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Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






 LumenPraebeo wrote:
 the_scotsman wrote:
The imperium has never been depicted as sexist, and EVERY TIME someone tries to sneakily exclude women from some role by making that claim, gw goes ahead and makes it canonical that women are included in that role and they just hadn't put them in explicitly because gw tends to just depict everyone as male by default and female as an "attribute."


Only because most of the 40k player base is male. I don't think GW would have an issue or any hesitation in adding female space marines if they have strong reasons to believe it would expand their fans/player base and customers to a noticeable extent. Its like that G.I. Joe and Barbie documentary on Netflix. There's a reason why there are two separate toy lines. Most girls were not interested in G.I. Joe dolls, and so Barbie was invented, and most boys were not interested in Barbie, and so most of the marketing and predecessing toys in that line never bothered to cater to boys.

That being said; again, I'd be very interested in adding female Astartes to my collection.


My overall point here is: GW adds women, racial minorities, etc to keep politics OUT of their game.

The people trying to shove real-world politics into 40k are not primarily the group of people who think it'd be good to make the model range more inclusive. They're the people who, time and time again, attribute when GW excludes everything but white males from a canonical group out of ignorance/just forgetting about it to GW purposefully excluding them for canonical reasons.

The first time people actually noticed/got outraged at a black space marine was the original dawn of war, when one was added to the ultramarines primarily for the reason of making the two models look more distinctive on the game map, according to the developer (you went thru the whole tutorial of the game controlling the two of them, and when you clicked on one a little portrait showed up in the bottom of the screen). People accused the game dev of 'shoving politics into warhammer' with the move because many people were under the impression that all space marines were, normally, white outside of chapters like Scars and Salamanders.

When the imperial knights codex came out initially, a similar thing happened, where there was a large argument about whether women were allowed to be imperial knight pilots. Of course not, their society is based on the archaic and backwards medieval feudalist society, obviously GW depicted all the pilots to be male because that society would be sexist as all hell, claimed the same folks. So in the next IK codex, there were fluff stories and references to knight pilots with honorifics like "Queen" and "Baroness" etc and a female knight pilot voice actor was in a video game.

Ditto with non-white sisters of battle. Every sister of battle in the early art is shown as...effectively like, clones. They all have the same haircut, face, etc, sometimes one is older or has a scar but theyre all basically just the same white lady. Why wouldn't they be explicitly all white women, the same crowd claimed, theyre inspired by joan of arc and catholic imagery of course the imperium is picking their purest most beautiful women to be their holy women soldiers! Nope...again....as always, just didn't think about it, and GW includes nonwhite sisters all over the new codex to make it explicitly clear that modern racial bias as we understand it does not exist in the imperium because they DO NOT WANT to use 40k to have modern political discussions.

People believe that GW painting models with dark skin, including heads that look like non-white ethnicities, including women in various roles and factions is GW 'getting woke' because they need to sustain a sense of persecution and paranoia, when in reality these things are just done because gw wants to avoid political discussions and historically the majority of those political discussions haven't come from triggered woke lefties, theyve come from channels like Arch with orders of magnitude more following and reach than any microscopic "feminists for 40k" facebook group or whatever with 300 people following it.


"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut






Seems the word "Nazi" has got peoples backs up. I just want to note than a comparison is not saying that the things are each other. "Having two apples and eating one is like having two oranges and eating one", doesn't mean "Apples are Oranges".

I was using Nazis as a "world renowned bad guys" analogy, not as "the political party". The way I was using it wasn't political, it was merely factual. They were bad guys who thought their actions were improving the gene pool of man. Now we see space marines, killing heretics and mutants. See how that compares? but anyway, let's drop that now.

@ Sgt_Smudge:
Spoiler:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

The issue is that:
1. Why doesn't it make sense for women to be Space Marines? The reasons given are that "it's explained by the lore", and that "they're representative of monastic orders and warrior fraternities".
Firstly, the lore is made up, and is a completely arbitrary reason in itself - it's not a justification alone. Why is the lore the way that it is?
Secondly, Space Marines being "representative of brotherhood and warrior fraternities" doesn't work with the vast range of Space Marine Chapters out there. The Space Wolves aren't a monastic order. The Raven Guard aren't a monastic order. The Carcharadons aren't a monastic order. The faction that actually *does* embody those traits of being a fraternal warrior culture and monastic/ascetic lifestyle are the Custodes, which I've explicitly said I don't mind being all-male, because it actually fits their design philosophy.
Space Marines are now more defined by their customisation and Chapter culture which the hobbyist can play around with - and deliberately saying "you can't do that" flies in the face of that philosphy.

2. Because they're the flagship, yes. Either Space Marines shouldn't be the flagship (which is simply unrealistic, from an economic point of view), or we need to evaluate what message an all-boys flagship is sending. And again, you say "into something else" - remember, Space Marines used to have women, and it was an entirely arbitrary reason that they now don't.

But that is the lore. The game is nothing but the models and the stories behind them. The models represent the lore, and the lore defines the factions. Changing a grimdark lore to make genetically engineered super soldiers inclusive just to tick a box that it has equal representation between men and women is frankly absurd. Yes, it's only fiction, but there has to be some integrity in it. If every sharp edge is smoothed over in the name of avoiding offending people, then you're left with a shapeless blob with nothing to define it. This is along the same lines as saying "the >holy book< needs more females in it, they are all men! this is driving women away from >religion<!". When you change the story behind something, it changes the something. I'm all for adding a reason why female marines can happen in the future of the lore, but not in changing the past of it to make it seem like it has never not been a thing.

So outright, there was a mistake made by writing "meat" instead of "special". Not off to a great start.

No, Fred decided to make meat oriented meals for the special menu. The decision was arbitrary, but not a mistake.

Secondly, why can't Big Fred's Meat Feasts have dishes that include both meat and veg? No onion rings, no chips, no potato, no salad to go along with the meat? Why can't I ask the chef to plate my greens on the same dish as my Meat Feasts, and why will they refuse? Because of an arbitrary mistake, and holding fast to that mistake even when the original owner has since left?

You're taking it slightly too literally, and picking up on the finer details. This is like me saying "but what if the marines identify as women?". It adds nothing to the discussion.

This implies that Space Marines are only popular because they're all men though.
Do you believe this to be the case?

No, it's implying that the space marines are popular because they are popular. The meat feasts are popular because people like them, whether that's because they're lal meat is their opinion to keep to themselves. The fact is merely that they are popular.


But we're not trying to change them to be vegetarian. We're trying to change it so that I can have some mashed potato along with my steak, because that sounds like a pretty good thing to have with steak.

Again, you're going too literal. The marines faction is the menu, not the dish. "Vegetarian" is females, "Meat" is males. You can reverse this if you prefer, and have "Big Fred's Veg Dishes", and someone asking to add meat. So every dish (model) in the menu (faction) is meat (male). Apologies if that wasn't clear!


However, when all the voucher deals are only applicable to "Big Fred's Meat Feasts", and all the other food options are either expensive, hidden in a scrappy side-menu, or just served out of a rusty bucket, can you see why either Big Fred's Meat Feasts needs to change, either to bring everything else up to parity (extremely expensive in this scenario), or Big Fred can learn to put a little bit of potato on their Meaty Feasts.

I'd like to mention again that Big Fred's Meat Feasts was an entirely arbitrary exclusion of non-meat products, and that, at this current point in time, they don't make a big deal of how they're deliberately only meat. Just so we're being honest with this analogy.

I also emphasis as well that every other patron of Big Fred's can still order the same thing they've always had. Adding veg options wouldn't change a damn thing for them.

Okay, so suddenly the issue is that space marines are in all the deals and not that they are all male? Remove them from the deals and the problem goes away? Then it wasn't a real problem.

You've also added random extras to make the other meals (which I described as diverse, nice and flavorful, so don't ever go into the food critique business) unappetizing. I'm sure if marines came in a box filled with scorpions it would reduce their popularity. Notice how that is both irrelevant and not something that happens.

The arbitrary decision was made, and Meat Feasts was born. Changing that decision changes the menu, and changes it from "Meat Feasts". It's highlighting how the change to one small decision can impact what the thing actually is.

You are correct, as they could still only order meat dishes. But the issue is that they are no longer "Meat Feasts", as the cannot be "Meat Feasts" with vegetarian options in there. Adding "Veg Feasts" is not a solution, apparently, as he would have to make another poster to advertise them. What made them what they are is removed by changing things.


And maybe that would have flown decades ago, but the market has changed. There's more vegetarian diners now, and they're not happy with the meagre veg options that Big Fred's offers, because they don't apply for any meal deals, and Big Fred's marketing has been akin to putting up a big flashing sign saying "VEGETARIANS AREN'T WELCOME".

I said Fred's had an extensive veggie menu. Basically everything has veggie options - except "Meat Feasts". They are unique in being the menu without veggie options. Now vegetarians want them to be veggie too. Something will be lost in appeasing them.


Vegetarians *could* have the other dishes, but the other dishes are perhaps cooked in a sauce they don't want, or are served in a rusty bucket, or are prohibitively expensive, or don't qualify for meal deals, or any other reason.

At which point the vegetarians should probably either accept that only eating vegetarian dishes is a choice not a requirement, and either accept that their choice limits them or just eat some meat. You've also added unappealing aspects to the veggie dishes. What you're describing is in fact the Bacon Phenomenon - no matter how devout, a vegetarian will always like the smell of bacon and want to eat it. Ever eaten veggie bacon? You'll see how changing something can lose the key aspects of what makes it.

Same deal with marines. All the other armies are either alien or include females. If you impose a restriction on yourself to only buy armies with female representation, don't pick marines. Just like if someone imposed a limitation on themselves to only use armies with male representation should avoid sisters of battle, or tyranids. If you want marines but want female models, either kitbash or compromise. We don't make CC tau for people who want to have samurai. Though it would be cool.

The thing you're getting stuck on too is that it's not just "meat versus veg" - it's people wanting meat *and* veg. Big Fred's Meat Feasts are only made up of meat, with no non-meat products. Why? What's so harmful about slapping a potato on there? If you don't want a potato, just don't have one.

Again, that's the wrong thought. The dishes have meat and veg. The menu is the faction. the menu has no pure-veg units.

And I think it still misses the fundamental issue that the decision to not include women was entirely arbitrary, and serves no creative purpose going forward.
Why shouldn't women be allowed?

because warhammer 40k doesn't want to become homogenous. Yes, different armies are different from each other. That's just how it is.


Cool. So we make them all women then? Or we eradicate gender from them entirely? So why do they look like men, and use male pronouns if they're only meant to be superhuman fighting machines?
What part about being "superhuman fighting machines" mean they need to be all male?

No to all women because they're established as men. you'd be rewriting the whole book. Eh to eradicating gender, doesn't make much odds as they aren't sexualised anyway. Why do they look like men and act like men? because they're unfeeling violence machines. Very stereotypical male behaviour. sexual dimorphism in humans makes males larger and stronger, and woman more empathetic. Which of those features do you exaggerate to make a super-soldier? That's why they appear masculine - not because they are aiming for masculinity, but because masculinity lines up with what they were aiming for. You have cause & effect backwards there. As for the pronouns, it lines up with them appearing male.

So why do they use masculine pronouns and are male coded if we're trying to dehumanise them?
So why are they male-coded, and clearly not artificial?
If you don't want them to feel human, that's okay. In which case, why are you okay with them using masculine pronouns and having a male-coded appearance?

Again, because they look male. note that looking male is a side effect and not a goal. You have to call them something.


Nevertheless, the problem with the whole "BUT THE SPACE MARINES ARE NAZIS WHY WOULD YOU WANT TO BE REPRESENTED BY NAZIS" idea is that GW don't portray them like that.

No-one said they were Nazis. Reread what I said, and what Grimskul added to correct someone else.
>

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I am Thoruk, the Barbarian, Slayer of Ducks, and This is my blog!

I'm Selling Infinity, 40k, dystopian wars, UK based!

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Made in gb
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar





 some bloke wrote:
Seems the word "Nazi" has got peoples backs up. I just want to note than a comparison is not saying that the things are each other. "Having two apples and eating one is like having two oranges and eating one", doesn't mean "Apples are Oranges".

I was using Nazis as a "world renowned bad guys" analogy, not as "the political party". The way I was using it wasn't political, it was merely factual. They were bad guys who thought their actions were improving the gene pool of man. Now we see space marines, killing heretics and mutants. See how that compares?
The issue is that GW doesn't portray them as "the bad guys". They're portrayed, well, as whatever GW want to portray them as. In some content, they're emotionless killing machines, detached from humanity and ruthless examples of the Imperium's warmongering state.
In other content, they're the noble and heroic saviours of humanity, the last line against unspeakable horrors and threats.
In other content, they're friendly cartoon siblings and mascots, easily marketable and iconic to the brand.
 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

The issue is that:
1. Why doesn't it make sense for women to be Space Marines? The reasons given are that "it's explained by the lore", and that "they're representative of monastic orders and warrior fraternities".
Firstly, the lore is made up, and is a completely arbitrary reason in itself - it's not a justification alone. Why is the lore the way that it is?
Secondly, Space Marines being "representative of brotherhood and warrior fraternities" doesn't work with the vast range of Space Marine Chapters out there. The Space Wolves aren't a monastic order. The Raven Guard aren't a monastic order. The Carcharadons aren't a monastic order. The faction that actually *does* embody those traits of being a fraternal warrior culture and monastic/ascetic lifestyle are the Custodes, which I've explicitly said I don't mind being all-male, because it actually fits their design philosophy.
Space Marines are now more defined by their customisation and Chapter culture which the hobbyist can play around with - and deliberately saying "you can't do that" flies in the face of that philosphy.

2. Because they're the flagship, yes. Either Space Marines shouldn't be the flagship (which is simply unrealistic, from an economic point of view), or we need to evaluate what message an all-boys flagship is sending. And again, you say "into something else" - remember, Space Marines used to have women, and it was an entirely arbitrary reason that they now don't.

But that is the lore.
And the lore changes.
The game is nothing but the models and the stories behind them.
So why is it still around after decades of lore changes and tweaks? Is Space Marines being male so essential to the models and stories that including women would ruin them?
The models represent the lore, and the lore defines the factions. Changing a grimdark lore to make genetically engineered super soldiers inclusive just to tick a box that it has equal representation between men and women is frankly absurd.
The fact you see adding women as "ticking a box" is the problem here.

There was no reason not to have women in the first place. The lore was arbitrary, the business decision guided by logic that was barely fit for it's time, and the lore isn't more important than genuine real people!
Yes, it's only fiction, but there has to be some integrity in it.
Oh? Like Necrons? Like Primaris? Like Guilliman getting up for a little walk?

The lore has no integrity, and women Space Marines isn't the cornerstone on which it is built.
If every sharp edge is smoothed over in the name of avoiding offending people, then you're left with a shapeless blob with nothing to define it.
Is AoS a shapeless blob because they have women Stormcast?
This is along the same lines as saying "the >holy book< needs more females in it, they are all men! this is driving women away from >religion<!".
Are you really suggesting that a fictional toy soldier game is even close to a religious text with thousands of years of history?

And, for what it's worth, I can only speak of the Bible, but (at the risk of going off topic) it literally was edited to exclude women as well! The church have translated and requoted and rewritten their texts so many times, and quite often ended up removing references to stuff that the power bodies at the time did not approve of - women's agency being one of many.

So, actually, you might be totally onto something there - a text modified to exclude women, and treated as gospel. Hm.
When you change the story behind something, it changes the something.
The "something" has already been changed.
I'm all for adding a reason why female marines can happen in the future of the lore, but not in changing the past of it to make it seem like it has never not been a thing.
Fine. Just get women Space Marines in there, and I'm good.
So outright, there was a mistake made by writing "meat" instead of "special". Not off to a great start.

No, Fred decided to make meat oriented meals for the special menu. The decision was arbitrary, but not a mistake.
No, you very much phrased it as a mistake, something not done deliberately.

And again - while that may have been acceptable at the time, changing market values might disagree with it's relevance.
Secondly, why can't Big Fred's Meat Feasts have dishes that include both meat and veg? No onion rings, no chips, no potato, no salad to go along with the meat? Why can't I ask the chef to plate my greens on the same dish as my Meat Feasts, and why will they refuse? Because of an arbitrary mistake, and holding fast to that mistake even when the original owner has since left?

You're taking it slightly too literally, and picking up on the finer details. This is like me saying "but what if the marines identify as women?". It adds nothing to the discussion.
No, you're realising that your analogy doesn't work, because it doesn't accommodate for the finer details of the real life situation.

What if the Space Marines identify as women? Then that's great! But as I've said, representation means nothing without visibility. I made a previous comment that I was entirely on board with female recruits taking on masculine pronouns and identities (and vice versa) as part of their specific Chapter's culture. In this situation, you could have some Astartes with female-coded faces who still use masculine pronouns, and that would be cool!

But the important element is the visible representation and the options to do so.
This implies that Space Marines are only popular because they're all men though.
Do you believe this to be the case?
No, it's implying that the space marines are popular because they are popular. The meat feasts are popular because people like them, whether that's because they're lal meat is their opinion to keep to themselves. The fact is merely that they are popular.
But why does them being all meat/all male have anything to do with their popularity?

The fact is that they're popular, and because of their popularity, they are disproportionately better quality than the other food options available. Something has to change, because the other options are not enough.

And, in the sake of the *real world* situation, changing the flagship dish to include *options* is cheaper.
But we're not trying to change them to be vegetarian. We're trying to change it so that I can have some mashed potato along with my steak, because that sounds like a pretty good thing to have with steak.
Again, you're going too literal.
No, your analogy doesn't account for the actual situation.
The marines faction is the menu, not the dish. "Vegetarian" is females, "Meat" is males. You can reverse this if you prefer, and have "Big Fred's Veg Dishes", and someone asking to add meat. So every dish (model) in the menu (faction) is meat (male). Apologies if that wasn't clear!

But that still doesn't accommodate that the problem is that you can't mix veg and meat together, despite there being no reason not to. Why can't the dishes with meat on them also have veg accoutrements? And similarly, why can't the veg dishes have some meat on them? If someone doesn't want that, then they can ask the chef not to include it on their specific meal, or just not eat it themselves.

However, when all the voucher deals are only applicable to "Big Fred's Meat Feasts", and all the other food options are either expensive, hidden in a scrappy side-menu, or just served out of a rusty bucket, can you see why either Big Fred's Meat Feasts needs to change, either to bring everything else up to parity (extremely expensive in this scenario), or Big Fred can learn to put a little bit of potato on their Meaty Feasts.

I'd like to mention again that Big Fred's Meat Feasts was an entirely arbitrary exclusion of non-meat products, and that, at this current point in time, they don't make a big deal of how they're deliberately only meat. Just so we're being honest with this analogy.

I also emphasis as well that every other patron of Big Fred's can still order the same thing they've always had. Adding veg options wouldn't change a damn thing for them.

Okay, so suddenly the issue is that space marines are in all the deals and not that they are all male? Remove them from the deals and the problem goes away? Then it wasn't a real problem.
The deals is representative of the additional attention, ease of access, and marketing focus that Space Marines get. They are afforded ease of access, visibility, and promotional materials out of the wazoo.

As I said - make Space Marines not the flagship, and you're going a distance in fixing the problem, but it still doesn't even begin to address why the meat dishes cannot, on pain of death, have a single carrot on them.

You've also added random extras to make the other meals (which I described as diverse, nice and flavorful, so don't ever go into the food critique business) unappetizing. I'm sure if marines came in a box filled with scorpions it would reduce their popularity. Notice how that is both irrelevant and not something that happens.
Because those things might be unappetising. Perhaps women don't want their flavour of power armour to be "nuns with guns". Perhaps they don't want to be locked into "nuns with guns" if they want a badass elite faction of women. Perhaps they don't want to settle for the factions which are so clearly inferior to the Mighty Space Marines.

The other meals are not good enough compared to the Meat Feasts, because the Meat Feasts are so head and shoulders above everything else, and you're a fool if you don't see the same with Space Marines.

The arbitrary decision was made, and Meat Feasts was born. Changing that decision changes the menu, and changes it from "Meat Feasts". It's highlighting how the change to one small decision can impact what the thing actually is.
And why is it so important that the Meat Feasts contain absolutely no trace of veg in them?

You are correct, as they could still only order meat dishes. But the issue is that they are no longer "Meat Feasts", as the cannot be "Meat Feasts" with vegetarian options in there.
I'm not talking "vegetarian options" - vegetarian options would imply all-female. I'm talking about having both meat and veg on the same dish.

And I say again, why is the meal being "only meat" such an integral part of their design, because, breaking from the analogy, GW don't treat Space Marines' all-male-ness as that important.
Adding "Veg Feasts" is not a solution, apparently, as he would have to make another poster to advertise them. What made them what they are is removed by changing things.
But the analogy fails here, because Space Marines are not "Space Marines" because they're all male. They're Space Marines because of all the other things GW choose to highlight about them instead - not because that they're men.
You can argue with that, but GW themselves are moving further and further from it.

And maybe that would have flown decades ago, but the market has changed. There's more vegetarian diners now, and they're not happy with the meagre veg options that Big Fred's offers, because they don't apply for any meal deals, and Big Fred's marketing has been akin to putting up a big flashing sign saying "VEGETARIANS AREN'T WELCOME".

I said Fred's had an extensive veggie menu. Basically everything has veggie options - except "Meat Feasts". They are unique in being the menu without veggie options. Now vegetarians want them to be veggie too. Something will be lost in appeasing them.
Except he veggie options aren't good enough, and you're asking people to settle with stuff they don't want, and have no choice to change beyond going elsewhere.

And again, no-one's asking the Meat Feasts to be veggie. They're asking them to include some vegetables AS WELL AS the meat.

Vegetarians *could* have the other dishes, but the other dishes are perhaps cooked in a sauce they don't want, or are served in a rusty bucket, or are prohibitively expensive, or don't qualify for meal deals, or any other reason.

At which point the vegetarians should probably either accept that only eating vegetarian dishes is a choice not a requirement
So, get out of the hobby if you won't settle for what scraps we offer you?

How... welcoming.
You've also added unappealing aspects to the veggie dishes.
No, you forgot to mention in your analogy that the reason people want to add some vegetables to the meat dishes is because the meat dishes are so much better compared to the veg only ones.

Again - your analogy needs work.
All the other armies are either alien or include females. If you impose a restriction on yourself to only buy armies with female representation, don't pick marines.
But that doesn't address that there's no reason for Marines to be all male anyway. You're making an arbitrary restriction, and when people wonder why it's there, you tell them to get over it.

I remind you - it's an arbitrary restriction.
Just like if someone imposed a limitation on themselves to only use armies with male representation should avoid sisters of battle, or tyranids. If you want marines but want female models, either kitbash or compromise.
That's a lame excuse. I want to know why an arbitrary decision to exclude women from a representative position is so important - because GW haven't been laying into why Space Marines being men is so important. As I referenced earlier - a Space Wolf *in setting* didn't even know why.
We don't make CC tau for people who want to have samurai. Though it would be cool.
Except there *are* options - fusion blades for Farsight Tau, Farsight himself, Aun'Shi, and no matter what model, it can still *enter melee combat*. The options exist.

There are no options for women Space Marines, full stop. And when Space Marines are a faction now best known for their customisation and player freedom, a lack of options flies in the face of their design philosophy.

The thing you're getting stuck on too is that it's not just "meat versus veg" - it's people wanting meat *and* veg. Big Fred's Meat Feasts are only made up of meat, with no non-meat products. Why? What's so harmful about slapping a potato on there? If you don't want a potato, just don't have one.

Again, that's the wrong thought. The dishes have meat and veg. The menu is the faction. the menu has no pure-veg units.
But no-one's asking for pure veg units. They're asking for veg as part of the meat dishes, because there's no reason for the meat dishes to only include meat alone, or even that those who are after only meat can't ask for their veg to be taken off, and deal with it like the grown ups they're meant to be.
And I think it still misses the fundamental issue that the decision to not include women was entirely arbitrary, and serves no creative purpose going forward.
Why shouldn't women be allowed?

because warhammer 40k doesn't want to become homogenous. Yes, different armies are different from each other. That's just how it is.
Adding women to Space Marines would make 40k homogenous? Is "we have no women!!" a role that needs filling? Why is that an important role?

And, even if that ridiculous idea that "we've just GOT to have a faction of only men!!" was true, Custodes exist to fill the "only men" role.

Why Space Marines?

Cool. So we make them all women then? Or we eradicate gender from them entirely? So why do they look like men, and use male pronouns if they're only meant to be superhuman fighting machines?
What part about being "superhuman fighting machines" mean they need to be all male?
No to all women because they're established as men.
But you just said you wanted them to be superhuman fighting machines, because that's what they were established as. What part of being a superhuman fighting machine means they need to be men?
you'd be rewriting the whole book.
Yeah, you would be rewriting the whole book if you wanted to reaffirm that they're "only superhuman fighting machines and nothing else".

But that's what you said they were - unless maybe you're wrong, and they're not just inhuman machines, but *do* have human aspects. In which case, why can't those human aspects include women?
Eh to eradicating gender, doesn't make much odds as they aren't sexualised anyway.
Including women wouldn't sexualise them either. But the point stands that they're male coded. If they were inhuman fighting machines like you said, they shouldn't even be male-coded.
Why do they look like men and act like men? because they're unfeeling violence machines.
I don't follow. Why are onlt men capable of being violent killing machines. When I think of a machine, I don't think of a gender. I think of a genderless... well, machine. Sounds like your example isn't really holding up.
Very stereotypical male behaviour.
But they're not humans, like you said - they're machines, apparently. Why would human behaviour matter to a machine?
sexual dimorphism in humans makes males larger and stronger, and woman more empathetic.
Actually, humans have exceptionally LOW sexual dimorphism, which I've referenced earlier in this thread.

So, let's pop that bubble right now.
Which of those features do you exaggerate to make a super-soldier? That's why they appear masculine - not because they are aiming for masculinity, but because masculinity lines up with what they were aiming for. You have cause & effect backwards there. As for the pronouns, it lines up with them appearing male.
It's a made-up super serum - cause and effect are kinda irrelevant here, because there is no scientific basis for how it works.

There is literally no reason that the Magic Super Soldier Space Serum Juice would have any effect other than what the author says it does. And if that's the case...
Why does it have the completely arbitrary limitation on women?

So why do they use masculine pronouns and are male coded if we're trying to dehumanise them?
So why are they male-coded, and clearly not artificial?
If you don't want them to feel human, that's okay. In which case, why are you okay with them using masculine pronouns and having a male-coded appearance?

Again, because they look male.
But why? They're fictional. They could look like anything. If they're meant to be inhuman, why do they look human?
note that looking male is a side effect and not a goal.
No, looking male is because the sculptors made them look male.
You have to call them something.
I know what you could call them: "Astartes".


Nevertheless, the problem with the whole "BUT THE SPACE MARINES ARE NAZIS WHY WOULD YOU WANT TO BE REPRESENTED BY NAZIS" idea is that GW don't portray them like that.

No-one said they were Nazis.
I know you didn't call them Nazis specifically. You simply implied they were the bad guys. I used Nazi in the same context you did - in the way that GW don't treat them as bad guys.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/06/11 14:30:20



They/them

 
   
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"here's this faction that we've turned into a gigantic uber-customizable metagolem of infinite customizability, you can have them in a car on the ground in a plane, in every conceivable playstyle that exists in the game, every single represented aesthetic, ninety-trillion different armor marks and styles, historical inspirations, every color in the rainbow, every race and culture of humanity...

...but you CANT make them ladies. that is the sacred line across which we must throw our bodies and souls! Space Marines can be every conceivable configuration of 'your dudes' imaginable, SO LONG AS YOU DO NOT IMAGINE THEM AS YOUR DUDETTES!

"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in gb
Incorporating Wet-Blending




U.k

 the_scotsman wrote:
"here's this faction that we've turned into a gigantic uber-customizable metagolem of infinite customizability, you can have them in a car on the ground in a plane, in every conceivable playstyle that exists in the game, every single represented aesthetic, ninety-trillion different armor marks and styles, historical inspirations, every color in the rainbow, every race and culture of humanity...

...but you CANT make them ladies. that is the sacred line across which we must throw our bodies and souls! Space Marines can be every conceivable configuration of 'your dudes' imaginable, SO LONG AS YOU DO NOT IMAGINE THEM AS YOUR DUDETTES!


Love this. Exalted. This to me sums up 34 pages of banging our heads against an unreasonable brick wall.

And credit to Sgt smudge for his apparent endless patients trying to explain to people that women marines is not that big a deal game wise.

And to those saying it doesn’t matter because it is only toy soldiers, tell that to the ones who are sending the death threats and hate to people who only want the core faction of their favourite game not to exclude women.
   
Made in us
Morally-Flexible Malleus Hearing Whispers




 the_scotsman wrote:
"here's this faction that we've turned into a gigantic uber-customizable metagolem of infinite customizability, you can have them in a car on the ground in a plane, in every conceivable playstyle that exists in the game, every single represented aesthetic, ninety-trillion different armor marks and styles, historical inspirations, every color in the rainbow, every race and culture of humanity...

...but you CANT make them ladies. that is the sacred line across which we must throw our bodies and souls! Space Marines can be every conceivable configuration of 'your dudes' imaginable, SO LONG AS YOU DO NOT IMAGINE THEM AS YOUR DUDETTES!



Give this man a Kupi doll!
   
Made in de
Fresh-Faced New User




 Grimskul wrote:


As I said before, while there are outliers to females being able to compete almost on par with men, you then also have to factor the extreme outliers to men themselves that they are also competing against. This is why most sports (well until recently with the stuff I won't go into since that moves towards the realm of politics) are delineated between men and women because you're already dealing with the cream of the crop for men in terms of genetics/biology, so even if you have the top performing women, they're still going to be far below the higher ceiling for men.


While i generally kinda agree with that part, the female outliers don't just almost compete with men, they absolutely smoke the majority of men in what they do, this freaking 119 lb woman here for example can lift more than the absolute majority of men on the planet(average men are significantly bigger, but well below that lifting weight):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yH_sU8xOWLU

And yes of course go male outliers even significantly higher than their female counterparts, but(and i'm not even the biggest fan of the female Space Marines idea, they should indeed just portray the SoB/SoS and especially characters like Celestine better) in a fictional over the top Verse(quite literally run by the Rule of Cool) 10000s of years in the future where even unaugmented female characters regularily perform blatantly superhuman feats is real world biology(especially for genetically engineered super soldiers) probably not the strongest argument.


This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2021/06/12 00:18:11


 
   
Made in us
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Yeah... I exalted that as well. Scotsman wins the thread. I love his methodical, practical, and logical approach to the issue discussed in this thread. Sgt. Smudge in my opinion strayed a bit at a few points but I admire where smudges heart is. Argive has provided a vital role of the opposition and the material which kept this thread going this long and this peacefully; some of the other opposition have as well. I’ve learned a lot about why I hardly see women playing 40K; I started this thread because I just thought that it was weird that we got primaris before or sans female space marines, and I thought it would be interesting to explore the concept of the emperor being a misogynist, or at least biased in some way against women. I definitely had sigmarines in my mind when I pondered this. That explanation would have given real character to space marines being exclusively male in my opinion. I honestly didn’t have much of an opinion on the matter.

When I asked my wife if she would have played WOW as compulsively as she does if there weren’t female characters, she said she definitely wouldn’t have picked it up. She even typically prefers playing as a pandaran as she finds more representation with their body type; curvy/plump. This representation applies to the clothing she chooses to buy as well; she loves finding her body type represented in the ads and recently has taken to Admiring certain clothing lines for having a very realistic projection of their product on a realistic sample of people, like those with c section scarring prominently displayed or cellulite and what not. In marketing visible representation is VERY important and I’ve observed this effect with the successes of this company and similar reviews and praises.

I’ve learned that exclusively male marines without an explanation like “the emperor believed women to be inferior/prefers the company of men” adds nothing to the background and game, and maintains the status quo of this game and setting as a man cave and boys only club. I also find sociology a fascinating subject and have read quite a bit of literature that supports the talking points of Sgt Smudge, CEO Kasen, Insaniak, and others, whilst finding little research in any respectable academic database that supports the opposing view, meaning that the opposition in my eyes took a scientific debate and made it political. My research admittedly was more on race than gender, but the same concepts of sociodynamic equilibrium apply across different systems of people defined by whatever barriers we choose to apply to define the people observed. (no idea what the actual sociological term for it is, I kind of used my understanding of chemistry to develop that. Peer reviewed research seldom deigns to define basic theory and terminology XD). I thank all participants for what they have contributed to my growth and development in this subject matter.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/06/11 21:10:47


Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. -Kurt Vonnegut 
   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle






I just noticed this thread and jumped in to the most enlightened single page of discussion I've ever witnessed on Dakka.

Road to Renown! It's like classic Path to Glory, but repaired, remastered, expanded! https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/778170.page

I chose an avatar I feel best represents the quality of my post history.

I try to view Warhammer as more of a toolbox with examples than fully complete games. 
   
Made in gb
Incorporating Wet-Blending




U.k

macluvin wrote:
Yeah... I exalted that as well. Scotsman wins the thread. I love his methodical, practical, and logical approach to the issue discussed in this thread. Sgt. Smudge in my opinion strayed a bit at a few points but I admire where smudges heart is. Argive has provided a vital role of the opposition and the material which kept this thread going this long and this peacefully; some of the other opposition have as well. I’ve learned a lot about why I hardly see women playing 40K; I started this thread because I just thought that it was weird that we got primaris before or sans female space marines, and I thought it would be interesting to explore the concept of the emperor being a misogynist, or at least biased in some way against women. I definitely had sigmarines in my mind when I pondered this. That explanation would have given real character to space marines being exclusively male in my opinion. I honestly didn’t have much of an opinion on the matter.

When I asked my wife if she would have played WOW as compulsively as she does if there weren’t female characters, she said she definitely wouldn’t have picked it up. She even typically prefers playing as a pandaran as she finds more representation with their body type; curvy/plump. This representation applies to the clothing she chooses to buy as well; she loves finding her body type represented in the ads and recently has taken to Admiring certain clothing lines for having a very realistic projection of their product on a realistic sample of people, like those with c section scarring prominently displayed or cellulite and what not. In marketing visible representation is VERY important and I’ve observed this effect with the successes of this company and similar reviews and praises.

I’ve learned that exclusively male marines without an explanation like “the emperor believed women to be inferior/prefers the company of men” adds nothing to the background and game, and maintains the status quo of this game and setting as a man cave and boys only club. I also find sociology a fascinating subject and have read quite a bit of literature that supports the talking points of Sgt Smudge, CEO Kasen, Insaniak, and others, whilst finding little research in any respectable academic database that supports the opposing view, meaning that the opposition in my eyes took a scientific debate and made it political. My research admittedly was more on race than gender, but the same concepts of sociodynamic equilibrium apply across different systems of people defined by whatever barriers we choose to apply to define the people observed. (no idea what the actual sociological term for it is, I kind of used my understanding of chemistry to develop that. Peer reviewed research seldom deigns to define basic theory and terminology XD). I thank all participants for what they have contributed to my growth and development in this subject matter.


Thanks for starting the thread. I consider the greatest move forward is that this thread has survived and lasted as long it has. This is a real shift in tone and support since I last tried a couple of years ago when it flamed out and got closed in hours. I asked the mods then to allow a frank thread where the debate could happen but it was too volatile a subject then and I respected their decision to not allow it. Too much hate and anger. It’s really nice to see the subject gain traction and support. Those against it have the same excuses/reasons but there are less of them and the most vitriolic of them seem to have moved on or lost their confidence to shout out. So I’m seeing this whole thing as a step in the right direction. Fingers crossed GW take the next step and do it. Then we can all see the game and world will survive and thrive.
   
Made in gb
Walking Dead Wraithlord






When I look at a model/faction/unit Im like:

- Ohh these guys are all about honour, loyalty, blah blah blah I wana get behind this.

- these guys are blood thirsty berserkers whose leader will likely chop you up if you standing next to him (praise be to kharne)

- These guys are demons who are all about excess etc etc.

- This is.. some sort of bioform that -" ohh my god my face is melted off!!!"

Id think when enetering 40k you pick the thing that speaks to you and I suppose represents what you like about the setting actors.

If the chief thing you care about the setting's faction is what dangles between the models legs, i think this is a problem unique to you and nobody should entertain changes based on this because the game/setting has nothing to do with genitelia...

If you have a problem with one particular group of toy soldiers all sporting penises at birth I think thats a 'you' problem ultimately...

Promoting an idea that there is something inherently wrong with people owning penises grouping together with other people who own penises is a bit strange...

In closing.
Mad mad world..


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Andykp wrote:
 the_scotsman wrote:
"here's this faction that we've turned into a gigantic uber-customizable metagolem of infinite customizability, you can have them in a car on the ground in a plane, in every conceivable playstyle that exists in the game, every single represented aesthetic, ninety-trillion different armor marks and styles, historical inspirations, every color in the rainbow, every race and culture of humanity...

...but you CANT make them ladies. that is the sacred line across which we must throw our bodies and souls! Space Marines can be every conceivable configuration of 'your dudes' imaginable, SO LONG AS YOU DO NOT IMAGINE THEM AS YOUR DUDETTES!


Love this. Exalted. This to me sums up 34 pages of banging our heads against an unreasonable brick wall.

And credit to Sgt smudge for his apparent endless patients trying to explain to people that women marines is not that big a deal game wise.

And to those saying it doesn’t matter because it is only toy soldiers, tell that to the ones who are sending the death threats and hate to people who only want the core faction of their favourite game not to exclude women.


The police surely sorted them out already.. Why would we need to tell them anything if they scum...?
But please show me where these people are I will educate them. They don't seem to be on here or my local club..

Nothing is stopping anyone from doing their models in any specific way.
GW wont come around your house and burn your collection.

But you also cannot expect everyone to like what you do or think its a good idea.
Like everything in life.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/06/14 04:10:18


https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/772746.page#10378083 - My progress/failblog painting blog thingy

Eldar- 4436 pts


AngryAngel80 wrote:
I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "


 Eonfuzz wrote:


I would much rather everyone have a half ass than no ass.


"A warrior does not seek fame and honour. They come to him as he humbly follows his path"  
   
Made in us
Warp-Screaming Noise Marine




 Argive wrote:
When I look at a model/faction/unit Im like:

- Ohh these guys are all about honour, loyalty, blah blah blah I wana get behind this.

- these guys are blood thirsty berserkers whose leader will likely chop you up if you standing next to him (praise be to kharne)

- These guys are demons who are all about excess etc etc.

- This is.. some sort of bioform that -" ohh my god my face is melted off!!!"

Id think when enetering 40k you pick the thing that speaks to you and I suppose represents what you like about the setting actors.

If the chief thing you care about the setting's faction is what dangles between the models legs, i think this is a problem unique to you and nobody should entertain changes based on this because the game/setting has nothing to do with genitelia...

If you have a problem with one particular group of toy soldiers all sporting penises at birth I think thats a 'you' problem ultimately...

Promoting an idea that there is something inherently wrong with people owning penises grouping together with other people who own penises is a bit strange...

In closing.
Mad mad world..


But looking at a hobby and wondering why a fantasy future arbitrarily excluded my sex/gender from well over half the known/explored universe (lore, books, models, etc) is a bit of a turn off. Representation is a sociology concept; think chemical equilibrium but applied to people. It won’t apply to everyone but it is a stressor that moves the dynamic equilibrium state of the culture and player base.



The police surely sorted them out already.. Why would we need to tell them anything if they scum...?
But please show me where these people are I will educate them. They don't seem to be on here or my local club..


Well you’ll have to actually start talking to and listening to women to find them. Generally speaking men aren’t typically the focus point of misogyny, or sexual discrimination in a sausage fest like the 40K fan base. It’s sort of the same reason why a white person may be unaware of cross burnings in front lawns; they typically are not the subject of them.


Nothing is stopping anyone from doing their models in any specific way.
GW wont come around your house and burn your collection.

But you also cannot expect everyone to like what you do or think its a good idea.
Like everything in life.


Nothing is stopping that except the legions of passive aggressive comments like”space marines can’t be female” to death threats that still persist online and other misogynist harassment’s.

It’s fine if folk don’t like it, you are right that you cannot expect everyone to like what you do or think it’s a good idea. I think you should be able to at least expect not to receive sexist harassment and death threats and passive aggressive comments about how it’s not fitting to the lore though. I do all kinds of stuff I mention online, some of it honestly deserving of harassment, and I have yet to be harassed. This isn’t normal and I loathe to think what sort of messed up fantasy world you live in if you think it is.

Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. -Kurt Vonnegut 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut






Eh, I'm swayed. I was kind of clinging to the idea that the lore is an important thing, and I forgot just how much they had rewritten it already. I guess I was a grumpy old man shouting for the kids to get off his lawn, forgetting that the council had converted it to a playground over the last few years.

Why not just rewrite it so women are included? I already agreed it would be an awesome result.

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I am Thoruk, the Barbarian, Slayer of Ducks, and This is my blog!

I'm Selling Infinity, 40k, dystopian wars, UK based!

I also make designs for t-shirts and mugs and such on Redbubble! 
   
Made in us
Morally-Flexible Malleus Hearing Whispers




I'm seriously worried Argive is a Poe, and this has all just been a troll feeding event.
   
Made in gb
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar





 Argive wrote:
When I look at a model/faction/unit Im like:

- Ohh these guys are all about honour, loyalty, blah blah blah I wana get behind this.

- these guys are blood thirsty berserkers whose leader will likely chop you up if you standing next to him (praise be to kharne)

- These guys are demons who are all about excess etc etc.

- This is.. some sort of bioform that -" ohh my god my face is melted off!!!"
In which case, congratulations on not seeing gender?
But gender representation is still very much a factor in 40k - after all, I'm sure you can tell which out of a Space Marine and Sister of Battle is supposed to be a woman.

Id think when enetering 40k you pick the thing that speaks to you and I suppose represents what you like about the setting actors.
And perhaps a lot of people pick something that might resemble something like them, because that speaks to them.

For example, someone might pick up Space Wolves because they have a strong connection to Norse heritage, or might pick up Guardsmen because they're a soldier themselves. For whatever reason, we *know* that there are women who feel alienated from Space Marines because they are a cool concept which is inexplicably all male for no good reason.

Why can't we fix that problem?

If the chief thing you care about the setting's faction is what dangles between the models legs,
There's nothing dangling between their legs. They're toy models. Hell, I don't even think there would be anything between a Space Marines' legs if they were left as is.

But you cannot deny that they are *representative* of gender, and when one group is represented more than another, I have to ask "why", and then secondly "why can't this be different".
i think this is a problem unique to you
Evidently not, considering how many people share it.

Perhaps, and here's a radical idea, it's actually quite a common issue?
and nobody should entertain changes based on this because the game/setting has nothing to do with genitelia...
You're right, the game has very little to do with genitalia. We're not talking about genitalia though. We're talking about gender presentation, and why, for a game that supposedly doesn't care about it, there's an awful lot of arbitrary rules on what genders can do what.

If you have a problem with one particular group of toy soldiers all sporting penises at birth I think thats a 'you' problem ultimately...
And likewise, if you have a problem with a group of toy soldiers being both male and female and everything in between (because there was no good reason they shouldn't anyway), is that not also a you problem?

Promoting an idea that there is something inherently wrong with people owning penises grouping together with other people who own penises is a bit strange...
No-one said that. But nice strawman.

In closing.
Mad mad world..
I know! It's absolutely mad that people would care so much about so vociferously stopping women Space Marines. After all, these are toy soldiers - who cares about their genitals?


The police surely sorted them out already..
Because I'm sure the police will take that seriously...

Oh, you're being serious?
But please show me where these people are I will educate them. They don't seem to be on here or my local club..
I mean, there literally *was* a user several pages back who advocated for making their hobby environment specifically toxic to keep women out. I don't remember you "educating" them.

And hey, it's not hard to find those examples. There were several examples of people being antagonistic to others just because they made women Space Marines in the external threads linked, and you'd find plenty on Twitter. So, if you wanna go "educate" them, please do!

Nothing is stopping anyone from doing their models in any specific way.
Except there very much is a backlash to women Space Marines. You can say all you like "no-one's stopping you", but constant negative comments and snide remarks definitely accumulate.
But you also cannot expect everyone to like what you do or think its a good idea.
Like everything in life.
But why should women Space Marines be a bad idea? And why such a commonly held one? It surpasses any kind of criticisms people have about bad paintjobs, or playing an unpopular Chapter, or even a different faction. Women Space Marines are exceptionally taboo. Why?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/14 12:52:45



They/them

 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut






Despite being in the "yes for changing the lore for women space marines" camp now, I think this:

But you cannot deny that they are *representative* of gender, and when one group is represented more than another, I have to ask "why", and then secondly "why can't this be different".


Needs the extra step of "does this need to be changed?"


I agree that we need equal representation. But there are times when things also need to be left alone, and your method of thinking doesn't seem to account for that.

12,300 points of Orks
9th W/D/L with Orks, 4/0/2
I am Thoruk, the Barbarian, Slayer of Ducks, and This is my blog!

I'm Selling Infinity, 40k, dystopian wars, UK based!

I also make designs for t-shirts and mugs and such on Redbubble! 
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






It seems like (from data we have from massive, millions-of-datapoints MMORPGs and the like) when people are presented with a wide array of factions and are asked to choose one, they often represent themselves within the game, particularly when the players are new.

I do not, and I think most people arguing here do not, think it is an inherently bad thing to have all-male factions present in the 40k setting. The fact that is has only ever been brought up as a slippery slope fallacy example that people will start demanding non-masculine orks should serve as evidence of that fact.

What I do think is that:

It is a non-ideal situation that if a person who is male, like myself, is starting 40k, the faction that looks like me but inserted into the setting and marketed in all the discounted starter materials is the one with by far the most customization when it comes to model appearance, aesthetic variation, cultural reference, and gameplay style but if a person who is female is starting 40k, their two choices for an army that has any significant number of models that looks like them are

1) evil sex demons
2) evil kinky leather elves
3) an all-female order of nuns

none of which come in discounted starter boxes, and all of which are among the more expensive armies in the game to collect, being relatively non-elite, and none of which have anywhere near the degree of customizability that space marines do.

If you look at Sisters in particular, they:

-must be based on catholic joan of arc imagery, if you are interested in any other cultural reference with your sisters you've basically got to get third party models
-cannot be evil (no "chaos sisters" like there are chaos space marines)
-cannot have psykers

Admittedly, now theyve got their wave two, you've got a good number of choices between other playstyles present in the game, about on par with any of the middle-size xenos factions. but theyre multiple degrees of magnitude less customizable and tailor-able than the gigantic blob that is the third of the armies in the game that make up 'space marines.'


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 some bloke wrote:
Despite being in the "yes for changing the lore for women space marines" camp now, I think this:

But you cannot deny that they are *representative* of gender, and when one group is represented more than another, I have to ask "why", and then secondly "why can't this be different".


Needs the extra step of "does this need to be changed?"


I agree that we need equal representation. But there are times when things also need to be left alone, and your method of thinking doesn't seem to account for that.


Custodes and orks are a pair of examples where I don't think things need to be changed. Because 'all male' is a perfectly fine defining trait for a faction, or unit, or whatever, to have narratively.

but to give another example, if we imagined a world where White Scars, Tallarn and Thousand Sons did not exist, and where you had represented in the setting references to the cultures of

-Romans (UM most strongly, among others)
-Vikings (SM)
-Russians (multiple guard regiments)
-Americans (Catachans)
-British (Cadians)

and no models painted in colors other than caucasian skin appeared in the various magazines and marketing materials, but space marines existed as they do now, I think it'd be a perfectly reasonable assertion to say "hey, its pretty clear people like making historical cultural references with their human 40k minis, maybe we should insert some other cultures into space marines and guard to do that, because it would expand the things people would be able to do with their collections."

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/06/14 15:36:47


"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in gb
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar





some bloke wrote:I agree that we need equal representation. But there are times when things also need to be left alone, and your method of thinking doesn't seem to account for that.
Some things to be left alone? Yeah, sure, I can get behind that, but those things need to be *important* to be left alone, the setting-defining and critical aspects that 40k simply would not be without, the stuff that affects the whole setting from the ground up.


And I don't think women Space Marines is one of those things, and not by a long shot.

the_scotsman wrote:Custodes and orks are a pair of examples where I don't think things need to be changed. Because 'all male' is a perfectly fine defining trait for a faction, or unit, or whatever, to have narratively.

but to give another example, if we imagined a world where White Scars, Tallarn and Thousand Sons did not exist, and where you had represented in the setting references to the cultures of

-Romans (UM most strongly, among others)
-Vikings (SM)
-Russians (multiple guard regiments)
-Americans (Catachans)
-British (Cadians)

and no models painted in colors other than caucasian skin appeared in the various magazines and marketing materials, but space marines existed as they do now, I think it'd be a perfectly reasonable assertion to say "hey, its pretty clear people like making historical cultural references with their human 40k minis, maybe we should insert some other cultures into space marines and guard to do that, because it would expand the things people would be able to do with their collections."
Very much agreed. Custodes make use of the "all male" trope much better than Space Marines do, if we really needed an "all male" faction to tick the boxes, so to speak.

And as well, the point on representation - it wasn't so long ago that people didn't think that Ultramarines could be anything other than caucasian, I'm glad to see more people, GW included, to be breaking from the "white male default" that was so prevalent.

Space Marines are a faction defined by their player customisation and freedom. They get tons of units, with tons of options, with more canon colour schemes and subfactions than other factions get units, with a model range that lends perfectly towards this freedom of expression and creativity. Which is why it blows my mind that we don't lean further into that player freedom and get rid of the one thing that stands as this awkward weird hangover against it.


They/them

 
   
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 Argive wrote:
When I look at a model/faction/unit Im like:

- Ohh these guys are all about honour, loyalty, blah blah blah I wana get behind this.

- these guys are blood thirsty berserkers whose leader will likely chop you up if you standing next to him (praise be to kharne)

- These guys are demons who are all about excess etc etc.

- This is.. some sort of bioform that -" ohh my god my face is melted off!!!"

Id think when enetering 40k you pick the thing that speaks to you and I suppose represents what you like about the setting actors.

If the chief thing you care about the setting's faction is what dangles between the models legs, i think this is a problem unique to you and nobody should entertain changes based on this because the game/setting has nothing to do with genitelia...

If you have a problem with one particular group of toy soldiers all sporting penises at birth I think thats a 'you' problem ultimately...

Promoting an idea that there is something inherently wrong with people owning penises grouping together with other people who own penises is a bit strange...

In closing.
Mad mad world..


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Andykp wrote:
 the_scotsman wrote:
"here's this faction that we've turned into a gigantic uber-customizable metagolem of infinite customizability, you can have them in a car on the ground in a plane, in every conceivable playstyle that exists in the game, every single represented aesthetic, ninety-trillion different armor marks and styles, historical inspirations, every color in the rainbow, every race and culture of humanity...

...but you CANT make them ladies. that is the sacred line across which we must throw our bodies and souls! Space Marines can be every conceivable configuration of 'your dudes' imaginable, SO LONG AS YOU DO NOT IMAGINE THEM AS YOUR DUDETTES!


Love this. Exalted. This to me sums up 34 pages of banging our heads against an unreasonable brick wall.

And credit to Sgt smudge for his apparent endless patients trying to explain to people that women marines is not that big a deal game wise.

And to those saying it doesn’t matter because it is only toy soldiers, tell that to the ones who are sending the death threats and hate to people who only want the core faction of their favourite game not to exclude women.


The police surely sorted them out already.. Why would we need to tell them anything if they scum...?
But please show me where these people are I will educate them. They don't seem to be on here or my local club..

Nothing is stopping anyone from doing their models in any specific way.
GW wont come around your house and burn your collection.

But you also cannot expect everyone to like what you do or think its a good idea.
Like everything in life.



You say above that when some one looks at 40K they pick a faction that “speaks to you a represents what you like”. So surely if you are a young (or not so) female looking at 40K and the only place women appear to exist is in a fetish nun army or a handful of elves then you might be thinking this game isn’t meant for you. (Unless you are a nun fetishist) if the main faction the one one in every box and on the the covers of all the stuff etc, doesn’t allow women at all??? This is your own logic here. People are are drawn to factions that they find representative. It’s not about penis’s, it’s about being told you are not allowed or it’s not for you. It’s about saying half the game does not represent you at all.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 some bloke wrote:
Eh, I'm swayed. I was kind of clinging to the idea that the lore is an important thing, and I forgot just how much they had rewritten it already. I guess I was a grumpy old man shouting for the kids to get off his lawn, forgetting that the council had converted it to a playground over the last few years.

Why not just rewrite it so women are included? I already agreed it would be an awesome result.


Thank you for saying so, it makes the whole thread worth while. Never going to convince everyone but a few at a time and we will make the game a nicer place eventually. Good on you.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/14 22:47:26


 
   
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Female marines look good to me. Other opinions may differ.

https://www.myminifactory.com/object/3d-print-female-armored-soldier-173944


Please excuse any spelling errors. I use a tablet frequently and software keyboards are a pain!

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 Flinty wrote:
Female marines look good to me. Other opinions may differ.


Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that a starcraft model?
Also, it has pointy ears. Its a space elf.
I just want a space marine model with a female head. And I know I'm in the minority here, but I wish they would fix some proportions of Space Marines in the model lines and lore.
This has always been how I've wanted my Space Marines to look like. More form fitting suit, smaller pauldrons, slimmer legs and feet. Much larger range of motion than what typical artwork portrays and suggests. With the size of pauldrons depicted in typical artwork, You wouldn't even be able to raise your elbows 2 inches without squeezing your head with your armor.
Its simply more human proportioned. Which I find more believable.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/15 02:14:48


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 LumenPraebeo wrote:
 Flinty wrote:
Female marines look good to me. Other opinions may differ.


Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that a starcraft model?


Not sure if joking, but no, to me its clearly a Reiver from the backpack and armament.


Also, it has pointy ears. Its a space elf.

umm, nope. comms gear, not ears


I just want a space marine model with a female head. And I know I'm in the minority here, but I wish they would fix some proportions of Space Marines in the model lines and lore.
This has always been how I've wanted my Space Marines to look like. More form fitting suit, smaller pauldrons, slimmer legs and feet. Much larger range of motion than what typical artwork portrays and suggests. With the size of pauldrons depicted in typical artwork, You wouldn't even be able to raise your elbows 2 inches without squeezing your head with your armor.
Its simply more human proportioned. Which I find more believable.


This i also agree with

Please excuse any spelling errors. I use a tablet frequently and software keyboards are a pain!

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 Flinty wrote:
Female marines look good to me. Other opinions may differ.

https://www.myminifactory.com/object/3d-print-female-armored-soldier-173944



I've deliberately stayed out of the debate. I prefer a neutral stance on this.

In this case there's a lot of merit to the inclusion side, so long as their intro is 'tasteful' and written well (or even if gw just cut those 'thirteen words', referred to recruits with more gender neutral language like 'aspirants' or 'adolescents' in the lore and just shrugged their shoulders and 'left it up to the players' when asked. No sprue... but yet no barriers either... )but I also have nothing against the status quo, and this staying as it is either.

Also, can we call it astartestosterone in future?

That said that model is fantastic. Jesus, yes! All tne praise! I genuinely think its brilliant and i want it as my Minotaurs lt. I'm a 'primaris ONLY' player when it comes to marines. genuinely ambivalent about the primaris lore when they came out and still just shrug my shoulders at it, literally my only thoughts when I first saw them were 'damn I love these. These are the space marines I wish I had 20 years ago' and 'right, what am I getting.

Gw releases a line of these female reivers, or Valkyries or whatever you want to call then that looks even half as good as that model, and I'm utterly utterly sold. And buying all of them.

That said, I don't think female marines will attract more female players. I posted this in thr offtopic thread and I wont repeat it here, but sufficeth to say, I think female marines will appeal far more to guys who want female marine than girls looking in a gw window. Femarines are not a 'bad' thing. That said, I think the things holding girls back from 40k are a lot more due to the social dynamics of the hobby and its hobbyists than the models we plonk down. Like #meetoo and #blm, it's not female models that'll get girls interested here, it's an overall culture change in how we play and the community dynamics athat is required to affect the changes you want to see.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2021/06/15 11:10:54


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So the models will likely NOT attract females, but you know might? ALL THE SM Advertising, posters, and media spots. If one woman/they/them is persuaded to try putting money and time/effort into this hobby, then I saw it's worth it. Because we need someone in this hobby that knows how to shower.
   
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Ultimately though, if the only goal is to coax women into the hobby, then surely it is simpler for GW to just give equal advertising space to all the factions and not have to worry about making new parts, additional packaging requirements (their stuff is mass produced, so adding a sprue is not just "chucking one in the box", it's routing through the factory), and then also amending the lore (again), and then making new posters anyway because they need the female marines on them.

If you feature marines fighting against or alongside sisters of battle, guard, and all the other factions with female models, the posters will still feature marines and be recognizable, but they will also show female models.

Just changing the posters is a far simpler way to achieve this goal. And don't give me "but marines are the flagship", because they are only there because GW put them there. With decent marketing they can show off their other ranges as well.

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I am Thoruk, the Barbarian, Slayer of Ducks, and This is my blog!

I'm Selling Infinity, 40k, dystopian wars, UK based!

I also make designs for t-shirts and mugs and such on Redbubble! 
   
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U.k

 some bloke wrote:
Ultimately though, if the only goal is to coax women into the hobby, then surely it is simpler for GW to just give equal advertising space to all the factions and not have to worry about making new parts, additional packaging requirements (their stuff is mass produced, so adding a sprue is not just "chucking one in the box", it's routing through the factory), and then also amending the lore (again), and then making new posters anyway because they need the female marines on them.

If you feature marines fighting against or alongside sisters of battle, guard, and all the other factions with female models, the posters will still feature marines and be recognizable, but they will also show female models.

Just changing the posters is a far simpler way to achieve this goal. And don't give me "but marines are the flagship", because they are only there because GW put them there. With decent marketing they can show off their other ranges as well.


They use marines as the key faction because they sell, that’s what folk want. That’s why it’s marines vs whatever. So the women need to be in the marines. I’ve said a few times how sisters are not good for representation so won’t again. A couple of guard heads and the odd elf isn’t going to cut. Representation in marketing works, that’s why companies go out of their way to have ethnically diverse adverts and staff up front. But sadly it works the other way too. Saying no women in the the key faction has the opposite effect. No other faction comes close in terms of clout as the marines. And they are the ones with the no women policy.
   
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Andykp wrote:
 some bloke wrote:
Ultimately though, if the only goal is to coax women into the hobby, then surely it is simpler for GW to just give equal advertising space to all the factions and not have to worry about making new parts, additional packaging requirements (their stuff is mass produced, so adding a sprue is not just "chucking one in the box", it's routing through the factory), and then also amending the lore (again), and then making new posters anyway because they need the female marines on them.

If you feature marines fighting against or alongside sisters of battle, guard, and all the other factions with female models, the posters will still feature marines and be recognizable, but they will also show female models.

Just changing the posters is a far simpler way to achieve this goal. And don't give me "but marines are the flagship", because they are only there because GW put them there. With decent marketing they can show off their other ranges as well.


They use marines as the key faction because they sell, that’s what folk want. That’s why it’s marines vs whatever. So the women need to be in the marines. I’ve said a few times how sisters are not good for representation so won’t again. A couple of guard heads and the odd elf isn’t going to cut. Representation in marketing works, that’s why companies go out of their way to have ethnically diverse adverts and staff up front. But sadly it works the other way too. Saying no women in the the key faction has the opposite effect. No other faction comes close in terms of clout as the marines. And they are the ones with the no women policy.


And it returns to the only reason being that marines are in the forefront. The only reason marines are in the forefront is because GW put marines in the forefront.

Frankly, their selling power has probably gone stagnant. If they put up posters with their other, more interesting/diverse/other factions then they would probably generate a lot of interest, not only from women (which I honestly don't think it would achieve anyway) but from people who aren't interested in space marines. Chuk a poster of Orks fighting Guard up (with female guard) and I bet they won't see sales drop.

Again I ask, if it wasn't marines, would it matter? If Orks were the poster boys, or Tyranids, or Guard, or Sisters?

"because they are the product used to advertise" is a reason to change the product used for advertising. If a company that sells power tools and makeup wants t oimprove their customer base to get more men through the doors, they would put up more posters for power tools, not try to make makeup more appealing to men.

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After 35 pages if you are still confused as to why this is important, that's entirely on you.

If you think ANY other faction has the representation that Space Marines do, I honestly don't know how to respond to that. You are being willfully ignorant of the basic truth. Astartes are the single most promoted faction in the history of 40k. Look at all the media that comes out of the GW GT. I am betting you most of the "approved media" will be of Astartes focus. Maybe some Sisters or Deldar to pander, but mostly it will be Astartes of some flavor.
   
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Spoiler:
 some bloke wrote:

And it returns to the only reason being that marines are in the forefront. The only reason marines are in the forefront is because GW put marines in the forefront.

Frankly, their selling power has probably gone stagnant. If they put up posters with their other, more interesting/diverse/other factions then they would probably generate a lot of interest, not only from women (which I honestly don't think it would achieve anyway) but from people who aren't interested in space marines. Chuk a poster of Orks fighting Guard up (with female guard) and I bet they won't see sales drop.

The past 3 years would disagree with your belief that SM have gone stagnant in the marketing department. GW has seen record sales and 40k has continued to have SM at its core throughout all of this. SM are the single most profitable faction GW has across every single range it makes and while it would be nice to see more of the game factions represented in marketing, that isn't what is happening in reality which is what our arguments must be based on.

Spoiler:
Again I ask, if it wasn't marines, would it matter? If Orks were the poster boys, or Tyranids, or Guard, or Sisters?

"because they are the product used to advertise" is a reason to change the product used for advertising. If a company that sells power tools and makeup wants t oimprove their customer base to get more men through the doors, they would put up more posters for power tools, not try to make makeup more appealing to men.

The issue with the whole "but what if it wasn't SM as the flagship" is that we have absolutely no idea. Who knows what 40k would look like if SM weren't the poster faction for the entire thing.
As for your analogy, you've taken two entirely separate products and tried to equate them to a single product.
GW sells models and is trying to sell more models, by increasing representation and diversity in the model line (specifically the flagship model line) they can then sell more models to more people.
Asking if "X was Y why would this entire situation relating to X even matter?" is such a bad question.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/15 14:47:21


 
   
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 some bloke wrote:
Andykp wrote:
 some bloke wrote:
Ultimately though, if the only goal is to coax women into the hobby, then surely it is simpler for GW to just give equal advertising space to all the factions and not have to worry about making new parts, additional packaging requirements (their stuff is mass produced, so adding a sprue is not just "chucking one in the box", it's routing through the factory), and then also amending the lore (again), and then making new posters anyway because they need the female marines on them.

If you feature marines fighting against or alongside sisters of battle, guard, and all the other factions with female models, the posters will still feature marines and be recognizable, but they will also show female models.

Just changing the posters is a far simpler way to achieve this goal. And don't give me "but marines are the flagship", because they are only there because GW put them there. With decent marketing they can show off their other ranges as well.


They use marines as the key faction because they sell, that’s what folk want. That’s why it’s marines vs whatever. So the women need to be in the marines. I’ve said a few times how sisters are not good for representation so won’t again. A couple of guard heads and the odd elf isn’t going to cut. Representation in marketing works, that’s why companies go out of their way to have ethnically diverse adverts and staff up front. But sadly it works the other way too. Saying no women in the the key faction has the opposite effect. No other faction comes close in terms of clout as the marines. And they are the ones with the no women policy.


And it returns to the only reason being that marines are in the forefront. The only reason marines are in the forefront is because GW put marines in the forefront.

Frankly, their selling power has probably gone stagnant. If they put up posters with their other, more interesting/diverse/other factions then they would probably generate a lot of interest, not only from women (which I honestly don't think it would achieve anyway) but from people who aren't interested in space marines. Chuk a poster of Orks fighting Guard up (with female guard) and I bet they won't see sales drop.

Again I ask, if it wasn't marines, would it matter? If Orks were the poster boys, or Tyranids, or Guard, or Sisters?

"because they are the product used to advertise" is a reason to change the product used for advertising. If a company that sells power tools and makeup wants t oimprove their customer base to get more men through the doors, they would put up more posters for power tools, not try to make makeup more appealing to men.


Pretty much this. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy that marines are the most popular because of the sunk-cost of GW constantly updating and adding to the range that they at this point have dedicated entire financial quarters of the year to SM releases.

I'd also argue that AoS or even WFB in prior years are an example of what it would be like if you don't have only a single faction pushed as the flagship. Chaos Warriors were the closest to the iconic SM design as far as their armour goes, and while they got some decent attention they definitely didn't hog releases the way SM did and they were effectively an all-male presenting army barring Valkia. Certainly you'd have more variety in terms of how females are included while also fulfilling the need for other armies to be updated, killing two birds with one stone if you increased female representation amongst existing factions while lowering the output for SM marketing and releases.
   
 
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