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 Marmatag wrote:
Trying to make a good 50 PL list for GK.

Thinking:

Grand Master Nemesis Dreadknight
3x Strike Squads, Falchions on everything except Justicars
3x Razorbacks, 3x twin assault cannons

Thats about as good as it gets.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 daedalus wrote:
I posted this elsewhere, but I just watched a GMDK deep strike and immediately get taken down to one wound remaining on the GK player's turn from a squad of Dark Reapers using the Forwarned stratagem.

Just something else to look forward to with your "Deep Strike is Our Primary Gimmick" army.

Frankly, I wasn't sure how to play GK at this point beyond load up on dreadknights and shove down throat. I don't honestly know what you do against eldar at this point.

Drop your grand masters and use the +1 invo save strategem - and reroll a failed 3++. That's all you can do. It could go really bad for him if you can be a boss with those 3++ saves.

I believe the +1 strategem has to be used at the start of the turn, the unit is not on the board yet and can't be affected by it (AFAIK)

Godeskian wrote:
I believe the +1 strategem has to be used at the start of the turn, the unit is not on the board yet and can't be affected by it (AFAIK)

There's nothing in the rule that says the chosen character must be on the board.

Spartacus wrote:

Godeskian wrote:
I believe the +1 strategem has to be used at the start of the turn, the unit is not on the board yet and can't be affected by it (AFAIK)

There's nothing in the rule that says the chosen character must be on the board.

No, but I'm pretty sure there's something in the main rules that says that units 'off the board' such as in transports or deep strike cannot effect, nor can be effected by anything on the board. I'll dig up my rulebook when I get home and report back.

^^

I wouldn't consider a stratagem to be an 'on the board' effect by default for starters, but yeah if there's something in the big rules I'd be keen to see.

I know there are several stratagems/power/abilities/wargear pieces which do specify the targeted/chosen model must be 'on the battlefield'. In the absence of that condition I would consider units which are off the battlefield to be fair game.

Just cast sanctuary instead.

 greyknight12 wrote:
With their 4++ (3++ with sanctuary or strategems), GMDK are probably a better bet than an Imperial knight. I’ve had good results with them shrugging off lascannons, plus their re-roll ones bubble and FTTF are a good force multiplier. With your paladins, I would drop them all down to 3 man units, that way you maximize the number of models with a 2+ WS. It will also give you more board control and 9 2+/5++ wounds is difficult enough to shift, especially with your bigger stuff bearing down on your opponent’s high value units.

I had thought about 3 man squads but was afraid to lose the psilencers. The only reason I don't use GMDK is because I think the model is bad looking. I'm more of a rule of cool player than a practicality player lol.

I will consider that though!

Yeah it isn't that 3 man squads are bad (they're actually great), but you sometimes need Psilencers.

When do you "need" psilencers? Psilencers are better than Psycannons or Incinerators, but that doesn't actually make them good.

Within 12 inches, with the -1 penalty for moving they're only slightly better than the free Stormbolter for TDA units, and for PA units I actually would prefer to keep the melee weapon than get that minor shooting upgrade.

If your choice is two 3 man groups of Paladins or one 5 man group of Paladins with 2 Psilencers, then the Mortal Wound from an extra Smite is going to completely eclipse the marginal Psilencer shooting "upgrade".

With the numbers as they are our heavy weapons just aren't worth bringing outside a Dreadknight.

So I've been having a doozy of a time getting a good list together using what units I want. I want to win, obviously, but I want to use what I think is cool, too. This is what I have so far. Fyi, I really don't want to run any Dreadknights.

Grey Knights - Vanguard Detachment
Grandmaster Voldus
-- Sanctuary, Gate of Infinity, Purge Soul
Apothecary
-- Daemonhammer, Sanctuary
Brotherhood Ancient
-- Banner of Refining Flame, Falchion, Gate of Infinity
Paladin Squad
-- Paragon with Daemonhammer
-- 3x with Falchions, Hammerhand
Paladin Squad
-- Paragon with Daemonhammer
-- 3x with Falchions, Hammerhand

Grey Knights - Vanguard Detachment
Brother-Captain -WARLORD-
-- Daemonhammer, Purge Soul, First to the Fray
Doomglaive Dreadnought
-- Stormbolter, Heavy Psycannon, Gate of Infinity
Doomglaive Dreadnought
-- Stormbolter, Heavy Psycannon, Gate of Infinity
Purifier Squad
-- 4x with Falchions, Knight of the Flame with Halberd
Purifier Squad
-- 4x with Falchions, Knight of the Flame with Halberd
Stormraven
-- Hurricane Bolters, Twin-Lascannon, Twin-Multimelta

Now, I'm aware that Purifiers aren't the best, but I don't really mind. I like em too much. The problem I'm running into is that the deployment is:
--Stormraven carrying
----Both Purifiers
----Brotherhood Captain
----Doomglaive #1

While doomglaive 2 sits off to the side? Seems rather crazy if I don't get first turn.

What should I change? The top Vanguard is nearly non-malleable, I already have all those dudes built and ready to go, and I have a doomglaive on order as well.

It's not that psilencers are needed. It was more since the points cost was so low the upgrade was worth it. I am going to give the 3 man squads a shot and see how it goes.

Doomglaives really do some heavy lifting they have been my superstars so far. Them and Draigo that is.

Maybe it's a latent tumor or recent head injury or something I haven't noticed, but I'm starting to come around to the notion of ML/2xLC dreadnoughts.

At this point, it pretty consistently gives a higher anti-tank damage yield than the 4xAC build we lost does.

And, if you're going for pure anti-tank alone, you get slightly more firepower with two of those compared to a stormraven for about the same price.

 TheMostWize wrote:
It's not that psilencers are needed. It was more since the points cost was so low the upgrade was worth it. I am going to give the 3 man squads a shot and see how it goes.

Just remember that paladins pay the "terminator" cost for weapons, so it's 10 pts vs. 4 pts for the power armored guys.

I've personally been wondering about spamming paladins myself and going for pure survivability in my list; for 2.5X the points a paladin has 6X the survivability of a PAGK against small arms (with no AP) and an invulnerable save. We can't hit as hard force on force as anyone anyway, so MSU and holding objectives seems to be a reasonable strategy; our units individually hit hard enough not to get bullied off an objective by anything insignificant. Just thinking out loud here:
Comparison (Paladins vs Strike squads)
-165 pts Paladin squad
9 T4 2+/5++ wounds
6/12 bolter shots
9 CC/12 falchion attacks
1 smite/santic power

-168 pts Strike squad
8 T4 3+ wounds
16/32 bolter shots
8 CC/16 falchion attacks
1.5 smite/santic power (assuming 5-man squads)

The strike squad has the advantage of being OBSEC as well. It has slightly more melee power when you equip falchions, and twice the ranged attacks. The paladins are over twice as durable against AP0 weapons; however despite the invulnerable saves they can lose more capability to high damage weapons than their power armored counterparts (though D3 and less weapons end up being the same, and you have a 1/3 chance of a paladin surviving a lascannon that makes it through their 5++ due to a low damage roll). So far I've been sticking with a mix of strikes and interceptors for the flexibility and damage output, but a paladin list could definitely do well against something that doesn't have a lot of high-end firepower.

Yea my 2 games have been against Chaos and Chaos and Orks in a 2v2 game. The first game I basically tabled my Chaos opponent.

Second game it was me and some Imperial guard who admittedly ended not really doing much which was surprising. The alpha strike with terminators and doomglaives can be devastating. Ended up killing a whole squad of 10 flashgitz with 9 ammo runts and Draigo charged and killed a Predator.

That was a 10 Paladins, Draigo and a Doomglaive. They then survived an entire opponents round of shooting which was 10 chaos terminators a land raider and a forgefiend.

Admittedly none of the people in my group are power gamers so take my experience with a grain of salt. All the being said I think 3 man squads would likely be entirely resilient enough to survive small arms shooting. You also create some target saturation requiring firepower to be split more which helps survivability as well in a round about way.

Just came up with this idea for 2k.

Vanguard
- Draigo
- 3x Paladin (Hammer/Falchions)
- 3x Paladin (Hammer/Falchions)
- Doomglaive
- Stormraven

Vanguard
- Voldus
- 3x Paladin (Hammer/Falchions)
- 3x Paladin (Relic Halberd/Falchions)
- Doomglaive
- Stormraven

Or no ravens and a Knight since I own the kit already.

 daedalus wrote:
At this point, it pretty consistently gives a higher anti-tank damage yield than the 4xAC build we lost does.

Um, we haven't lost anything? We can still take Rifleman Dreads. You just use the index for loadout and the codex for point cost.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/07/05/codexes-your-questions-answered-july-5gw-homepage-post-2/

Glad you're getting good results from the LC/ML though. I've been considering grabbing a couple Missile Launchers to add to my Venerable blokes for variety. The loadout seems to pair quite nicely with Astral Aim.

Vortenger wrote:

 daedalus wrote:
At this point, it pretty consistently gives a higher anti-tank damage yield than the 4xAC build we lost does.

Um, we haven't lost anything? We can still take Rifleman Dreads. You just use the index for loadout and the codex for point cost.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/07/05/codexes-your-questions-answered-july-5gw-homepage-post-2/

Yeah, yeah, I know. I don't think most tournaments abide by that though, and I ripped the bandaid off for my personal games. The mathhammer actually works out better for the LC/ML dread anyway than for a bunch of regular AC in this edition for anti-tank. Haven't run it against anything else.

Glad you're getting good results from the LC/ML though. I've been considering grabbing a couple Missile Launchers to add to my Venerable blokes for variety. The loadout seems to pair quite nicely with Astral Aim.

It's more expensive than it should be for the number of wounds you get, but that could be said for anything in the codex.

 greyknight12 wrote:

 TheMostWize wrote:
It's not that psilencers are needed. It was more since the points cost was so low the upgrade was worth it. I am going to give the 3 man squads a shot and see how it goes.

Just remember that paladins pay the "terminator" cost for weapons, so it's 10 pts vs. 4 pts for the power armored guys.

I've personally been wondering about spamming paladins myself and going for pure survivability in my list; for 2.5X the points a paladin has 6X the survivability of a PAGK against small arms (with no AP) and an invulnerable save. We can't hit as hard force on force as anyone anyway, so MSU and holding objectives seems to be a reasonable strategy; our units individually hit hard enough not to get bullied off an objective by anything insignificant. Just thinking out loud here:
Comparison (Paladins vs Strike squads)
-165 pts Paladin squad
9 T4 2+/5++ wounds
6/12 bolter shots
9 CC/12 falchion attacks
1 smite/santic power

-168 pts Strike squad
8 T4 3+ wounds
16/32 bolter shots
8 CC/16 falchion attacks
1.5 smite/santic power (assuming 5-man squads)

The strike squad has the advantage of being OBSEC as well. It has slightly more melee power when you equip falchions, and twice the ranged attacks. The paladins are over twice as durable against AP0 weapons; however despite the invulnerable saves they can lose more capability to high damage weapons than their power armored counterparts (though D3 and less weapons end up being the same, and you have a 1/3 chance of a paladin surviving a lascannon that makes it through their 5++ due to a low damage roll). So far I've been sticking with a mix of strikes and interceptors for the flexibility and damage output, but a paladin list could definitely do well against something that doesn't have a lot of high-end firepower.

I like the direct comparison.

One thing to keep in mind is that something like Objective Secured for a unit like the Strike Squad only matters near the last turn if they can't be killed. The unit is very much a glass cannon. If the opponent thought it would claim an objective, it would be dead the moment they glanced at it.

I also experimented with spamming the Psilencer with Paladin squads because of their capability to do so compared to the rest of the army outside Purgator squads. If you do the typical striking your Grandmaster Dread with the reroll charges, it can go fantastically assuming the opponents screening hasn't worked out or has been partly destroyed.

With smite being limited to 3 casts in chapter approved, do you think grwy knigjts will be bumped up to d3 vs non demon and just keep 3 against demon or will they just be forgotten.

Point me to a source your rumor originates from.

And I bet GK will be forgotten.

If it's accompanied by another rule saying that Grey Knights can cast the same power up to 3 times then I'd say its a fair trade off.

But if not, then the last pathetic excuse of Grey Knights being a psyker army goes away. People always say "Stop complaining, you can cast smite with everybody". Completely forgetting that our Smite sucks, and now we might be losing even that.

Yeah this isn't even in the leaks from Faeit.

Something like relentless would be nice to have on terminators, otherwise I’m just hoping for some points cuts. I think the big problem right now is that we don’t have anyone at GW or any of their TO consultants who are enthusiastic enough about GK to give us the death guard treatment and really flesh out the fluff and army mechanics.

While we are wishlisting for stuff - I saw someone a while back propose a ressurection of the 'True Grit' rule for GK Storm Bolters, from the old Daemonhunters codex.

It could be applied to 8th Edition by perhaps making Storm Bolters 'Pistol' type weapons while in the fight phase. This would help to deal with mass infantry, particularly if Falchions go up in pts. It also keeps the same vibe as the original rule by improving the output of GK's in prolonged combats.

Honestly would two attacks on Purifiers be too much to ask for? I miss that a lot.

Since other codices are getting 4th ed rules, I definitely wouldn’t mind some Daemonhunters throwbacks:
True grit for our storm bolters (+1 attack)
Psycannons/psybolt ammo ignores invul saves
Shrouding (3D6x3=range of your weapons when shooting at GK)

Other old school options:
Orbital bombardments as heavy support choices
Inquisition in our codex
Dreadknights can shunt again
Everyone can start in reserve

There’s a lot of fluffy options for us, someone just needs to take the time and effort to port them into 8th.

 greyknight12 wrote:
Something like relentless would be nice to have on terminators, otherwise I’m just hoping for some points cuts. I think the big problem right now is that we don’t have anyone at GW or any of their TO consultants who are enthusiastic enough about GK to give us the death guard treatment and really flesh out the fluff and army mechanics.

Ding ding ding ding, I believe this is actually one of two critical issues. Notice AM got an amazing (and I don't mean just powerful but fluffy and cohesive) Codex and their big champ is Reecius.

True Grit would probably be modeled as treating Storm Bolters as pistols
Ignoring invuln saves again would be GREAT, and there's definitely a precedent for it in this edition so it wouldn't have been that hard to give it to us... maybe it's because we have such a high rate of fire? Make it a 2 CP strategem to let our special weapons ignore invulns for a turn...
Shrouding would just be -1 outside of 12", like every other version of that rule has become.

Too bad we've already got our codex, so we're unlikely to see any of this...

It is exceptionally strange that Relentless or some equivalent didn't make it into this edition. Terminators, Vehicles, etc... have always ignored the penalty for moving and shooting heavy weapons. Yet suddenly they suffer the same penalties as a couple guardsmen lugging around a tripod mounted autocannon...

Agreed. One ray of hope is that all Termie units share the 'TERMINATOR' keyword. They could pass a universal rule in a chapter approved to enact something like this, much like the 'FLY' keyword has universal implications. I'm not holding my breath but who knows...

Is chapter approved going to do anything for us? I only play grey knights and us falling behind this fast is making this grown man wanna cry.

I want them to do tons of little changes to make my knights fluffy and actually hold those own against other higher teir armies. But I won't be surprised at all if we get nothing more than a foot note in chapter approved for some rule we don't care about and that's it. We just get forgotten and pushed aside for the bigger more popular armies