshee mask special rule accomplish your fluff opinion? (b masks only work on the charge, right?)

Gorechild wrote:4 attacks on the charge (S3) averages out 0.67 kills per banshee and an Exarch (with executioner) would get 1.78. That means a unit (considering you roll statistically) shoud kill 7.81 toughness 4 models. Against T5 (Plague Marines and the like) is 0.33 per Banshee and 1 from the Exarch, so the unit kills 4 models.

With Furious Charge (but 3 attacks) a banshee would average 0.75 kills (when charging) but 0.5 on subsequent rounds of combat. The Exarch would get 1.67 on the charge and 0.89 in following rounds. For the unit that means 8.42 kills on the charge and 5.39 in following turns.
Against T5 a Banshee would kill 0.5 on the charge, 0.25 in the next turn. The Exarch would average 1.33 on the charge, 0.75 in the next turn. 3 for the whole unit.

Less wounds on the charge ?


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GoDz BuZzSaW wrote:

Deuce11 wrote:Furious Charge simply does not seem fitting for them.

I think it does, HB's are supposed to be your swift unit that if they stay in after T1 of assault,

Swift seems fast and precise where as furious charge is better suited for ork. I dont think is suits HB's. 'Hit and run' could solve your locked in combat issue, but i dont think is suits bashees either.

Deuce11 wrote:Oh and BTW, at S3, you have a void to fill with SS and rending. the two units will play completely differently. Even if in the end they serves very similar purposes (which very well may happen) at least you have variety for the hobbyists.


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GoDz BuZzSaW wrote:

Deuce11 wrote:Furious Charge simply does not seem fitting for them.

I think it does, HB's are supposed to be your swift unit that if they stay in after T1 of assault, they aren't as good, SS are your survivable ones, so Furious Charge fits HB's well, it keeps the balance there other than taking one over the other all the time.

Doesn't the loss of A1 in subsequent turns as well as the loss of the banshee mask special rule accomplish your fluff opinion? (b masks only work on the charge, right?)

B masks work on the first round of assault, not necessarily the charge.

cheapbuster wrote:
Instead of the assault drill maybe some vehicles can have a kind of WWP build on or maybe as an upgrade of 20 points or so, they would work like a land raider assault ramp allowing units to assault after disembarking

I stand by Gorechild that it would make for example the foot seer council wickedly scary and so I'd much rather see it be a unique banshee power.


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Gorechild wrote:4 attacks on the charge (S3) averages out 0.67 kills per banshee and an Exarch (with executioner) would get 1.78. That means a unit (considering you roll statistically) shoud kill 7.81 toughness 4 models. Against T5 (Plague Marines and the like) is 0.33 per Banshee and 1 from the Exarch, so the unit kills 4 models.

With Furious Charge (but 3 attacks) a banshee would average 0.75 kills (when charging) but 0.5 on subsequent rounds of combat. The Exarch would get 1.67 on the charge and 0.89 in following rounds. For the unit that means 8.42 kills on the charge and 5.39 in following turns.
Against T5 a Banshee would kill 0.5 on the charge, 0.25 in the next turn. The Exarch would average 1.33 on the charge, 0.75 in the next turn. 3 for the whole unit.

I hope my maths holds up I was doing it in a rush.

So with furious charge they would hit hard, but do poorly in drawn our combats. Where the base 2 attack's version is ess efficient on T1 of a combat, but doesnt fall on its ass after the 1st round. Personally I think the FC style is more fitting for HB's, but YMMV.

I believe you are slightly inaccurate. First of all (that's just a me-thing, everybody else seems to do it), I don't like using percentages to calculate dice rolls (while fractions are harder to look at, they are more accurate).

So, first of all, I might of course be completely off track, but I did some mathhammering on a full size Banshee unit with an Exarch against a T4 unit. The Exarch does not have War shout (or at least the enemy passed his leadership test). I have four sample units: Two that have the current statline, but have furious charge. One of these squads has an exarch with a executioner and the other exarch has mirror swords. The same goes for two sample units with A2 on their statline and assuming that the exarch would then get A3 on her statline.

Alright, so when assaulting, their results should look like the following (sorry for any confusing-looking fractions, but once again: I prefer them):

Assaulting HB with FC and Executioner:
3 Exarch Attacks, 2 hits.
2 exarch hits at S6 = 1 2/3 wounds.
27 Banshee attacks, 13 1/2 hits.
13 ½ Banshee hits at S4 = 6 3/4 wounds.
In total: 8 5/12 W

Assaulting HB with FC and Mirror Swords:
5 Exarch Attacks, 3 1/3 hits.
3 1/3 exarch hits at S4 = 1 2/3 wounds.
27 Banshee attacks, 13 ½ hits.
13 ½ Banshee hits at S4 = 6 ¾ wounds.
In total: 8 5/12 W

Assaulting HB with A2 and Executioner
4 Exarch Attacks, 2 2/3 hits.
2 2/3 Exarch hits at S5 = 1 7/9 wounds.
36 Banshee attacks, 18 hits.
18 Banshee hits at S3 = 6 wounds.
In total: 7 7/9 W

Assaulting HB with A2 and Mirror Swords
6 Exarch Attacks, 4 hits.
4 Exarch hits at S3 = 1 1/3 wound.
36 Banshee attacks, 18 hits.
18 Banshee hits at S3 = 6 wounds.
In total: 7 1/3 W

So clearly FC is a lot better on the assault than simply having one more attack and now let's see the subsequent rounds (assuming that no Banshees die of course), which is basically A2 vs. Banshees as they are now:

HB with Executioner
2 Exarch attacks, 1 1/3 hits.
1 1/3 exarch hits at S5 = 8/9 wounds.
18 Banshee attacks, 9 hits.
9 Banshee hits at S3 = 3 wounds.
In total: 3 8/9 W

HB with Mirror Swords
4 Exarch attacks, 2 2/3 hits.
2 2/3 exarch hits at S3 = 8/9 wounds.
18 Banshee attacks, 9 hits.
9 Banshee hits at S3 = 3 wounds.
In total: 3 8/9 W

HB with A2 and Executioner
3 Exarch attacks, 2 hits.
2 exarch hits at S5 = 1 1/3 wounds.
27 Banshee attacks, 13 ½ hits.
13 ½ Banshee hits at S3 = 4 ½ wounds.
In total: 5 5/6 W

HB with A2 and Mirror Swords
5 Exarch attacks, 3 1/3 hits.
3 1/3 exarch hits at S3 = 1 1/9 wounds.
27 Banshee attacks, 13 ½ hits.
13 ½ Banshee hits at S3 = 4 ½ wounds.
In total: 5 11/18 W.

But yeah: T2 becomes a nightmare to your opponent if HB get A2 and as to those who claim FC doesn't fit HB - Games Workshop clearly thought so, just look at Jain Zar? I actually also did these in a scenario where you had cast Doom on your opponent, but I'll save you those terrible... TERRIBLE fractions one was 5/72.
But it depends if you want very expensive Howling Banshees. FC merely gives them a nasty punch on the first round and its not really that big an upgrade considering that they would still be heavily Doom reliant if you want them to get out of T2 of combat alive. A2 on the other hand is quite a huge upgrade. So I would say the choice ends up being whether to take FC and just keep their price at 16 pts. (as already said, they're currently overpriced), or take A2 and maybe increase their points cost a bit.
Hope the fractions were not too disorderly

And I create an account, just so I can chip in on a thread that was largely settled forever ago. Oy!

Right then! Today, I want to focus on Aspect Warriors. When it comes to Aspect Warriors, you have the Big Six, then the new arrivals, like Shining Spears and Warp Spiders. I'm more interested in the Six, for now.

Firstly, I think a universal statline for Aspects is ideal... while, yes, they are specialized in their role, the most common comparison (Space Marines) shows that melee troops don't have to have a higher WS or heavy weapon teams a higher BS ... a universal statline, with some modifications due to gear, sounds like the best idea. Exarchs, in this state, would be akin to sergeants in other forces, with upgrades available that were thematic per Aspect... the models would be just like a normal Aspect Warrior, only with +1 Attack and access to unique gear.

The statline should match the previous set-- WS 4, BS 4, S 3, T 3, W 1, I 5, A 1, LD 9, SV 4+ (Exarchs are the same, but +1A)

DIRE AVENGERS (Troops)
The absolute most important aspect to get right, Dire Avengers are the core troop choice in a way that Guardians can't be. (We'll cover Guardians later, but, in general, due to the fluff issues of "Guardian Mobs", Dire Avengers should take centerstage for Eldar, with Guardians taking support roles.) Due to being the 'balanced' aspect, a Shuriken Catapult, Shuriken Pistol, and a CCW seem standard, topped off with grenades. Due to Aspect Training, you can give Dire Avengers Rending on their Shuriken Catapults, an option that Guardians shouldn't have. (This weapon, after all, is the focus of DA training and it makes sense that they can thus make it deadlier than anyone else can) ... squads are 5-10 members, with both a Wave Serpent and Falcon Dedicated Transport Options.

(Exarch options are for later, but a Power Weapon is obviously one here.)

HOWLING BANSHEES (Elite)
Clearly they get a Fleet special rule, since the acrobatic style of the Banshee warrior is a core part of their legend. Shuriken Pistol and Power Sword as the only weapons on a standard Banshee, with the Mask giving special first-strike rule (Initiative 10) ... This gives them 2 attacks, 3 on the charge, but with power weapons, claiming a firm role. Squads are 5-10 members, with a Wave Serpent dedicated transport option.

STRIKING SCORPIONS (Elite)
As the Banshee are the scalpel, the Scorpions are the fist ... these are the right 'ard, get stuck in Eldar forces who so love getting up close and personal that they have a "knife" in their mouth to stab you one extra time. A base attack of 2, unqiue in the aspects, comes from this due to the Striking Scorpion Helmet (Exarchs get 3, natch) and a Strength of 4 as well, due to their sword (And also carry a shuriken pistol, natch). Striking Scorpions get Stealth. Striking Scorpions get grenades. Exarchs get an option to give the squad Infiltrate X points. Squads of 5-10, with a Wave Serpent dedicated transport option (Note: Taking Infiltrate and a transport is covere din the base rules and a watse of your points. Take one or the other.)

FIRE DRAGONS (Heavy)
Firstly, I move the Fire dragons to heavy instead of elite. Yes, it's a crowded area, but they make more sense here than elsewhere. Fire Dragons clearly get grenades, as well as a Meltabomb upgrade option. I'd *love* to see them get a flamer option, but, for now, we leave it and the Fire Pike in the hands of the Exarch only. Fire Dragons are, clearly, Tank Hunters. Squads of 5-10 with a Wave Serpent dedicated transport option.

DARK REAPERS (Heavy)
Reapers get a unique rule that they ignore Flat Out and Turbo Boost armor saves (The old special tracking helmets) ... aside from this, the big thing is to consider what you want their Reaper Launcher sto do ... are they "Swiss Army Knives", given to multiple roles? Should they be dedicated anti-tank types? Anti-troop? Anti-Marine? Odds are that this group will get the most reworking (Or, second after Swooping Hawks), primarily due to their gun. In a rare move away from fluff, I wouldn't give them movement penalties due to their armor. Their primary role is "Death from Afar" and since all other aspects have a range of 24 or less, the big thing for the Dark Reapers should be distance. I'm thinking that they should get Shuriken CANNON as standard weapons, and have upgrade options for other weapons, personally. Let them take missile launchers or Reaper Launchers as model upgrades for X points. Breaking with tradition again, squads wil be 5-10, but no Dedicated Transport option.

SWOOPING HAWKS (Fast Attack)
Poor, much-maligned Swooping Hawks. A new 'dex will be your breakout day, I just know it! Swooping Hawks get Jet Packs, rather than jump packs, to give them better mobility. Add in Hit-n-Run, to represent their ability to fly away from harm, and Deep Strike, for, well, swooping. Lasblasters are the default weapon, plus haywire grenades, to give them a little variety. With Lasblasters being assault weapons and having Hit n Run, Swooping Hawks make for interesting forces to harry with, able to attack and break away, or drop back and shoot, making them a more tactical option than most aspects.

As for Wave Serpents and Falcons, the Wave should probably get a 'stunning field' option, where you get the option to assault from it, but, the force field has to be dropped, leaving it vulnerable. This gives the troop transport an optional assault role for close-combat Aspects without making it a core built-in to the Aspects, where a more powerful Falcon looks like a no-brainer option. Mind you, I'd like to see the Wave Serpent redesigned instead of being a modified Falcon. Open-topped (but protected by the field), allowing for more assaultyness, instead of the more protected Falcon's rear hatch. Buuut, I'm probably in the minority, here.

(More later, afte rthis has had time to digest.)

Alright, many of your ideas seem good. REALLY good. Bottom line and biggest problem: Most of the things you suggest are already in the codex.

Sure you could give the Dire Avengers that 1 extra attack with a CCW and a pistol but that does not really do much to make them any better, only pricier. I don't care if I have an A2 S3 T3 4+ save model or an A1 S3 T3 4+ save model, none of those would be any good in combat. I know Banshees have S3 but they do have power weapons to help make up just a little bit for their low strength. Attacking at S3 and allowing armour saves is simply not worth the points. Dire Avengers are and will always be a shooty aspect, beside being balanced as far as offense and defence goes, unless of course people change them to make them desirable in melee rather than just being a mediocre tar pit in melee at best.

Banshees: I don't really see any new suggestion at all in here, unless you are suggesting making these the only Eldar in the codex with fleet, which is just unfluffy... all Eldar except a very few heavy ones should have Fleet IMO.

Scorpions: Giving them Infiltrate as a non-upgrade USR has already been suggested. The Exarch would then be able to get a "Pathfinder"-Stealth cover, allowing them to get 2+ to every Cover save (so 5+ becomes 3+)
I would like to add more but I've gotta run

Yeah, figured that most of it had been worked out an entire thread ago, but, had to at least speak up.

The DIre Avengers getting a second melee attack is, really, just fluff. No one is going to quake in their boots over a second Str 3 non-power attack, but, sinc ethey're supposed to be the all-around experts, it made sense. The point cost likely wound't change much, either. (Heck, I tossed grenades in there as well.) Making them 'properly' was one thing, but costing them properly would be a second. Off the top of my head, I'd say 12 points, so, cheaper than a Marine, but on par with a Tau Warrior. (Both are Str 3, Tou 3, SV 4+ models, with the Tau having a better range and Str 5 weapons vs the Dire Avenger's rending Catapult and 'impressive' melee capabilities. You could even argue a Dire Avenger to be a 10 point model, but, I figured 12 to be safe.

And, yeah, not much of a change with Banshees... they've always been solid troops. Fleet would allow them to assault after running, an ability that the average Eldar shouldn't have, and I went back and forth on if they should have counter-charge before finally settling against it. I tried to come up with some sort of "Acrobatic movement" rule, such as an invulnerable save in melee or being able to pass over troops, before realizing that rule creep was a problem, not a solution, and to keep it as simple as possible. I even considered upping their Weapon SKill to 7, thus making WS 3 troops only hit on a 5+, but, once again, taht seemed to go against the grain, where a trooper's statline doesn't really change, even if given a specialized role.

If you want some thing radically different, I considered doing up the Warp Spiders as 'hunters of the warp', where the guns they carried didn't do the web blasts of old but, instead, ignored invulerable saves, making them prime Daemonhunters, since ELdar have a bit of backstory with Slaanesh. A wee bit. A smidgen, even. Didn't in the end because, well, once again, once you start making exceptions to rules, and exceptions to exceptions, you tumble back to third edition, and that's never wise.

Why shouldn't the average Eldar have fleet?
They are all incredibly swift compared to most other races, which is what Fleet really describes. If you take away Fleet as a rule for the entire Eldar codex you take away a great strength of theirs. While it's only truly useful on a melee unit - meaning Dark Eldar benefit slightly more from it - that is what really becomes a strength of the current Eldar. Your opponent knows that your soldiers are squishy and so you can really surprise people by choosing to attack (and squishy Eldar can win battles purely from having a higher initiative score).

Fleet is pretty rare for one. Most of those with it had 'beast' or 'leaping' back in older editions, like hormagaunts or rough riders. Now, the old "fleet of foot" rule is universal as "running", which clearly the Eldar can do like everyone else, but 'Fleet' as a new power is the ability to get into melee after running, which is similar enough to a 12" assault move that it can be tied to those models which used to have it.

And that doesn't include Eldar.

Tacking it onto Howling Banshees alone helps sell the idea that they're uniquely swift and agile yet keeps it different from the Swooping Hawks, who move in assault, always, but can't assault after running.

Thus, everyne gets a niche.

But Banshees already have a niche being A) agressive because of their fragility and being the only truly CC unit (apart from Harlequins) with fleet and B) MEQ destroyers because they're a bloody power weapon unit.
Just my thoughts on it.

cheapbuster wrote:

Gorechild wrote:4 attacks on the charge (S3) averages out 0.67 kills per banshee and an Exarch (with executioner) would get 1.78. That means a unit (considering you roll statistically) shoud kill 7.81 toughness 4 models. Against T5 (Plague Marines and the like) is 0.33 per Banshee and 1 from the Exarch, so the unit kills 4 models.

With Furious Charge (but 3 attacks) a banshee would average 0.75 kills (when charging) but 0.5 on subsequent rounds of combat. The Exarch would get 1.67 on the charge and 0.89 in following rounds. For the unit that means 8.42 kills on the charge and 5.39 in following turns.
Against T5 a Banshee would kill 0.5 on the charge, 0.25 in the next turn. The Exarch would average 1.33 on the charge, 0.75 in the next turn. 3 for the whole unit.

Less wounds on the charge ?

And that's what happens when you rush and finish a post 2 minutes before the end of work
I think Wooly's numbers hold up though, I cba to do it all again at the moment.

Wakshaani wrote:Firstly, I think a universal statline for Aspects is ideal... while, yes, they are specialized in their role, the most common comparison (Space Marines) shows that melee troops don't have to have a higher WS or heavy weapon teams a higher BS ... a universal statline, with some modifications due to gear, sounds like the best idea. Exarchs, in this state, would be akin to sergeants in other forces, with upgrades available that were thematic per Aspect... the models would be just like a normal Aspect Warrior, only with +1 Attack and access to unique gear.

The problem is that Space Marines (whilst still being highly skilled) are nowhere near as specialised as the Aspect Warriors. They are made to be good all-rounders, whereas the aspects strive for perfection on one path to the exclusion of absoloutly everything else. There shouldn't be anything "generic" about any of the aspects, thats the whole point of them. Theres no way a Howling Banshee should be as good at shooting as a Dark Reaper, just as a Dark Reaper shouldn't be able to get as many attacks as a Banshee would in combat.
I think it would be best to just include as much as possible into their base stats, as it can get confusing if a unit has a mountain of wargear, but thats just me.

Actually I believe that's quite easy to simulate through Wargear.
A Dark Reaper may have 48" range at BS 4 or 5, the exarch having +1 BS, which is quite impressive as that would mean that foot soldiers can shoot better than tanks - if that's not impressive I don't know what is (after all, Falcons and WS's have BS 3).
On that note, I DON'T think Reapers should have Shuriken Cannons. Rather, they should have something like they have now, maybe with more shots, but at least an AP of 1-3.

Farseer should have Conceal as a power not MindWar

Warlocks should have MindWar

Swooping Hawks should have jet packs

Dark Reapers should be 25pts not 35pts and the Reaperlauncher should be heavy 1 not heavy 2 and the Dark
Reapers Exarch power that ignores cover saves should work on the whole unit (as it dose with every other Exarch
power in the game).

Guardians should have 4+ saves, defensive and assault grenades

Wraithguard should have a feel no pain since there dead (plus every man and his dog has it now)

Night Spinner should be banned or made 275pts

Warp Spiders should not die if they get a Double maybe only on a Double 6 if at all

Rangers should be 15pts


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just my 2 cents

Well, actually, that's a small fair point regarding Mind War. It's currently (at LD10) so impotent that it's power level is better suited for a Warlock ability. Warlocks need higher LD, though.
Conceal needs to be buffed, though, if applied to a Farseer.

Swooping Hawks having Jet Packs is a favourite of mine as well, since it additionally alleviates the "deploy in a neat pattern that makes a frag missile kill the entire squad"-problem.

However, yorkskargrimironklaw, I do not understand your sentiment regarding the Night Spinner, as it is currently over-costed even compared to the 4th edition Eldar codex. Some would argue that it's situational, others would argue that it's useless. I still haven't seen anyone swear by them. The only situation where they are useful is against an Ork or Tyranid horde.

Damn, it sounds like you've been beaten in the face by a Night Spinner one to many times.....275 points is insane.

I think it's a decent idea to give the Warlocks Mind War but I also think that it's nice for the Farseer to have an offensive spell of sorts - and let's be honest: Elditch Storm is not meant to be utter destruction, just a fun utility power (as discussed it could be anti Deep Strike in some way.
I don't want to give the Farseer another average shooting power like, use your psychic power and you get this shooting attack, because on the paper, Mind War's a lot of fun - even though it's impractical. So I'll say: Just make it different.
Regarding Dark Reapers: Why on earth would anyone want to make them Heavy 1?! 4 Strength 5, AP 3 shots plus the exarch shots is just terrible when you look at the awesomeness of, say, the Fire Prism, the DAVU Falcon, the War Walker, the Night Spinner, hell even the Wraithlord and Support Weapon Platton is a lot better. I agree they should be lowered in price but they are overpriced as it is.

Borrowing from Gorechild wrote:

Swooping Hawks - xxx points
Unit size - 4 Swooping Hawks, 1 Exarch

Stats:
As now

Special Rules:
Aspect Warriors
Fleet

Unit Type:
Type is conferred by Hawk Wings

Wargear:
Hawk Wings discussed below quote
Haywire Blaster R24" S4 AP4 Assault 1 Haywire. (1=nothing 2-5=glance 6=pen)
Haywire Grenades. (1=nothing 2-5=glance 6=pen)

Options:
Up to 5 Additional Swooping Hawks may join the unit for XX points each
The Exarch weapons discussed below quote

Exarch powers:
Sky leap - The unit has access to Turbo Boost universal special rule.
Second exarch power discussed in the Hawk Wings discussion below.

Aspect Warrior- A unit with the "Aspect Warrior" Special rule can regroup as long as it is above 25% of its starting strength (rather than the usual 50%), all other conditions that prevent a unit from regrouping still apply.

Exarch weaponry- The current model for Exarch weapons are <single power weapon>, <more powerful>, and <extreme rate of fire and pinning>. With a change of role to be singularly dedicated to anti-armour (although as tradition goes, the weapon isn't too shabby at hunting Aspect Warriors, Scouts, and Tau, even though it is using a screwdriver as a hammer), there is need of change, naturally. I never did understand why every single aspect had to have the option of power weapon in close combat, when they did all they could to avoid it. Here's my suggestions:
Sun Blaster. R24", S8, Ap2, Assault 1 Lance. Better against light vehicles and MEQ/TEQ/MC, against medium vehicles and heavy vehicles it has increased penetration chance but decreased glancing chance (+1/6 pen, -2/6 glance). This is a light version of the Bright Lance.
Haywire Pulse. R24", S3, Ap4, Assault 2 Haywire. Death by glancing. With doubled number of chances to both glance and penetrate, this weapon is better at anti-vehicle than Sun Blaster, but the decreased strength over the original gun means it's only marginally better at anti-infantry and decidedly worse against MEQ/TEQ/MC.

Hawk Wings- As I see it there are two possible ways of dealing with this; either jump infantry or jet infantry. The benefits and drawbacks should be obvious, on the one hand jet infantry allows the unit to move in the assault phase on a turn when they arrive, and as such minimizing the effects of Frag Grenades and allows for safer insertions, and on the other hand jump infantry is slightly cheaper and allows for 36" reach instead of 30" reach of the main weapon. Naturally jet infantry should be the more attractive, but does it fit the unit? Personally I think it does more than arbitrarily dictating that the unit may not be attacked in order to signify that the unit is in perpetual motion - remember that even the Stubby Short Bus called "Valkyrie" can be assaulted and that's an aerial insertion craft. Hell, even Falcons are more air superiority fighter than tank.
This leaves the second exarch power. With two options, naturally there is no obvious power for them here, especially since the long range on the weapons mean that the unit prefers to stay out of close combat, and at times when they really must take something down there is some desperation so I do not think particularly that the current "always hit on no less than 4+" is poor for this unit. Here's a few I had in mind that could suit this unit:
Jump infantry - When deep striking, the unit is deployed freely in unit coherency around the central model.
Both - The unit may arrive as if it was one turn later than it really is. (4+ on turn 1 & auto on turn 4, instead of 4+ on turn 2 and auto on turn 5).
Both - Instead of arriving normally from deep strike, the unit may arrive from a table edge eligible for outflanking. This table edge is chosen, not rolled for.
Both - Overcharging their weapons, the squad's weapons have a +1 bonus to their armour piercing and strength characteristics as well as haywire rolls. One use only.*

* Do note that Eldar weapon and technology is archaic and semi-organic in nature. It would not even much of a retcon or rewrite of fluff to dictate that Eldar can influence their weapons directly through psychic/exarch powers, as the weapons themselves are already psychically made and activated. Although I should perhaps add, to my shame, that I just bought Path of the Warrior and still have not read it. It is an interesting path to explore for Exarchs in particular, though, especially for the ranged aspects - direct psychic interfacing with weapons. The codex is starved for group-benefits for especially Dark Reapers.

With hawks, why not just give the exarch this:

"Masters of the Skies: When deepstriking, the hawk unit may deploy in any arrangement, as long as it follows the normal unit coherency rule described in the Main Rulebook, rather than the usual deepstrike formation. Further, if the hawk unit should mishap during deepstrike, they always suffer a "delayed" result."

I also think that Intercept should stay. It is a nice power.

I support Jump infantry over jet infantry. Speed seems more their deal.

Well, I agree that Swooping Hawks seeming like a speeding unit.

Also, completely off-topic: Has it been discussed that Autarchs should be able to have different equipment?
I mean, let's call them the Eldar equivalent of an Archon (although, admitted, the Archon is a lot more self-focussed and the Autarch focusses on being a good general and such). The Archon can gain some rather neat equipment, no? Why not let the Autarch gain at least some equipment options that isn't just recycled from Aspect Warrios. Take the Diresword as an example: Not really that good with the Dire Avengers and it's the only Force Weapon (force weapon-ish at least) in the entire Codex! If an Autarch could get that as a pricey upgrade you could actually create a pretty mean killer (even though he might be heavily Doom reliant still).
I don't, however, think that making up a whole lot of new equipment is necessary unless people plan of including a whole of HQs that could all need some neat toys. Maybe just some the Exarch gear that isn't necessarily limited to that aspect (for example the Biting Blade is obviously a Scorpion-esque weapon, as the Mirror Swords are very Banshee-ish, but as my example states: I don't see what the Diresword has to do with the Dire Avengers).

Swooping Hawks Are Woeful.

Diresword is a fluff type deal. It makes no sense in the game, but it is a ritual instrument of the Avengers. Sort of the same reason why Baharroth is great in CC and the Hawk exarch isn't too shabby, while the Hawks themselves are hands down the worst CC aspect Eldar has.

Wooly wrote: Also, completely off-topic: Has it been discussed that Autarchs should be able to have different equipment?
I mean, let's call them the Eldar equivalent of an Archon (although, admitted, the Archon is a lot more self-focussed and the Autarch focusses on being a good general and such). The Archon can gain some rather neat equipment, no? Why not let the Autarch gain at least some equipment options that isn't just recycled from Aspect Warrios. Take the Diresword as an example: Not really that good with the Dire Avengers and it's the only Force Weapon (force weapon-ish at least) in the entire Codex! If an Autarch could get that as a pricey upgrade you could actually create a pretty mean killer (even though he might be heavily Doom reliant still).
I don't, however, think that making up a whole lot of new equipment is necessary unless people plan of including a whole of HQs that could all need some neat toys. Maybe just some the Exarch gear that isn't necessarily limited to that aspect (for example the Biting Blade is obviously a Scorpion-esque weapon, as the Mirror Swords are very Banshee-ish, but as my example states: I don't see what the Diresword has to do with the Dire Avengers).

Thing here is that those weapons are Exarch weapons, used only by them. Autarches was never Exarches. But I do agree they should get some more equipment options.

Yeah, I did come to that conclusion.
But a BS 6 Fire Dragon with a Power Weapon, 4/5 attacks and I 7 really isn't worth the points cost (about 100 pts.) There is no way that even with the Master Strategist that unit is worth 5 Fire Dragons (yes, I'm very aware that FDs are about the most points efficient aspect ever, not to say one of the best units in the bloody game).