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OK well that's clearing things up a lot. If you haven't played ITC missions at all then you will have trouble relating to where I am coming from. You keep assuming secondaries are something simple to achieve that's not the core problem. The whole issue with GSC in ITC is they hand over VP's so easily it's nuts, while the enemy will tailor their army so it doesn't give away secondaries. That means we are stuck trying to grab board control objectives like recon. If I go for recon I need to be in 4 quarters with 4 units for 4 turns to max it out. Thats a long ass time to survive with some of the lists out there.
Let me break it down for you another way, when making an army for the ITC format, you can't just consider how you will kill enemy units, thats only part of it. You also need to look through the entire list of secondaries and tailor your own army so that it doesn't give up those VP's at all, or so it short changes the opponent. So for example one might intentionally run only 3 units with 7 or more wounds so the enemy can only ever get 3 points for big game hunter instead of the maximum 4. If your list does allow for 4 of big game hunter you would want those units to be durable as possible. Like take for instance eldar fliers, after hit mods they become quite durable, so not only are they good units but they also become a trap for secondaries.
Our army gives up, butchers bill, reaper, marked for death, head hunter and possibly big game hunter like a bad joke. Since we basically rely on reserves to be mobile and durable we also give up board control easier then you would think in order to try to get into assault. It's easy to say throw away lines like, reserve 75% of your army and crush them at once on turn 2, but any good tournament list with a competent general is going to zone you back and feed you sub-optimal targets in the process.
Look over that DW list I shared and tell me which secondaries you think are easy to get from it. The obvious choices to me are recon, behind enemy lines and ground control. The major issue is not being tabled in 4 turns while you sacrifice your units spreading out to get those. Turn 1 we basically are not scoring them due to reserves, or we do attempt to score those but we now are not removing the loyal 32.
This is why I have asked you to post a list you think would beat the DW army I posted in the ITC format. What secondaries would you go for and how? Will that list still be TAC?
That is why I said assume they're going to get 12 secondaries. Killing eighty GEQ and four units is easy, and there are enough gsc characters running around that they'll get a few of them somewhere during the match.
The flip side is that he also has a bunch of characters and four vet units to kill. The watchmaster, draigo, and the GMNGK all qualify for full Kingslayer points if they're the warlord. If they're not, you either have to accept 11 points and nab an extra round of holding more objectives or go for something a little more awkward like Old School and hope for that last turn kill (it should be pretty achievable to kill a screen unit T1, kill a warlord that's not one of the tough characters, and get something into his DZ). You're going to have to deal with the vet units and his characters anyway.
I wouldn't aim for more than one of the non-murder ones. Recon requires four units, which is doable, but needing to do it on four turns is risky. Behind Enemy Lines is start of your turn (after he gets a lovely chance to kill that unit) and requires four out of the five available turns (since there's not much you can get into his DZ before T1 starts, and on T1 is awkward), so is also iffy. Ground Control is end of game, so it's inherently risky, as you just might not have four units in the right spots (or at all if the game's particularly bloody). ITC obviously wants you to play in a certain way, so why fight it?
How are you giving up board control vs that DW list, though? He wants to (and you said did) castle up to benefit from his auras. If he moves it cuts his firepower in half (and foot marines are speed 6", anyway, so the deathball isn't going anywhere quickly). He can run the guard squads out to nab objectives, zone you back, and/or deny you landing areas, but it's super important to kill them T1 anyway (and getting most of them should be doable with whatever screen clearing mortars/wyverns/etc. you brought to actually be able to DS stuff when the 32 are everywhere). That leaves his beatstick characters, but if they're off holding objectives they're not chopping anything up, so you have the liberty of swarming whichever you want with your superior numbers.
As for a list, I default to four full units of acolytes with saws and flamers (saws obviously aren't useful here, but you need them for knights/vehicles), some BB blobs, the normal slew of characters, and allied officers, objective holders, and mortars/wyverns/whatever your preference is for screen clearance.
Assuming they will just grab 12 secondaries is like forfeiting the game. You essentially are playing for the tie at that point only the 1:15:00 of time on your side of the clock is going to kill you because your deploying and moving 150+ models and removing casualties. That's another factor in this problem, he gets all his points efficiently on the clock and in the early rounds, while I need to spend precious time removing bubble wrap and trying to get into assault in the the later turns.
not sure why you don't understand how he can grab board control. He can't grab 100% of the table, but he doesn't need to. As a guard player myself I can tell you how comically easy it is for a few infantry squads and commanders to zone back the table an annoying amount. Those guardsmen are not easily removed for us BTW. Run some math, a 10 man infantry unit with prepared positions or take cover would require 18 mortars to kill or 4 wyverns... that's terrible and it still leaves 20 infantry lol. This is why I keep asking you to post a list rather then give this vague abstract advice. Telling me to just kill his 4 vet squads and all the GK characters is absurd advice btw, you may as well saved your breath and just told me to table him because that's what that amounts to.
I appreciate your positivity, but I think GSC really is starting at a huge disadvantage against certain lists in the ITC format which sucks for me. In the CA18 missions I think we are incredibly impressive as an army which is great. I am sure it is possible to pull a win in the format, but playing 3+ timed games in a row with 200 models in that condition, against those odds just doesn't seem very appealing.
Hazzer22 wrote: As annoying as the new infiltrators are I think we should look back to the original intent of this thread and think of some tactics to counter them. Raging wont do any good even though I was extremely salty when I first saw them.
So my first thought was stealers, now they aren't a perfect solution but we may be able to slingshot them depending how the opponent deploys. I can see the major issue with this being against things like Guiliman castles with infiltrators as the outer ring.
Finding a reliable source of damage 2 with reasonable ap isn't easy even with access to allies, we need to find a dissie ravager equivalent...
Any suggestions anyone?
Umm Kellermorph......
Crazy Idea a Truck with a unit of 5-9 Acolytes and a Kellermorph. Rush forward (maby even use Perfect ambush on first turn to boos it d6") to get to the offending sniper screen. Then unload on them..... Even if the truck gets popped you still have a good CC unit and the kellermorph to deal with them.
Unfortunately the kelermorph doesn't do the job from DS because they screen out 12". But maybe in a truck, problem is they're just so squishy and someone will obviously target a transport with a character in it, and even if it does get to them a kelermorph only averages 2-3 dead primaris a turn and that's without cover!
If the Heavy Mortar would do 2D6 hits instead of just D6, I would consider it. But Brood Brothers weapons teams with mortars are just superior otherwise.
So if you want to run a Ridgerunner I would recommend it with MSL and Flare laucher for all around things (or escort bikes) or Heavy Mining Laser and Survey Augur for big game hunting.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/03/03 19:01:27
Allied brood brothers with plasma and autocannons seems like the best answer to primaris Marines to me. That or executioner tank commanders if you're bringing a significant number of vehicles.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/03/03 19:07:23
Fully Painted Armies: 2200pts Orks 1000pts Space Marines 1200pts Tau 2500pts Blood Angels 3500pts Imperial Guard/Renegades and 1700pts Daemons 450pts Imperial Knights
DoomMouse wrote: Allied brood brothers with plasma and autocannons seems like the best answer to primaris Marines to me. That or executioner tank commanders if you're bringing a significant number of vehicles.
Interesting you say this, there's some strong indicators that mech lists might become viable again, if you look at the results from the Prague open chimera spam did really well, now this is ETC and ITC is a whole different beast but Brood Bros in chimeras with supporting executioner commanders is an idea?...
DoomMouse wrote: Allied brood brothers with plasma and autocannons seems like the best answer to primaris Marines to me. That or executioner tank commanders if you're bringing a significant number of vehicles.
Interesting you say this, there's some strong indicators that mech lists might become viable again, if you look at the results from the Prague open chimera spam did really well, now this is ETC and ITC is a whole different beast but Brood Bros in chimeras with supporting executioner commanders is an idea?...
It'd be a huge boon to a mech guard list to have some decent counter-punch units to murder the units that run up to tag tanks. I can say that from experience running mech guard! Being able to kill something like shining Spears in melee would be great.
It's a bit of a trade off though, the regimental tactics and strats, specialist detachments and 'old grudges' warlord trait really boost a guard mech force.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/03/03 20:40:19
Fully Painted Armies: 2200pts Orks 1000pts Space Marines 1200pts Tau 2500pts Blood Angels 3500pts Imperial Guard/Renegades and 1700pts Daemons 450pts Imperial Knights
Jrandom wrote: Here is a list that took 2nd place at a major.
Yeah I've heard people mention this, namely chapter tactics podcast, seems like a good sign but I can't help but feel that this win might have been partially due to the currently unknown nature of gsc...I honestly hope not but only time will tell
Jrandom wrote: Here is a list that took 2nd place at a major.
Very intrestring list but did he rely on the dice luck to get Acolyte hybrids and abberants in?
Probably one got D6 stratagem, really would like to see a game with this list, really like it.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/03/03 21:21:13
Jrandom wrote: Here is a list that took 2nd place at a major.
Very intrestring list but did he rely on the dice luck to get Acolyte hybrids and abberants in?
Probably one got D6 stratagem, really would like to see a game with this list, really like it.
Agreed. I faced a double castellan + gallant and rusty 17 last week with 2 acolyte blobs the same as this guys and mine were C4AE, had a clamavus nearby and brrodsurge and I still failed both 7" rerollable charges (82% chance each...) so there's no way this was reliable across 5 games.
Assuming they will just grab 12 secondaries is like forfeiting the game. You essentially are playing for the tie at that point only the 1:15:00 of time on your side of the clock is going to kill you because your deploying and moving 150+ models and removing casualties. That's another factor in this problem, he gets all his points efficiently on the clock and in the early rounds, while I need to spend precious time removing bubble wrap and trying to get into assault in the the later turns.
not sure why you don't understand how he can grab board control. He can't grab 100% of the table, but he doesn't need to. As a guard player myself I can tell you how comically easy it is for a few infantry squads and commanders to zone back the table an annoying amount. Those guardsmen are not easily removed for us BTW. Run some math, a 10 man infantry unit with prepared positions or take cover would require 18 mortars to kill or 4 wyverns... that's terrible and it still leaves 20 infantry lol. This is why I keep asking you to post a list rather then give this vague abstract advice. Telling me to just kill his 4 vet squads and all the GK characters is absurd advice btw, you may as well saved your breath and just told me to table him because that's what that amounts to.
I appreciate your positivity, but I think GSC really is starting at a huge disadvantage against certain lists in the ITC format which sucks for me. In the CA18 missions I think we are incredibly impressive as an army which is great. I am sure it is possible to pull a win in the format, but playing 3+ timed games in a row with 200 models in that condition, against those odds just doesn't seem very appealing.
Yeah, it takes 18 mortars to kill a squad, but it's not like that breaks the bank or that they stop being useful after T1 (they still do 7 wounds a turn to marine equivalents and 3 or 4 to 2+). A BB blob with FRFSRF that "They Came From Below"-ed forward (officer double moves up, then orders them) also wipes a squad (10 dead with strat for cover), and you can have up to three of them do so, depending on what you need. You'll lose the BB chaff in return, but that's what it's there for.
Then you go in for the meaty units, as described (and assuming dice are relatively average each acolyte squad should kill a vet squad, getting crippled in return). You do have to basically aim to kill all his infantry and a couple tough characters, but you can accomplish what you need to. I'm not saying it's going to be an easy sweep or anything, but it's doable. If the dice go against you and he gets auspex off and wipes a squad or you fail a few more charges than you should, you could easily be toast, though. No real way around that, it's a glass cannon army that relies on a few key rolls to succeed.
There's also not really a way around a horde army having lots of guys to activate. I'd definitely suggest movement trays, pre-counted dice lots, and plenty of practice if a clock's involved, but nothing's going to stop it being a lot to keep track of.
Jrandom wrote: Here is a list that took 2nd place at a major.
Very intrestring list but did he rely on the dice luck to get Acolyte hybrids and abberants in?
Probably burned 3 CP turn 2 and 3 to move 1d6" before charging a Rock Saw brood and the Abominants, and 2 CP to get the big flamer unit within 3".
5 Rock Saws likely dies on overwatch so he must had something successfully absorb it for them (Voidwyrm Patriarch), or manage to cast Mass Hypnosis.
Jrandom wrote: Here is a list that took 2nd place at a major.
Very intrestring list but did he rely on the dice luck to get Acolyte hybrids and abberants in?
Probably burned 3 CP turn 2 and 3 to move 1d6" before charging a Rock Saw brood and the Abominants, and 2 CP to get the big flamer unit within 3".
5 Rock Saws likely dies on overwatch so he must had something successfully absorb it for them (Voidwyrm Patriarch), or manage to cast Mass Hypnosis.
But he has 3 big units to DS, perfect ambush can only really happen 2 turns unless he was DSing first turn which I would assume he wasn't as it was pre-FAQ and even if he was it leaves the abominant on his own.
Likely a stupid situation, but, an idea that is currently doing the rounds is that the new Infiltrators can “destroy” blip marker units by preventing them from being setup.
Now, I don’t have the GSC codex, so can someone provide the wording regarding how a unit is selected and then setup from an ambush marker please? Are they setup as if reinforcements/reserves or are they considered to just be “revealed” as always being there?
I’m very much doubting that it is intended that the new Infiltrator Marines can do this, but, want to try and clear it up asap to prevent too many people getting carried away by the idea.
Apologies if this has already been covered and i missed it.
So with infiltrators destroying a blip - I think it's possible, but unlikely to happen.
Blips must be placed in deployment zone and first model deployed .just be within1" of the blip and the rest must be placed in coherency within deployment zone. New infiltrators can be placed 9" away from enemy deployment zone and prevent units appearing within 12". So my first impression is that maybe if the gsc player puts the blip right on the edge of the deployment zone then the infiltrators are 9" away and might prevent the first model from being deployed and breaking the blip. This could be avoided by putting blips an inch or two back from the edge of the deployment zone. Also I'm not sure how the infiltrators rule would interact with the gscfaq about units in blips being counted as on the table. Might need a closer reading of codex,faq and infiltrator rule.
Edit ninja'd thanks luke1705
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/03/05 12:41:42
Kapitan Montag wrote: So with infiltrators destroying a blip - I think it's possible, but unlikely to happen.
Blips must be placed in deployment zone and first model deployed .just be within1" of the blip and the rest must be placed in coherency within deployment zone. New infiltrators can be placed 9" away from enemy deployment zone and prevent units appearing within 12". So my first impression is that maybe if the gsc player puts the blip right on the edge of the deployment zone then the infiltrators are 9" away and might prevent the first model from being deployed and breaking the blip. This could be avoided by putting blips an inch or two back from the edge of the deployment zone. Also I'm not sure how the infiltrators rule would interact with the gscfaq about units in blips being counted as on the table. Might need a closer reading of codex,faq and infiltrator rule.
Edit ninja'd thanks luke1705
Ok, done some extra reading and a friend sent me the relevant bit of the codex regarding blips.
Also note, that the FAQ for ambush markers only relates to the fact that they count as being on the table for determining how many points/units you can then place into other “off the table” deep strike options.
Codex looks like it explicitly states that revealing a unit via am ambush marker counts them as arriving from reinforcements, though they can still move etc.
It looks like blips will get affected by the omi-scanner, so it’ll be a case of ensuring only fake/disposable units are placed on the deployment edge, or to hold everything back 3” (or 9-15” if you’re going second). Alternatively, could just not use the blip markers for certain units.
How good is the idea to use a horde walking style army with 150-200 models and rusted claw +1 to Save?
I think this would make a decent horde army, which is much tougher than most horde armies against anti-horde weapons with their 4+ Save.
Astmeister wrote: How good is the idea to use a horde walking style army with 150-200 models and rusted claw +1 to Save?
I think this would make a decent horde army, which is much tougher than most horde armies against anti-horde weapons with their 4+ Save.
Astmeister wrote: How good is the idea to use a horde walking style army with 150-200 models and rusted claw +1 to Save?
I think this would make a decent horde army, which is much tougher than most horde armies against anti-horde weapons with their 4+ Save.
Blue: in ambush..
Cyan: deployed but put in ambush after (stratagem).
Would do amazing in CA18 missions, in kill point centered formats though it's not going to do much.
It would be hilarious to watch this verse a tuned admech list with 1-2 units of castellens and cawl. I can tell you first hand rusted claw hates phosphor blasters. They can pretty much cut through all that in a few turns. Just one unit in shooty mode with the +1 to hit strat kills 85 in a volley, 101 with wrath of mars.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/03/05 18:38:33
Hello everyone, just got a quick rules question I would like to ask regarding the gsc codex and brood brothers.
So in a detachment if I take the regular Brood brother infantry squad (The gsc codex entry) and mix them in with other gsc units, do I still get full cp etc?.
Is it only if you take units outside of the codex and give them the brood brother keyword that the negative effects apply?
Jrandom wrote: Here is a list that took 2nd place at a major.
What major and format? Can we get the other lists?
It was the 7th annual Barrie Bash, an ITC Major. Someone with a subscription to the Best Coast Parrings App could provide more lists. I don’t currently subscribe (but I would if my army was ready for the field).
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/03/05 20:01:31
If I was running a horde list I’d probably take Twisted Helix instead. With a Clamavus and Broodsurge detachment warlord your neophytes and acolytes are trucking along at rerollable +3 advances. That’s comparable to Kraken Genestealers, but stronger and cheaper with shooting added.
Astmeister wrote: How good is the idea to use a horde walking style army with 150-200 models and rusted claw +1 to Save?
I think this would make a decent horde army, which is much tougher than most horde armies against anti-horde weapons with their 4+ Save.
Blue: in ambush..
Cyan: deployed but put in ambush after (stratagem).
Would do amazing in CA18 missions, in kill point centered formats though it's not going to do much.
It would be hilarious to watch this verse a tuned admech list with 1-2 units of castellens and cawl. I can tell you first hand rusted claw hates phosphor blasters. They can pretty much cut through all that in a few turns. Just one unit in shooty mode with the +1 to hit strat kills 85 in a volley, 101 with wrath of mars.
I believe castellans can get locked in close combat, right? 'perfect ambush' in combination with 'laying in wait' and maybe with 'mass hypnosis' and they're done. But that kind of shooting does suck, though. On the other hand, not a lot of 'winning' ad mech list in my area...
Badablack wrote: If I was running a horde list I’d probably take Twisted Helix instead. With a Clamavus and Broodsurge detachment warlord your neophytes and acolytes are trucking along at rerollable +3 advances. That’s comparable to Kraken Genestealers, but stronger and cheaper with shooting added.
That's only +2" (Clamavus +1, Broodsurge Iconward +1) but I agree 7" charges with a reroll are very doable esp with multiple medium sized units.
Shinzra wrote:Hello everyone, just got a quick rules question I would like to ask regarding the gsc codex and brood brothers.
So in a detachment if I take the regular Brood brother infantry squad (The gsc codex entry) and mix them in with other gsc units, do I still get full cp etc?.
Is it only if you take units outside of the codex and give them the brood brother keyword that the negative effects apply?
Correct. The restrictions on command points are for Brood Brothers detachments taken from Codex: Astra Militarum. (Check page 108).
That's only +2" (Clamavus +1, Broodsurge Iconward +1) but I agree 7" charges with a reroll are very doable esp with multiple medium sized units.
The Auger of The Insurgent trait is reroll charge or advance rolls for friendly Deliverance Broodsurge models in range. It's the Insidious Mindwyrm trait from Anointed Throng that adds +1''. Badablack is getting +3'' advance from the Clamavus' +1'' and Twisted Helix +2''.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2019/03/06 01:12:41
Astmeister wrote: How good is the idea to use a horde walking style army with 150-200 models and rusted claw +1 to Save?
I think this would make a decent horde army, which is much tougher than most horde armies against anti-horde weapons with their 4+ Save.
Blue: in ambush..
Cyan: deployed but put in ambush after (stratagem).
Would do amazing in CA18 missions, in kill point centered formats though it's not going to do much.
It would be hilarious to watch this verse a tuned admech list with 1-2 units of castellens and cawl. I can tell you first hand rusted claw hates phosphor blasters. They can pretty much cut through all that in a few turns. Just one unit in shooty mode with the +1 to hit strat kills 85 in a volley, 101 with wrath of mars.
I believe castellans can get locked in close combat, right? 'perfect ambush' in combination with 'laying in wait' and maybe with 'mass hypnosis' and they're done. But that kind of shooting does suck, though. On the other hand, not a lot of 'winning' ad mech list in my area...
Well keep in mind a unit of 6 with cawl is only 850, so they can easily drop in a Knight castellan or multiple gallants and a guard detachment to screen and provide CP all with an assassin sprinkled in just to be a dink. A calexus would make Mass Hyp a warp charge 9. The guard screen would keep them unengaged for a while as well.
I think people need to get used to running up against assassins. This doesn't just apply to us btw. 85 points ans 1 cp provides a crap load of utility.
1000pts Space Marines 
1200pts Tau 
2500pts Blood Angels 
3500pts Imperial Guard/Renegades 
and 1700pts Daemons 
450pts Imperial Knights 
