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You've misread the discussion. Do you think the Rubric UNIT has the Psyker keyword while the Sorcerer MODEL is alive and in the UNIT?

EightFoldPath wrote:
You've misread the discussion. Do you think the Rubric UNIT has the Psyker keyword while the Sorcerer MODEL is alive and in the UNIT?

Just to reiterate my position:

No, the unit does not, only the sorcerer has. Any vulnerability to ANTI-PSYKER weapons only becomes relevant when the sorcerer is the only model left in the unit.

My logic is based on the fact their is no mechanism to target the (aspiring) sorcerer, as hes not a CHARACTER who could be singled out by PRECISION weapons, has no separate statline independent of his rubrics, thus any hits to the squad are done to those rubrics, who are explicitly not PSYKERS, and any wounds done to the unit would be allocated to the model the tson player chooses.

I understand your position, just wondering what tneva was on about.

xerxeskingofking wrote:

 xeen wrote:
The soulgrinder looks great for AT for us. Vehicles don't generate Cabal Points anyway, and it is unlikely any vehicles will get benefit from the detachment bonus.

Soulgrinders are chaos demon units. I
Know we can ally them in, but were you thinking of defilers?

That said, yes it does look good

Yea take as allies. I mean there is no difference in taking a soul grinder as ally and defiler. Neither will generate cabal and neither benefit from the detachment ability. I mean the defiler might benefit from TS strats but likely it won’t be efficient for them anyway and you could cabal the defiler with the move or save but it will probably never come up. Just raw data sheet the soul grinder looks great for AT punch unless way over costed

An interesting idea. At 2,000 points you get up to 500 points of Tzeentch Daemons. If there are any good datasheets to use well worth considering.

The remove Armour Saves ritual doesn't specify you have to attack with a TSons unit either.

EightFoldPath wrote:
An interesting idea. At 2,000 points you get up to 500 points of Tzeentch Daemons. If there are any good datasheets to use well worth considering.

The remove Armour Saves ritual doesn't specify you have to attack with a TSons unit either.

yea, so far the tzeentch daemon data sheets look pretty good except the screamers. Flamers are probably a bit redundant as we can take flamer rubrics (although if daemon flamers are cheaper by a wide margin that might make them more appealing as allies), but like I said the soul grinder looks great. Also, the Lord of Change, just as a one off being taken for its shooting, might also be good. Finally, if pink horrors are cheap, and Tgors are to pricey, pink horrors might be a nice back field alternative to Tgors as I am sure Tgors will not produce cabal points.

The allied system is really nice in that without having to worry about a formation, we can just take the data sheets we want, even if it is just on large unit like the LoC or Soul Grinder.

GW's online store now lets you search by model keyword (although it seems pretty wonky). So far, it looks like Magnus has Deep Strike.

Take the store with a grain of salt, they keywords have been updated several times and not all of them make sense.

 The Red Hobbit wrote:
Take the store with a grain of salt, they keywords have been updated several times and not all of them make sense.

However, magnus DOES have Deep Strike now.

Theirs a lot of interesting choices in the data cards to unpick, but so far my favourite 2 are spawn are now 4+,5++,5+++ AND regeneration d3 wounds each command phase.

Also tzanngor can generate Cabal Points when on objectives

xerxeskingofking wrote:

 The Red Hobbit wrote:
Take the store with a grain of salt, they keywords have been updated several times and not all of them make sense.

Also tzanngor can generate Cabal Points when on objectives

The play seems to be to use Rubrics to take objectives (with Bringers of Change letting you do full Wound rerolls) and Tzaangors to keep them (to generate more Cabal points).

Need to be pretty cheap though. Well less than half rubrics or more rubrics give more cabal without needing to be at objective along with better stats

Tzaangors have to roll a 4+ to get their cabal points too, I think it's a trap honestly, you'd have better luck getting extra cabal points from Helbrutes.

The SoT look really solid. Being wounded on 4+ and 3+ instead of 3+ and 2+ could be huge. I also like the dreadnoughts, I use them as I have the old Forgeworld thousand sons specific ones, and generating cabal points will be nice. All of the characters look pretty solid, Ahriman still looks the best though, and no longer really any reason to take on a disc as the movement is wasted and you only get 1 wound, unless it is extremely cheap. The Infernal Master also looks pretty solid on a larger group of Rubrics.

Overall I am pretty happy with what we got

Wait, Magnus doesn't get his Crimson King ability if he comes in from Deep Strike right? He'll miss the "start of battle round" timing because he isn't on the table.

 Arachnofiend wrote:
Wait, Magnus doesn't get his Crimson King ability if he comes in from Deep Strike right? He'll miss the "start of battle round" timing because he isn't on the table.

That would have been case in 9e. Trying to find rule in 10e but so far no luck. Transport has but that's for embarked.

(for record in aos off board is fine unless ability etc says in battlefield. Transports meanwhile have contents be in battlefield>

I actually kind of like how each of the Heldrakes have a different ability for each faction, both the 1k Sons and WE look quite nice. Same for Forgefiends which have fun abilities for each.

Infernal Master is also looking quite strong. Ahriman is surprising, retaining the same powers and abilities while on the Disc, compared to the Eldar Farseer who switches on the Bike.

 The Red Hobbit wrote:
I actually kind of like how each of the Heldrakes have a different ability for each faction, both the 1k Sons and WE look quite nice. Same for Forgefiends which have fun abilities for each.

Infernal Master is also looking quite strong. Ahriman is surprising, retaining the same powers and abilities while on the Disc, compared to the Eldar Farseer who switches on the Bike.

Yea I like that as well. Yea Ahriman is surprising, especially since the exhaled on disk is different than foot. Guess just saving points on not using the disc with him.

Also I am not sure if like an exhalted or infernal master more for a big 10 man unit of rubrics. Both seem excellent.

I'm taking Magnus - 100%. He seems like he can be made very durable. One damage 0 from 'Destined' and then two pocket rerolls - one from Magnus and a second from a nearby Sorc with 'Lord of Forbidden Lore' ( and get refunded two Cabal with a sneaky helbrute ). Combine with the fact that he can get cover and has a -1D ability...good luck!

There also seems to be very few duds? I even like Tzaangors ( points aside ). The lowly sorcerer has a great damage spell and support, too.

Ahriman appears to be the only valid buffer for Warpflamers, but you could run them without and just get psychic on them to push DW.

Part of me feels like MSU is viable? It's going to be really hard to pick losing units unless the points are horrible.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 xeen wrote:
Also I am not sure if like an exhalted or infernal master more for a big 10 man unit of rubrics. Both seem excellent.

I'm keen on the Infernal to get the +1S +1D relic and then using his ability to push an extra 6 for DW. A couple 5 mans with standard sorcerers could also put out a lot of hurt. Each 6 is 4 hits and with DW it should do really well if you spike just a handful of 6s.

Impossible Form on Magnus means D1 weapons will become Damage 0 wounds?
There is no limitation to minimum 1 Damange after reduction...

Ah yes another of about million times this has come up.

3 options.

A) rule glossary(which we haven't seen yet) covers it
B) gw errataes fast. They have doee this about 5-6 times,
C) gw broke 10th ed so bad 2++ rerollable of 7th ed looks nice period

So, a few more effects and tricks I have seen being discussed elsewhere:

One of our strats, ensorcelled infusion, gives all infernal bolters (plus the assorted combi bolters, pistols, etc) str 5 and [PSYCHIC]. The latter is particularly interesting as it then qualifies the unit for our detachment bonuses like [lethal hits], [sustained hits] and [devastating wounds]. Combined with the strat "warp sight ", we can [ignore cover] and [indirect fire] on that squad as well.


Granted, its CP hungry I'm a edition with little CP, but it's a cool trick

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Ahriman appears to be the only valid buffer for Warpflamers, but you could run them without and just get psychic on them to push DW.

ensorcelled infusion only works on bolters


Automatically Appended Next Post:

xerxeskingofking wrote:
So, a few more effects and tricks I have seen being discussed elsewhere:

One of our strats, ensorcelled infusion, gives all infernal bolters (plus the assorted combi bolters, pistols, etc) str 5 and [PSYCHIC]. The latter is particularly interesting as it then qualifies the unit for our detachment bonuses like [lethal hits], [sustained hits] and [devastating wounds]. Combined with the strat "warp sight ", we can [ignore cover] and [indirect fire] on that squad as well.


Granted, its CP hungry I'm a edition with little CP, but it's a cool trick

can we use multiple strats on one unit in the same phase t his edition?

Yes. No change there.

tneva82 wrote:
Yes. No change there.

oh man, i've been playing too much AoS lol, got the two systems mixed up

 VladimirHerzog wrote:
ensorcelled infusion only works on bolters

Ah. Thanks for the correction. I guess I'm ok with that.

Just finished my first readthrough of our index. I feel like we're actually in a really solid place?

I get the impression our anti-tank options got a lot better. So while we might not be able to reliably psychic things to death, it seems like we have more options for dealing with vehicles and at longer range (provided you're okay with fielding some vehicles/monsters).

I like all of our troops. Rubrics seem like they can do some okay damage and are very well supported by our characters. Cultists are useful regardless of whether they're killing or dying, and giving them a scout move is a neat choice. Tzaangor will need to be to be worth it, but using them as Cabal Point batteries is a fun gimmick. Seems like they *might* be reasonably durable if you take them with a shaman; probably as an outflanking unit.

Magnus feels slightly more tame but still good. My gut says he's in a decent place.

Footprinces are interesting in that their special abilities are buffs for infantry. So they're a beatstick unit, but their special rules focus on helping rubricae shoot and survive rather than helping the princes themselves get into combat or do damage.

Vortex beasts seem pretty scary?

The only unit I don't see myself taking are the Tzaangor enlightened; they just don't seem to contribute enough offensively compared to other options, but maybe they'll be inexpensive.

But yeah. Seems like we made out okay. Dare I say we might even be in a better place than 'nids?

 Wyldhunt wrote:
Tzaangor will need to be to be worth it, but using them as Cabal Point batteries is a fun gimmick. Seems like they *might* be reasonably durable if you take them with a shaman; probably as an outflanking unit.

As tneva mentioned earlier in the thread I think these are a trap, only a 50% chance to gain a Cabal point; they'd have to be very points efficient to be worthwhile imo.

But yeah. Seems like we made out okay. Dare I say we might even be in a better place than 'nids?

Easily, of all the armies previewed so far 1k Sons are in the top 10 if not top 5. Well, assuming points don't drastically change from 9e. I like the Tyranid units previewed but they don't seem as strong or well synergized as 1k Sons.

I keep wishing Fatecaster Greatbows were made into some sort of magic anti-tank/monster weapon, its really the only way IMO that a unit like Tzaangor Enlightened can find a viable niche in the codex, for several editions now they basically just kind of exist without a clearly defined role or purpose.

Fatecaster greatbows might be useful to pick off characters in units since it's one of 10th's big thing. Especially with 30" range on 10" fly units. Still need to see if it's worth it to stick in a shaman for the Cabal points and bonuses.

MVBs look pretty good at last. But I'm pretty conflicted about them definitely loosing their fun random mechanic.
All our sorcerer's seem to be doing something unique to their squad and have their own role. Really want to fit in as much of them as possible.

TS are definitely the faction I'm most exited about with CSM.
Hell, I even want to try out the Defiler ! Too bad I find the kit so ugly

ok, so my quikmaff says a squad of 6 Enlightened with greatbows, led by a Shaman, can kill a 4w, t4, 3+/4++ character, like a chaplain, LT, or Librarian with reasonable chances of success.

points dependant, it MIGHT be a ok unit for use sniping out support characters like that. Currently such a unit is 168 pts, and i cant see it being much different (the demonstration games have general model counts that are roughly equivilent to late 9th, so its a useful enough measure, at least until tomorrow when the new points drop)