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2018/11/14 18:32:15
Subject: Soda Pop Miniatures, (Super Dungeon Explore Legends, response to AG complaint)
No, I believe that CMoN did the actual production, and SPM was only responsible for design and development of RK. It was the same as material that CMoN used for Sedition Wars
JohnHwangDD wrote: No, I believe that CMoN did the actual production, and SPM was only responsible for design and development of RK. It was the same as material that CMoN used for Sedition Wars
For RK, the rumor I heard was that SPM/ND were given alot of independence and didn't get their work completed/submitted in time to the factory in China and subsequently lost their production slot instantly putting them at the back of the line and many months behind. As always with unsubstantiated rumors, apply salt as needed.
Besides, SPM has also nothing to do in the Robotech Kickstarter. Would be good if people stop blaming unrelated things to, well, unrelated events.
SPM formed ND in conjunction with Cypher Studios specifically to work on Robotech Tactics. To say that the same people in the same location doing the same job is "unrelated" just because a different bank account is on the paycheck (signed by the same boss) is naive at best. Now I don't think that they're the main culprit in the failure of the Robotech project but the warning signs were there in that their previous project RK was already behind and they had a serious lack of communication with palladium. Their instantly dropping all communication a day or two after the end of crowdfunding to the surprise of all (including Palladium) and the 3d file format incompatibility aren't coincidences given their troubles both before and especially since.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/11/14 18:56:51
We Munch for Macragge! FOR THE EMPRUH! Cheesesticks and Humus!
2018/11/14 19:35:53
Subject: Soda Pop Miniatures, (Super Dungeon Explore Legends, response to AG complaint)
SPM formed ND in conjunction with Cypher Studios specifically to work on Robotech Tactics. To say that the same people in the same location doing the same job is "unrelated" just because a different bank account is on the paycheck (signed by the same boss) is naive at best. Now I don't think that they're the main culprit in the failure of the Robotech project but the warning signs were there in that their previous project RK was already behind and they had a serious lack of communication with palladium. Their instantly dropping all communication a day or two after the end of crowdfunding to the surprise of all (including Palladium) and the 3d file format incompatibility aren't coincidences given their troubles both before and especially since.
I would like to see the source of that. There was an update on that old Kickstarter talking specifically about this, or are those theories coming from elsewhere ?
2018/11/14 19:43:07
Subject: Soda Pop Miniatures, (Super Dungeon Explore Legends, response to AG complaint)
I'm not sur ND was made just for the Robotech KSer but there's old emails pre-launch from Kevin talking about how he was teaming up with them as Palladium had no experience working with China and they were handling all the modeling and production of the figures and cardboard while Palladium was Rules, getting approvals from HG and delivery. There are also updates where Kevin talks about the reason the minis are all multipart and hard to assemble is ND convinced him that's they way they should be done. ND and Palladium a parted ways shortly after wave 1 delivered. Probably due to all the manufacturing and sculpting issues as as I believe lots of things had to be resculpted after the had been approved to be multipart kits and that sucked up a lot of money. Then everyone hated them and the product didn't sell much partly as it was a huge pain to put together and play.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/11/14 19:46:25
2018/11/14 20:02:01
Subject: Soda Pop Miniatures, (Super Dungeon Explore Legends, response to AG complaint)
SPM formed ND in conjunction with Cypher Studios specifically to work on Robotech Tactics. To say that the same people in the same location doing the same job is "unrelated" just because a different bank account is on the paycheck (signed by the same boss) is naive at best. Now I don't think that they're the main culprit in the failure of the Robotech project but the warning signs were there in that their previous project RK was already behind and they had a serious lack of communication with palladium. Their instantly dropping all communication a day or two after the end of crowdfunding to the surprise of all (including Palladium) and the 3d file format incompatibility aren't coincidences given their troubles both before and especially since.
I would like to see the source of that. There was an update on that old Kickstarter talking specifically about this, or are those theories coming from elsewhere ?
Which part would you like to see the source of?
We Munch for Macragge! FOR THE EMPRUH! Cheesesticks and Humus!
2018/11/14 21:32:49
Subject: Soda Pop Miniatures, (Super Dungeon Explore Legends, response to AG complaint)
I give Relic Knights a bit of a pass. It was back when Kickstarter was fairly new and one of the first to explode like that and before companies really understood the scope creep they were creating and before the drawbacks of restic were really understood.
2018/11/14 22:35:19
Subject: Soda Pop Miniatures, (Super Dungeon Explore Legends, response to AG complaint)
LunarSol wrote: I give Relic Knights a bit of a pass. It was back when Kickstarter was fairly new and one of the first to explode like that and before companies really understood the scope creep they were creating and before the drawbacks of restic were really understood.
If one didn't understand that using board game figure plastic for a miniature game was not a good idea, I don't know what to say. It was clear out of the gate that PVC was a subpar material to use for any miniature game. It was done because it was cheap, and that's an easier sell than expensive resin.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/11/14 22:35:46
2018/11/14 22:37:32
Subject: Soda Pop Miniatures, (Super Dungeon Explore Legends, response to AG complaint)
John Cadice responded in SPM-friendly Chibi Gamers:
John Starck Cadice wrote: Plans are in motion, and have been worked on for a very long time to secure our manufacturing. Contextually, it is only a portion of the story, we will be sharing more to the community soon, with GOOD news, not all this flame and damnation. We are still moving forward, halts were unavoidable, but temporary.
The AG response was truthful and necessary, and we remain committed to deliver your pledges. A great deal of information is not visible as to our current activities, when it is secure, we will tell you. No more rampant speculation and basing our communications off of the promises of others. Only what we hold in our hands.
LunarSol wrote: I give Relic Knights a bit of a pass. It was back when Kickstarter was fairly new and one of the first to explode like that and before companies really understood the scope creep they were creating and before the drawbacks of restic were really understood.
If one didn't understand that using board game figure plastic for a miniature game was not a good idea, I don't know what to say. It was clear out of the gate that PVC was a subpar material to use for any miniature game. It was done because it was cheap, and that's an easier sell than expensive resin.
Lots of people invested a lot of work into the idea. SodaPop was hardly alone in this mistake.
2018/11/14 22:53:19
Subject: Soda Pop Miniatures, (Super Dungeon Explore Legends, response to AG complaint)
The larger PVC figures were nowhere near as bad as the smaller ones. I could figure out what to paint on the Noh. Not so much on a lot of the other factions.
I still find it hard to believe that Sodapop pushed for those multipart plastic kits, when they themselves had no experience with it.
Poorly lit photos of my ever- growing collection of completely unrelated models!
JohnHwangDD wrote: Thanks, though if it wasn't me, it'd be someone else (nkelsh, most likely).
Your post neatly sums up the situation. Let us know if John Candice follows up on his initial response with a concrete plan. I wonder if current customers are sharing this info with the upcoming partners for the just announced projects or if they are apparently in the dark as Paizo chose to be.
If SPM had real news to share, they could have done so at any time in the past several months since their last Update in SDE:Legends, but now that it's come out that they misspent roughly $1M on SDE:L and can't pay Prodos/Archon for the low-quality resins they've been shipping, John Cadice finally responds. Funny how that works.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/11/14 23:18:07
We Munch for Macragge! FOR THE EMPRUH! Cheesesticks and Humus!
2018/11/15 07:05:16
Subject: Re:Soda Pop Miniatures, (Super Dungeon Explore Legends, response to AG complaint)
highlord tamburlaine wrote: The larger PVC figures were nowhere near as bad as the smaller ones. I could figure out what to paint on the Noh. Not so much on a lot of the other factions.
I still find it hard to believe that Sodapop pushed for those multipart plastic kits, when they themselves had no experience with it.
I think the biggest problem with the first Relic Knights KS figures was that they wanted to translate the already metal miniatures into PVC without any re-design of the figures. There was shrinkage in the translation from metal to plastic. Bad shrinkage.
The newer figures, sculpted with the plastic in mind did not have as much problems. But all in all I was really dissapointed with the Relic Knights KS (my second big dissapointment of kickstarter...).
The Forgotten King KS, on the other hand, was fine. No warning flags whatsoever for me. I was confident moving from that into SDE:Legends.
I have the results of the last chamber: You are a horrible person. That's what it says: A horrible person... We weren't even testing for that.
2018/11/15 07:14:53
Subject: Re:Soda Pop Miniatures, (Super Dungeon Explore Legends, response to AG complaint)
JohnHwangDD wrote: No, I believe that CMoN did the actual production, and SPM was only responsible for design and development of RK. It was the same as material that CMoN used for Sedition Wars
For RK, the rumor I heard was that SPM/ND were given alot of independence and didn't get their work completed/submitted in time to the factory in China and subsequently lost their production slot instantly putting them at the back of the line and many months behind. As always with unsubstantiated rumors, apply salt as needed.
I doubt it. If that's the case, someone would have take 5m in the last three months to post an update saying what you just said. You know, because companies who do KS should understand basic courtesy and communication with the people giving them money.
"The 75mm gun is firing. The 37mm gun is firing, but is traversed round the wrong way. The Browning is jammed. I am saying "Driver, advance." and the driver, who can't hear me, is reversing. And as I look over the top of the turret and see twelve enemy tanks fifty yards away, someone hands me a cheese sandwich."
2018/11/15 14:19:27
Subject: Re:Soda Pop Miniatures, (Super Dungeon Explore Legends, response to AG complaint)
The Forgotten King KS, on the other hand, was fine. No warning flags whatsoever for me. I was confident moving from that into SDE:Legends.
Components were fine, on the other side, gameplay was seriously lacking. Enough to convince me to never invest in any of their products...
That was my big issue with Forgotten King, and the reason I sold my copy. If anything the gameplay was worse than in the original SDE game, despite the claims to have fixed the problems.
The original had too much complexity, and took too long, for the amount of fun and strategy involved. So they, uh, added more complexity without increasing the amount of fun or strategy... Meh.
John Candice posted a few more times in the facebook thread linked above stating that the proof will be in the pudding and he's happy with the quality of the Starfinder miniatures delivered. Someone else posted a perfect response IMO but the emphasis is mine.
Julius Alexander John Starck CadiceI believe what Rob is saying is that the communication of things such as the AG report should have come from you and it should have come to the backers on the official channels a year ago. He is not wrong, what your company did has moral questions that I think do not reflect well. For example many starfinder backers feel you misled them on the strength of your company to get their backing for that kickstarter. The AG report seems to support this view. You offered late pledges for SDL even up till just months ago, you may even still be offering them if people email your company. This for a project that is out of money. The legality of doing so is questionable to say the least. You said you would no longer accept refund requests for a project that appears to have a contractual obligation to continue to allow (see KS ToS). That is not a complete list. I believe what Rob is saying is you have an obligation (also see ks ToS) to communicate honestly and effectively with backers. Doing so on facebook does not count, doing so only when you are working on deals, new KS, also does not count.
The last time you communicated with us was when you wanted us not to sink your Starfinder KS. Honestly this seems to be what you are doing again, the AG report comes out and you are working on deals for acquisition or credit and with IDW, no doubt consumer rage is not helping, but your history is only speaking when it benefits you and only so much as to silence us and furthermore the communication you give us is generally inaccurate.The two times you said you were waiting for proofs we now know was not true, as you had not the money to order production to begin with. How can you expect us to believe you after all of this?
That's the key for me (as someone with no money on the hook admitedly as I didn't luckily back the Starfinder KS). ND/SPM communicate only when it suits them and only to put out fires of their own making that may affect their ability to repeat the cycle of promise/crowdfund/delay that pays for their ongoing existence despite delivering few products promised in return.
We Munch for Macragge! FOR THE EMPRUH! Cheesesticks and Humus!
2018/11/15 18:19:37
Subject: Soda Pop Miniatures, (Super Dungeon Explore Legends, response to AG complaint)
Im super bummed. I went all-in on the Legends KS and this is...what? Proof that it will never get delivered and we're all screwed out of $250+ dollars?
And to secure a contract to produce Starfinder minis after knowing this last project was failing? That has to be criminal.
warboss wrote: John Candice posted a few more times in the facebook thread linked above stating that the proof will be in the pudding and he's happy with the quality of the Starfinder miniatures delivered. Someone else posted a perfect response IMO but the emphasis is mine.
Julius Alexander John Starck CadiceI believe what Rob is saying is that the communication of things such as the AG report should have come from you and it should have come to the backers on the official channels a year ago. He is not wrong, what your company did has moral questions that I think do not reflect well. For example many starfinder backers feel you misled them on the strength of your company to get their backing for that kickstarter. The AG report seems to support this view. You offered late pledges for SDL even up till just months ago, you may even still be offering them if people email your company. This for a project that is out of money. The legality of doing so is questionable to say the least. You said you would no longer accept refund requests for a project that appears to have a contractual obligation to continue to allow (see KS ToS). That is not a complete list. I believe what Rob is saying is you have an obligation (also see ks ToS) to communicate honestly and effectively with backers. Doing so on facebook does not count, doing so only when you are working on deals, new KS, also does not count.
The last time you communicated with us was when you wanted us not to sink your Starfinder KS. Honestly this seems to be what you are doing again, the AG report comes out and you are working on deals for acquisition or credit and with IDW, no doubt consumer rage is not helping, but your history is only speaking when it benefits you and only so much as to silence us and furthermore the communication you give us is generally inaccurate.The two times you said you were waiting for proofs we now know was not true, as you had not the money to order production to begin with. How can you expect us to believe you after all of this?
That's the key for me (as someone with no money on the hook admitedly as I didn't luckily back the Starfinder KS). ND/SPM communicate only when it suits them and only to put out fires of their own making that may affect their ability to repeat the cycle of promise/crowdfund/delay that pays for their ongoing existence despite delivering few products promised in return.
Nail. Head. Hit.
They made a lot of promises when they show up hat in hand, but once they get the money past the chargeback period, silence. Pathetic.
SPM formed ND in conjunction with Cypher Studios specifically to work on Robotech Tactics. To say that the same people in the same location doing the same job is "unrelated" just because a different bank account is on the paycheck (signed by the same boss) is naive at best. Now I don't think that they're the main culprit in the failure of the Robotech project but the warning signs were there in that their previous project RK was already behind and they had a serious lack of communication with palladium. Their instantly dropping all communication a day or two after the end of crowdfunding to the surprise of all (including Palladium) and the 3d file format incompatibility aren't coincidences given their troubles both before and especially since.
I would like to see the source of that. There was an update on that old Kickstarter talking specifically about this, or are those theories coming from elsewhere ?
Which part would you like to see the source of?
Which part ? Well...about everything you claim happened...or do you mean it's actually in separate, differents parts scattered around ?
Here are the missing interventions of John Candice :
Spoiler:
John Starck Cadice Eric Lan The product we initially got was low quality and we returned it to have it remade - we announced it at the time - the overarching promises from our manufacturer did not meet spec- delaying our delivery and costing money. The product since then meets a very good standard, anything that people objected to, we have replaced
John Starck Cadice Derek Allgire no, that is accurate, we did not disclose our external search for financing and investment. but I would be HUGELY irresponsible to inflate or state something that is not secure as of yet - but I am confident. Ill let the proof be in the message
John Starck Cadice Guys
I'm trying to engage here with "initial" off the cuff and raw conversation. We are heads down working on a solution that is near fruition. If our credibility is shot to you, disregard. But it does not serve me to take slings and arrows for fun - I am hopeful and diligently working to fulfill this projects and others across many fronts. Official "announcements" and other information will be pushed to the KS - and to the broader backing groups.
John Starck Cadice Kreoss Prime I know
The "running silent" is more a condition of having to wipe out our marketing team, and getting stretched thin on the primary objective - which is to sort out our solution to getting this all made and the continuation of business functions as necessary.
Also, here are some interesting interventions of our friend JohnHwang and Tom Anders, the guy from Impact Miniatures :
Spoiler:
John Hwang Again, if you have time to respond on FB, you have time to properly inform ALL of your KS backers with actual, official Updates. Do that. That's what you promised when you took their money.
Tom Anders
John Hwang Okay going to start by saying ... as a CPA and 41 time KS project creator ... I'm not defending what was done by JSC and ND/SPM. I honestly believe if they were run the way I run my projects ND/SPM would not be at this point (but it is easy to be a backseat driver when you have limited information). However ... with that said ... JSC has stated he is a few days away from having the signatures on the documents that would allow him to post the actual official update you are requesting. At this point all he can post in an update would be "still working stay tuned" which at this point given the massive silence across all the projects would probably be worse than more silence. On Facebook ... he can say that without the immediate uproar. In a way JSC believe he has a helicopter coming with a massive load of water that will extinguish the large fire very soon ... so he's running around the edge of the fire trying to keep it from getting larger. As a strategy ... its an interesting one ... but I can understand what he is trying to do. I'm not sure how well it is working but I do get what he is doing right now.
I understand John Hwang that you disagree with that method but the point JSC is trying to make (mileage may vary) is that no official announcement can be made just yet but he believes it is coming very soon.
John Hwang Tom Anders If that is true, great! I look forward to the Update.
I'm simply noting that he hasn't said anything new, and that this isn't really the best forum for communicating material news to backers.
Tom Anders
John Hwang I 100% agree with everything you said. I think its that JSC doesn't have anything material he can say yet. He believes that ink will be drying very soon on the dotted line and then he will have the big water dump on the fire for everyone.
I can also acknowledge that a lot of words of almost there ... shipping soon ... etc have been said since 2016. So it is up to each person to decide how much mileage the upcoming big reveal has. However ... I do get that he is hoping by saying on unofficial things like this FB group that the big reveal is coming that he gets a few days breathing room to get it finalized.
...which is good to remember, in these confusing times.
Wait and see these "good news", thus.
2018/11/16 01:14:31
Subject: Soda Pop Miniatures, (Super Dungeon Explore Legends, response to AG complaint)
Which part ? Well...about everything you claim happened...or do you mean it's actually in separate, differents parts scattered around ?
For a project from 2013 that involved three companies, had 230+ official updates, over 400 unofficial "murmur" updates, 100,000+ kickstarter comments, three dakka threads totaling over 300 pages, dozens of mostly deleted Palladium complaint threads, and dozens of interviews both video and written... yes... the proof is indeed about as scattered as it could get. Let's start with the basic premise... you said SPM had nothing to do with Robotech which is why I mentioned that Ninja Division was formed from Soda Pop and Cypher. Do you accept that or need proof?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/11/16 01:18:34
We Munch for Macragge! FOR THE EMPRUH! Cheesesticks and Humus!
2018/11/16 01:28:42
Subject: Soda Pop Miniatures, (Super Dungeon Explore Legends, response to AG complaint)
Which part ? Well...about everything you claim happened...or do you mean it's actually in separate, differents parts scattered around ?
For a project from 2013 that involved three companies, had 230+ official updates, over 400 unofficial "murmur" updates, 100,000+ kickstarter comments, three dakka threads totaling over 300 pages, dozens of mostly deleted Palladium complaint threads, and dozens of interviews both video and written... yes... the proof is indeed about as scattered as it could get. Let's start with the basic premise... you said SPM had nothing to do with Robotech which is why I mentioned that Ninja Division was formed from Soda Pop and Cypher. Do you accept that or need proof?
Well yes, I would like to see the proof ...you seem to claim something very solid and undisputable in the post you made, so I was genuinely interested to read where it was specifically explained about that Robotech Kickstarter fiasco, since I didn't know of it before it became "famous" (I didn't pledge and didn't even know it existed at that time). I understand it's a mess to find whom says what, which is why I thought you would point those out for me, since it seemed something really obvious and easy to find for you. Now it looks like it's not that easy or obvious in the end.
2018/11/16 01:38:29
Subject: Soda Pop Miniatures, (Super Dungeon Explore Legends, response to AG complaint)
Sarouan wrote: Well yes, I would like to see the proof ...you seem to claim something very solid and undisputable in the post you made, so I was genuinely interested to read where it was specifically explained about that Robotech Kickstarter fiasco, since I didn't know of it before it became "famous" (I didn't pledge and didn't even know it existed at that time). I understand it's a mess to find whom says what, which is why I thought you would point those out for me, since it seemed something really obvious and easy to find for you. Now it looks like it's not that easy or obvious in the end.
No worries as that is actually the easiest one to prove. I remember that one of several places it was mentioned was during an Adepticon video interview the year of the kickstarter. If you don't believe me, maybe you'll believe John Cadice with his deep, silky voice explaining how Ninja Division was formed.
We Munch for Macragge! FOR THE EMPRUH! Cheesesticks and Humus!
2019/01/08 14:16:20
Subject: Re:Soda Pop Miniatures, (Super Dungeon Explore Legends, response to AG complaint)
WYVERN GAMING LEAVES NINJA DIVISION FOR IMPRESSIONS
Takes 'Cthulhu' With It
Posted by William Niebling on January 7, 2019 @ 1:01 pm CT
Wyvern Gaming is ending its relationship with Ninja Division and entering a new partnership with Impressions to handle the distribution of its titles into the trade.
The shift includes the second edition of Cthulhu: A Deck Building Game and Short Order Hero, which will both be available from Impressions starting in April, followed by Sojourn and The Horror in Dunwich expansion for Cthulhu in May and the release of Onami into the trade in June.
Cthulhu: A Deck Building Game was distributed through Ninja Division following a successful Kickstarter campaign in 2016 (see “Ninja Division Gets Rights to ‘Cthulhu: A Deck Building Game’”). In this cooperative deck building game, players must work together to stop the evil machinations of the Elder Gods. The new edition will include some corrections, an updated rulebook, and new card templates. For 1 to 6 players. MSRP is $59.99.
The first expansion for Cthulhu: A Deck Building Game will be the stand-alone set The Horror of Dunwich. This set shifts the action to the mysteriously disturbing town of Dunwich and the “horror” that lives within it. It can be played on its own or combined with the original game. MSRP is $59.99.
Short Order Hero puts players in the shoes of short-order cooks competing for the only job opening at a “greasy spoon” diner. Players race to serve up the best meals they can while sabotaging the efforts of their rivals. Short Order Hero features artwork by Walt Disney and Warner Bros. alum Greg Wray. For 2 to 5 players. MSRP is $24.99.
In Sojourn, a solitaire game, the player must try to recover the fragments of their broken time machine, scattered throughout history, and reassemble it before they are lost in time forever. MSRP is $24.99.
Onami was part of Wyvern’s original deal with Ninja Division (see the link above for details), but the game was never released into distribution. Wyvern’s new relationship with Impression will enable them to release the game into the trade starting in June. MSRP is $29.99.
That is probably their most well-known partnered studio at this time. (after the loss of My Little Pony: Tales of Equestria)
Not looking good for an 'angel' to come in and save them if they have seemingly stopped all corporate function since october on all fronts.
Just wanted to check in and let you know that with the holidays, I do not foresee being able to check in with our Licensing Manager or Execs for news until after the new year. I will follow up with them & this thread on Monday, January 8th, 2019.
So we will see what we hear out of Paizo.
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2019/01/08 16:41:19
Subject: Soda Pop Miniatures, (Super Dungeon Explore Legends, response to AG complaint)
Feel sorry for Paizo but at the same time there was info out there about ND at that time. Hopefully the announcement is something positive for all the backers though.
2019/01/08 23:52:57
Subject: Re:Soda Pop Miniatures, (Super Dungeon Explore Legends, response to AG complaint)
Just wanted to check in and let you know that with the holidays, I do not foresee being able to check in with our Licensing Manager or Execs for news until after the new year. I will follow up with them & this thread on Monday, January 8th, 2019.
So we will see what we hear out of Paizo.
Nothing. It got kicked down the street until the next licensing meeting on an unspecified day.
We Munch for Macragge! FOR THE EMPRUH! Cheesesticks and Humus!
2019/01/09 06:04:28
Subject: Soda Pop Miniatures, (Super Dungeon Explore Legends, response to AG complaint)
Sounds like the promised update from Archon about SP/ND not paying them for production back in November. Wouldn't be surprised if ND is telling them not to say anything public as it might spook an investor that's totally about to give ND money so they can pay people.
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