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I figure there is little point in reading much into the delay.
Heck, going out for a walk on a nice day would take priority from their viewpoint.

I think I have zero appreciation for the regular interval of updates because we are not the target audience.
Gee-wiz, we have been working so diligently keeping our backers informed AG/FTC! (BTW, the glossary notes for these are kinda funny: The adrenal flying terror causer!)

No actual comments on things actually being done, money spent, or a manufacture/cargo/pack/ship date.
An update every 2 weeks or every 3 months makes no difference to us.

But when will he post pictures of the geese he saw while sitting in the park?

After Scott comes back with the covefe.

The thing with Scott here is that he took up a position to defend the indefensible. If we give him the benefit of the doubt here and assume he knew nothing of the real situation going in, but after that he's either party to outright lies (Stuff is happening!) or incompetence (We can't get our act together!), and possibly fraud (We used the money for something else!). The only other option is that Kevin is treating him exactly like the rest of us (Lies and BS, smoke and mirrors) and he's taken a job to feed us the same obvious lies.

If he could deliver actual proof of progress it might be different, but it's been how long now since he took the job, and basically nothing but old renders?

Now that Christmas Surprise Package season has officially begun, not much else is happening there anyway. From October to January, Kevin will actually do some work: selling overstock, old junk, damaged items, and -- if you ask -- RRT.
He will sign anything he can get his hands on, including art prints where he wasn't the artist.
Everything else will be ignored, because this is the only time of the year that PB actually makes any money.

Latest Update is up.

Credit where credit is due, the Force Orgs are up.

That they're woefully unspectacular, do not appear to be any different to the existing materials mechanically, are poorly laid out, and potentially an IP breach are completely different matters.

But after three months, they're done. So yay.

It might be said that I'm overly negative, but geez, I was expecting a little more effort than that. At least some NEW information or deployment options, given the wait.

EDIT: Well, it at least explains the Wave 2 delay. If that's the best after three months of "working on it", then the Wave 2 delays are self explanatory.

OK, so, didn't Mike's org charts, produced at least a year ago, have the correct art assets and such on them?

Was it all artwork from RRT?

Because I seem to recall that group (in general) using a lot of stuff randomly found on Deviant Art and Google Image searches, which would probably make it a no-go for public release.

Morgan Vening wrote:
Latest Update is up.

Credit where credit is due, the Force Orgs are up.

That they're woefully unspectacular, do not appear to be any different to the existing materials mechanically, are poorly laid out, and potentially an IP breach are completely different matters.

But after three months, they're done. So yay.

It might be said that I'm overly negative, but geez, I was expecting a little more effort than that. At least some NEW information or deployment options, given the wait.

EDIT: Well, it at least explains the Wave 2 delay. If that's the best after three months of "working on it", then the Wave 2 delays are self explanatory.

Well he did write that the designs aren't final. Perhaps it would benefit you all to make an attempt to work with Scott and provide feedback on the Orgs.

 Forar wrote:
Was it all artwork from RRT?

Because I seem to recall that group (in general) using a lot of stuff randomly found on Deviant Art and Google Image searches, which would probably make it a no-go for public release.

Could be. I assumed that the assets had been clipped from the RRT rulebook, promo crap, box art, and such.

Just a thought about ole uncle Kev - it's very possible Scott signed the infamous PB NDA and no one outside of the inner (and in this sassy reporters opinion, downright pathetic) circle will ever know.

Now let's start grabbing those grab bags - and we may discover where Scott went - I just requested him in my bag.

Morgan Vening wrote:
Latest Update is up.

Credit where credit is due, the Force Orgs are up.

That they're woefully unspectacular, do not appear to be any different to the existing materials mechanically, are poorly laid out, and potentially an IP breach are completely different matters.

But after three months, they're done. So yay.

It might be said that I'm overly negative, but geez, I was expecting a little more effort than that. At least some NEW information or deployment options, given the wait.

EDIT: Well, it at least explains the Wave 2 delay. If that's the best after three months of "working on it", then the Wave 2 delays are self explanatory.

Easy to explain......
1. The symbols are the same as the ones on the Force Orgs that I did. I could not remember where I got them. I was asked though. Told Scott they needed to be either redone or given credit for since they were on a free site.
2. The Orgs shown are a bastardization of the ones I did and the ones Tom did. I naturally prefer mine.
3. This is something they could and should have shared many moons ago.
4. Throwing out our Powerpoint files and not something redone professionally was just asking for problems.

These are the ones I finished on 6/13/15........

I'm furious (again...). They might as well have us vote on which quote we all to accept - without revealing the details, so Kevin can all throw us under the bus when the manufacturer "bilks" them out of the remainder of the funds and leaves the project without funds to actually finish the sprues.

God, how does this terrible company continue to survive? It's like the freakin' Rasputin of game companies.

Did anyone notice the icons from the force org Charts are Creative Commons and Palladium gave no credit?

 Desmodus wrote:

Morgan Vening wrote:
Latest Update is up.

Credit where credit is due, the Force Orgs are up.

That they're woefully unspectacular, do not appear to be any different to the existing materials mechanically, are poorly laid out, and potentially an IP breach are completely different matters.

But after three months, they're done. So yay.

It might be said that I'm overly negative, but geez, I was expecting a little more effort than that. At least some NEW information or deployment options, given the wait.

EDIT: Well, it at least explains the Wave 2 delay. If that's the best after three months of "working on it", then the Wave 2 delays are self explanatory.

Well he did write that the designs aren't final. Perhaps it would benefit you all to make an attempt to work with Scott and provide feedback on the Orgs.

Well, I couldn't give a crap about the aesthetics. They've had 3.5+ months to work on this, and they obviously didn't put any effort into the visuals. So let's check the mechanicals.

I've just done a comparison of this new revision that took months to check for gameplay/balance issues, with the 3+ year old cards now available through the DriveThru page. It's possible I may have missed some things, but I did check carefully. It took about an hour to cross check (though admittedly, I only checked from, not to, so if there's options in the cards not represented on the ForceOrg, I've missed it), so the writing of this shouldn't have taken more than 3-4h, from scratch, let alone the condition it was in which Scott first became aware of it.

UEDF Destroid Core
Command Destroid is an Upgrade rather than a Special.

UEDF Valkyrie Core
Jotun Squadron, +10pts
YF-4 Squadron +5pts
Jotun Support Squad +5pts
VF-1R is an Upgrade instead of a Support Card
Long Range Missiles, Ammo 8 to 6, equivalent ~25% price drops (already errated, I believe?)
YF-4 Medium Missiles, appears to be a mistaken cut and paste of Valk Gravity Bombs.

Zentradi Elite
Nousjadeul-Ger Squad Flechette Cannon Upgrade -3pts (Discount only applies to Elite squad, Regult Squad still pay 23pts)
Nousgarma-Ger Special Upgrades prorated (the original 1 unit Special card paid as much for the upgrades as the 3 unit Core card)

Zentradi Regult
Allow Regult/HInf/LInf Squads to take Veteran, but don't provide cost (10/5/5 on 2014 versions).
Infantry Officer Upgrade for 10pts, or 5pts as a Special.

Malcontent Aerial
VF-1R is now an Upgrade instead of a Support Card

Malcontent Ground
Main Battle Squadron allowed GU-11 Upgrade, but Upgrade now only allowed for Spartans (assume copypaste error)
Zentradi Assault Squadron GU-11 Upgrade error as above
Zentradi Assault Squadron Flechette Cannon Upgrade +5pts
Zentradi Infantry Officer Special appears pointless (as you can get it at the same price as a Core or Support Upgrade)

So, got to say I'm not impressed. Other than Jotuns and YF-4's costing slightly more, and a couple of points fixes (but many more added errors), the only thing that really counts is command options (and VF-R's) now being upgrades instead of Special (or Support) cards. It's a decent change, but that's not a significant enough shakeup to warrant the delay, as for the most part, this is just a transcription of the already existing cards, and hence the "gameplay/balance" argument used several times as an excuse, falls flat.

So, that leaves ease of use, and that's where it all falls apart for me. I don't hate the use of the icons (though I'd prefer a short text description instead, but the costs should be next to them. Kind of defeats the purpose of having to cross-reference stuff to figure out costs (as the costs of each upgrade is dependent on the number of applicable units in the formation. ie, Malcontent Improvised Bombs can cost 12, 10, 8, 5 or 2pts, depending on the card it's being purchased for. You shouldn't have to flip between pages to find the cost of a single formation. That's the whole purpose of a Force Org.

Honestly, with the "gameplay/balance" excuses, I expected a significant shakeup, or alternate army compositions, or something. Apparently, "more fool me", because in hindsight, I shouldn't have expected much more than the bare minimum. And the bare minimum, 3+ months later than it should have been, is what we got. I mentioned elsewhere, if they'd done Force Orgs for different variants (like a Vermillion Squadron Force Org, or a Miriya force that excluded access to MPA's at all in exchange for something), that shook up the game, then there might be something to it.

But this? I could have done it myself, in a couple hours, using the official cards, and not have had it sit in limbo for 3 months.

 dreamakuma wrote:
Did anyone notice the icons from the force org Charts are Creative Commons and Palladium gave no credit?

Spoiler:

Actually that is explained if you read my post ^^^

Morgan Vening wrote:

Zentradi Regult
Allow Regult/HInf/LInf Squads to take Veteran, but don't provide cost (10/5/5 on 2014 versions).

Unless I'm missing something, the veteran upgrades are in the powerpoint slide below... and they seem to have been jacked up significantly for some reason.



Isn't the common thinking that Zent have a significant disadvantage among those who play? That cohort doesn't include me sadly as only one person every took up an offer to play/learn the game with my fully painted forces and it was a tiny single card demo game at that.

 Stormonu wrote:
I'm furious (again...). They might as well have us vote on which quote we all to accept - without revealing the details, so Kevin can all throw us under the bus when the manufacturer "bilks" them out of the remainder of the funds and leaves the project without funds to actually finish the sprues.

God, how does this terrible company continue to survive? It's like the freakin' Rasputin of game companies.

Pa Pa Palladium
Lover of Kickstarter funds
There was an ego that was really large?

 dreamakuma wrote:
Did anyone notice the icons from the force org Charts are Creative Commons and Palladium gave no credit?

Spoiler:

It would appear that they are updating the files to correct that oversight via he update I just read in my e-mail. At least Scott has the presence of mind to do so... can't say the same for Kevin.

Morgan Vening wrote:

Spoiler:

 Desmodus wrote:

Morgan Vening wrote:
Latest Update is up.
[spoiler]
Credit where credit is due, the Force Orgs are up.

That they're woefully unspectacular, do not appear to be any different to the existing materials mechanically, are poorly laid out, and potentially an IP breach are completely different matters.

But after three months, they're done. So yay.

It might be said that I'm overly negative, but geez, I was expecting a little more effort than that. At least some NEW information or deployment options, given the wait.

EDIT: Well, it at least explains the Wave 2 delay. If that's the best after three months of "working on it", then the Wave 2 delays are self explanatory.

Well he did write that the designs aren't final. Perhaps it would benefit you all to make an attempt to work with Scott and provide feedback on the Orgs.

Well, I couldn't give a crap about the aesthetics. They've had 3.5+ months to work on this, and they obviously didn't put any effort into the visuals. So let's check the mechanicals.

I've just done a comparison of this new revision that took months to check for gameplay/balance issues, with the 3+ year old cards now available through the DriveThru page. It's possible I may have missed some things, but I did check carefully. It took about an hour to cross check (though admittedly, I only checked from, not to, so if there's options in the cards not represented on the ForceOrg, I've missed it), so the writing of this shouldn't have taken more than 3-4h, from scratch, let alone the condition it was in which Scott first became aware of it.

UEDF Destroid Core
Command Destroid is an Upgrade rather than a Special.

UEDF Valkyrie Core
Jotun Squadron, +10pts
YF-4 Squadron +5pts
Jotun Support Squad +5pts
VF-1R is an Upgrade instead of a Support Card
Long Range Missiles, Ammo 8 to 6, equivalent ~25% price drops (already errated, I believe?)
YF-4 Medium Missiles, appears to be a mistaken cut and paste of Valk Gravity Bombs.

Zentradi Elite
Nousjadeul-Ger Squad Flechette Cannon Upgrade -3pts (Discount only applies to Elite squad, Regult Squad still pay 23pts)
Nousgarma-Ger Special Upgrades prorated (the original 1 unit Special card paid as much for the upgrades as the 3 unit Core card)

Zentradi Regult
Allow Regult/HInf/LInf Squads to take Veteran, but don't provide cost (10/5/5 on 2014 versions).
Infantry Officer Upgrade for 10pts, or 5pts as a Special.

Malcontent Aerial
VF-1R is now an Upgrade instead of a Support Card

Malcontent Ground
Main Battle Squadron allowed GU-11 Upgrade, but Upgrade now only allowed for Spartans (assume copypaste error)
Zentradi Assault Squadron GU-11 Upgrade error as above
Zentradi Assault Squadron Flechette Cannon Upgrade +5pts
Zentradi Infantry Officer Special appears pointless (as you can get it at the same price as a Core or Support Upgrade)

So, got to say I'm not impressed. Other than Jotuns and YF-4's costing slightly more, and a couple of points fixes (but many more added errors), the only thing that really counts is command options (and VF-R's) now being upgrades instead of Special (or Support) cards. It's a decent change, but that's not a significant enough shakeup to warrant the delay, as for the most part, this is just a transcription of the already existing cards, and hence the "gameplay/balance" argument used several times as an excuse, falls flat.

So, that leaves ease of use, and that's where it all falls apart for me. I don't hate the use of the icons (though I'd prefer a short text description instead, but the costs should be next to them. Kind of defeats the purpose of having to cross-reference stuff to figure out costs (as the costs of each upgrade is dependent on the number of applicable units in the formation. ie, Malcontent Improvised Bombs can cost 12, 10, 8, 5 or 2pts, depending on the card it's being purchased for. You shouldn't have to flip between pages to find the cost of a single formation. That's the whole purpose of a Force Org.

Honestly, with the "gameplay/balance" excuses, I expected a significant shakeup, or alternate army compositions, or something. Apparently, "more fool me", because in hindsight, I shouldn't have expected much more than the bare minimum. And the bare minimum, 3+ months later than it should have been, is what we got. I mentioned elsewhere, if they'd done Force Orgs for different variants (like a Vermillion Squadron Force Org, or a Miriya force that excluded access to MPA's at all in exchange for something), that shook up the game, then there might be something to it.

But this? I could have done it myself, in a couple hours, using the official cards, and not have had it sit in limbo for 3 months.

On this I agree fully. These force org charts are underwhelming in every sense of the word. I am not sure any of it really makes a tinker's cuss. I am a little confused what the intent was. Its one thing to do a force org chart for basic game play purposes (and I fully agree that without all the models, a lot of this is pointless), its another to create themed forces.

Yet another check mark in the ever continuing fail factory that is Palladium.

Because, as a small-minded chimp whose every action is motivated by the fear of being sued (and the hope that he can sue someone else!), of course Kevin would immediately send his minion out to fix that.

Merijeek wrote:
Because, as a small-minded chimp whose every action is motivated by the fear of being sued (and the hope that he can sue someone else!), of course Kevin would immediately send his minion out to fix that.

Please don't lump small-minded chimps in with this fail factory. Even Palladium offends their small mindedness.

Made a few changes from the notes you provided Morgan

 warboss wrote:

Morgan Vening wrote:

Zentradi Regult
Allow Regult/HInf/LInf Squads to take Veteran, but don't provide cost (10/5/5 on 2014 versions).

Unless I'm missing something, the veteran upgrades are in the powerpoint slide below... and they seem to have been jacked up significantly for some reason

Nope, you're missing something.

Due to PB's decision to use a weird naming terminology, there's a difference between Squadron (the large core cards) and Squad (the smaller support cards). The Squadrons have the upgrade, and the appropriate costs to do so. The Squads have the upgrade, but no stated cost. It's not hard to figure out what it's supposed to be (half the size of the Squadron being half the cost), but it is an omission from the lists.

 Mike1975 wrote:

Morgan Vening wrote:
Latest Update is up.

Credit where credit is due, the Force Orgs are up.

Easy to explain......
1. The symbols are the same as the ones on the Force Orgs that I did. I could not remember where I got them. I was asked though. Told Scott they needed to be either redone or given credit for since they were on a free site.

Palladium is a copyright infringer? This should be fun!

Ah, thanks for the clarification. My bad...

 warboss wrote:
Ah, thanks for the clarification. My bad...

No worries. And the use of squadron/squad just adds unnecessary confusion. While both ARE used in military TOE's, they're not normally both used in the same. TOE's vary from country to country, and even branch to branch.

For aircraft, a Group is made up of 2+ Wings, which is made up of 3+ Squadrons which is made up of 3+ Flights, each consisting of 3-6 actual aircraft.
Weirdly, USN and Commonwealth forces use this, but the USAF and USMC flip the definition of Group and Wing. I'm sure THAT has never caused confusion. Additionally, some TOE's list the individual planes as Elements, but the USAF considers an Element to be 2-3 aircraft.

For infantry, a Battalion is made up of 2-10 Companies, which is made up of 3-10 Platoons, which is made up of 2-4 Squads of 8-12 men (that can be split into 2-4 Fire Teams).

For armored, there's a lot of variation, as there's not a lot of uniformity. A WW2 Tank Battalion was made up of 53 Shermans, split into 3 Companies (approx 17 each), with each Company being split into 3 Platoons (approx 5 each). It also had a Company of 17 Stuarts, and a crapload of other personnel and equipment as seen in the link.

Battletech uses Battalions (3C+1L), Companies (3L) and Lances (4 Mechs) for it's original TOE. It was Battletech that got me interested in TOE's to begin with way back at the start. I loved their 3025 listings and would pore through the books.

That PB decided on taking two similarly named (but significantly different) TOE definitions and making it confusing, is classic PB. They should have definitely used Flight and Element for aircraft (including Valks regardless of configuration), and Squad and Fireteam for ground forces (or Platoon and Section). Just to avoid confusions. But it's probably too late now.

Honestly, I believe they used squadron because that's how they're referred to in the (translated) cartoon. Skull Squadron and Vermillion Squadron being the two I remember being mentioned.

 Stormonu wrote:
Honestly, I believe they used squadron because that's how they're referred to in the (translated) cartoon. Skull Squadron and Vermillion Squadron being the two I remember being mentioned.

That's a good point regarding the series. Then use Squadron (for the Core card) and Flight or Element for the Support Card for aerial formations, even if it's not properly representative, it's at least still within one step of the same standard TOE naming convention.

And then Squad and Fireteam for ground formations.

So you even get some kind of alliteration of Squadron/Squad as the Core, and Flight/Fireteam as the Support.

But Squadron/Squad was always going to have at least some confusion.