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Dakkadakka petition to save White Dwarf.

<!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--><!--[endif]--> What has happened to our favourite monthly hobby magazine and why is it a soulless sales catalogue alienating hobbyists? – your C U S T O M E R S gw!!

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Where is the personality?

Where is the quality?

Where is the creativity to match the backround, products and art?

Where are the new rules for us to try and to courage cool conversions?

Where are the massive battle reports with dramatis personae, converted armies and terrain made just for the occasion?

Where are the hobby veterans sharing their wisdom??

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The magazine no longer has a face! Who is running it? Who do we contact and how? Apparently GW is done with email now. They are done with outside playtesters, they are done with many key-personalities, they are done with many cool games….

<!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--><!--[endif]--> Jervis is the only shred of personality left in the mags these past few issues and he’s spending his effort telling us how great a hobby this is. WTF??

<!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--><!--[endif]--> How do we get them on the right track??
Who is the right guy to contact these days and how??
I guess the UK GD could be a good place to hand in our ideas?

Posted By migsula on 09/07/2006 10:45 AM

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The magazine no longer has a face! Who is running it? Who do we contact and how? Apparently GW is done with email now. They are done with outside playtesters, they are done with many key-personalities, they are done with many cool games….

<!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--><!--[endif]--> Jervis is the only shred of personality left in the mags these past few issues and he’s spending his effort telling us how great a hobby this is. WTF??

What happened to Fat Bloke anyway?  As far as I know he just disappeared.  The last I saw of him was on a parody cover of the Ogre Kingdoms Army Book.  The magazine was a lot better when he was in charge.

Now White Dwarf is almost a parody of what it once was. I still have faith in the great personalities in the studio, someone just needs to encourage the bean counters to see past their own short-sighted greed.

<!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--><!--[endif]-->Jervis is the only shred of personality left in the mags these past few issues and he’s spending his effort telling us how great a hobby this is. WTF??

The only use GW has for an identifiable personality is as a mouthpiece for their propoganda machine.  We -used- to be able to identify with Games Workshop because the faces of Games Workshop were hobbyists like ourselves.  That is no longer the case.  They continue to refuse the loyalty of their customers and seem to be embarked on a campaign to further distance themselves the hobby.  I have said it before, Games Workshop really has become the Ivory Tower Andy Chambers used to joke about.

Perhaps, and this is only conjecture, that Jervis still exists within Games Workshop is because he is willing to be the face of this new generation of rhetoric.

Though I know it is loathsome to invoke Nazi simile but perhaps Jervis has become the Goebbels to Games Workshop's Hitler.

When a poor rule is made, I can look at the first page of the Codex and put a name to the stupidity contained within.  What I want is a name.  Who's decisions are these?  Who's decision was it to get rid of the Grand Tourneys?  Who's decision was it to ignore pleas for an FAQ? (The guys over at Adeptus Windy City should send their resumes to GW.  They're already doing the job GW needs to do for free.)

What I want to see, what I think needs to finally happen for any change to occur within Games Workshop and in White Dwarf is for them to show some accountability for their actions.

The truth is, their models are no longer the best.  Their games are far from the best.  The company has lost its way.  For better or for worse (for worse) it is no longer the company we grew to love.  It is an unattentive, unattractive, aging and bitter lover for whose signature we are trying to build up the courage to ask be scrawled at the foot of lengthy divorce papers.

I guess it is no surprise this post turned into a self-indulgent rant with very little to do with the original topic.

Sorry about that.

Several months ago I sold a large chunk of my WD collection. In paging through old copies to determine which to keep and which to sell, one thing became apparent to me -- a lot of those old issues from the glory days weren't all they're cracked up to be either. Not saying the overall quality hasn't declined -- I haven't had a sub to WD in years, which tells you something -- but I think WD has kinda waxed and waned over the years. It wasn't consistently good back then, and it's not consistently awful now either. I used to work in publishing, and I can understand how hard it is to put out consistently good material on a monthly basis. It sounds easier than it is.

Moreover, you're likely to get a lot of different responses when you ask different people what they like/miss most regarding WD. So good luck to GW trying to figure out what will make us all happy. My personal opinion is that in amongst the ads, a good WD issue should include elements aimed at both vets and beginners. I think the following elements are key:

-Full battle report (for beginners and vets)
-New scenarios/rules (for vets)
-Fluff piece (for beginners and vets)
-Basic painting articles (for beginners)
-Advanced painting articles (for vets)

The kicker is that the first three require designer time, and since they seem to be working with a smaller studio staff these days, I'm guessing WD articles aren't at the top of their list. Plus LotR has been a bit of a drain. We have a lot of smart and talented people here...maybe it's time we start giving them some (good) submissions.

i agree with some of what has been said, the older issues, while not as good visiually (IMO) did have more character. I loved reading articles from the same writers and then seeing pitcures of them playing games in the battle reports.

I dont think GW is all doom and gloom and horrible ugliness, the game is still a ton of fun to me at any rate, but the magazine could use a bit of life injected into it.

I would love to see:

at least one full battle report in every issue.

fluff articles and short fiction

painting and modeling guides with creations from not only staff but the community at large

and advanced tacics articles.

but that is just me, i still end up buying most every issue from my local store with pocket money as much to bring them some cash as to keep some hobby reading around.

The one thing i can say, though, is that the models and apinting have gotten consistantly cooler over the years, by far. I love seeing the army features, that is good stuff.

How about we make a list of exactly the articles/features in WD we used to love and why (exactly why)? Then at least we'll have a concrete list of reasons why we don't care for the current magazine. It doesn't matter if we really know the reason why these things have dissapeared, let's ignore that fact and just list what we loved.

I'll start.:

1) Most of all I enjoy detailed battle reports, be they 40k, Fantasy or any other game. I enjoy the hobby because I like playing the games. Games are determined by the moves the players make. Having a battle report that doesn't contain a turn-by-turn map or account (or condenses multiple turns together) essentially turns the battle report into a battle summary. A battle summary doesn't explain to anyone how the players ultimately won or lost the game through their play. While I enjoy great pictures and stories included in the battle report, the report itself is the ultimate draw.

2) I enjoy occasional battle reports between GT champions (or tournament players in general). These reports tend to focus more on the ins-and-outs of the actual game (which I enjoy reading about), they also show off player's own armies which is always nice to see (and GT winners naturally have fantastic looking armies).

3) I enjoy new rules for game systems whethe they be official or trial. Even if I never end up using the rules, they give me exciting things to think about and discuss. They can also give me a glimpse in the way that the studio is heading, something that is very tantalizing.

4) I enjoy new missions, scenarios and campaign ideas. They give me instant ideas to run out and try with my friends. I don't like so much the general: "maybe you could run a campaign this way if you put some thought and work into it." I want those people paid to create the hobby to come up with exciting new campaign ideas for me. That's the whole point of purchasing a magazine.

5) I like designers notes. I like reading about why changes are made, what the plans are in the future, the state of the game, etc, etc, etc. The more I learn about each game designer the better. I like more personality in the magazine and in all the products.

6) I enjoy FAQs, erratas and cut-and-paste corrections to my codexes. With the internet these things can be downloaded and printed out but it was always nice to have these things in WD because it made  you feel like the company was at least attempting to correct and improve their product.

7) I enjoy quality tactics articles written by established players (like Xaptl about his Dark Eldar). The "tactics" articles that attempt to find the good qualities in every single unit in the codex don't help anyone. Veteran players know they're rubbish while new players may follow the advice, play with the bad units, lose, get frustrated and quit the hobby.

8) I enjoy original pieces of artwork and stories. They've got tons of talented artists and writers working for them (Black Library) why not feature some of them each month? More importantly, I love new information about the 40k universe. The universe itself may be my favorite part of the hobby. Any articles that shed light upon interesting parts of the backstory will always fascinate me.

9) I enjoy articles that highlight the hobby as a whole, like the "tale of two gamers" that showed purchasing, painting, and playing a new army. Features that cover independent tournaments, player's clubs/tables, and anything cool that is being done around in the "real world" to have fun with the hobby is always neat to see.


That's it for now. . .maybe more later.

i think you said it for both of us on that one, yakface. I totally agree with all of what you said.

ehm...I second that. all of it.

what I liked best about old WDs were experimental rules for new units and armies. you can start some conversions ( maybe with an article about them) and when they get official in a new 'Dex, even better!

Just a general note, if you want change a petition is usually a fairly ineffective way to do it. Especially an on-line one. It shows no commitment since all you had to do was click.

Emails are a bit better, especially if well written. Polite but firm paper letters are also good. A more theatrical display like sending a pile of WDs to the editor can be good or can back fire. Letters backed by action, ie cancelling a subscription, are really good ways to show them they need to change.

Kyoto is correct in that.


on a side, not too long ago WD had some experimental rules for an IG high commander and a thousand sons chosen of airhman which had a piece of wargear that allowed units to teleport. In my old league down in SD, we used those units all the time and they were loads of fun.

the article itself was great, with fully fleshed out rules for these units and pictures of converted models. not to mention it gave the IG a kick arse 2nd HQ choice!

at any rate, articles like that are great and add a lot to the game. even if the units aren't tourny legal, they are a good proving ground for potential new units. players can give feedback about how they feel about them and they can be playtested before they go into a new dex.

and once again with feeling: more complete battle reports!!! those are by far, the best parts of the mag.

Posted By Kid_Kyoto on 09/07/2006 3:26 PM
Just a general note, if you want change a petition is usually a fairly ineffective way to do it. Especially an on-line one. It shows no commitment since all you had to do was click.

Emails are a bit better, especially if well written. Polite but firm paper letters are also good. A more theatrical display like sending a pile of WDs to the editor can be good or can back fire. Letters backed by action, ie cancelling a subscription, are really good ways to show them they need to change.

Yes, I agree. Something novel... It needs to reach some of the upperlevel guys who still care (that should be everyone with stock in an ideal scenario)

If there was more time to GD I'd do a GD battlescene entry showing a white dwarf being rescued, and then give it to WD, hopefully with a statute to show I am serious

I particularly enjoy the designers notes. That is one of my favorite things to read. What's new, what's changed, and why. I also like the rudimentary tactics that are talked about in these articles, and how they were in the last edition and why it was changed.

Army features from other players are a big draw for me, even Fantasy ones, and I don't play Fantasy. It gets the brain buzzing when you see the theme the player is going for.

I think one thing I don't want to see are those new exploded diagrams of the miniatures. What a waste. I can get that in the box should I decide to buy it. I did like the Eldar Heavy Weapon platform one though, since it showed how to swap out weapons with pins and had different base styles and ways to make them on there.

THe turn by turn battle reports, with the birds-eye graphic diagrams, is another article I really enjoyed. The diagrams helped put everything in perspective and choices and mistakes were easier to spot and understand.

There is still good in there, I did buy it afterall. Why I'm so worried now is...

The two most recent UK WDs have shown very dire developments, it's like the last bit of personality is being sucked away, and frankly they've been subpar in content too:

-Gone is the editor's letter, the letters from hobbyists and the bit where the WD team speaks of their projects, and potrays them as fellow hobbyists.

-The hype and celebration you'd expect for 7th ed launch just isn't there.

-"THE INQUISITION" article was particularily disappointing. The basic eavymetal painted, unconverted citadel figs we've been watching for years and nothing else...despite the fact that the world of =I= has inspired some of the coolest most creative hobbyist projects ever.

-no konvershun clinic!

Sadly that can't happen. Tammy Hayes (former 'Eavy Metal painter and now ex-employee) is on record as saying that by policy articles are only allowed to be written by Studio Staff nowadays. 'Eavy Metal artists, other staff, and certainly external third parties are FORBIDDEN from writing for the Dwarf.

Insane, I know, but them's the rules. They still have the submissions guidelines, but to my knowledge no articles are accepted. I know personally two individuals who had articles accepted before the change in policy and they were dropped under the new policy. One of the articles had originally been commissioned by Fat Bloke months before, and another had received a definite "we will use this, please send some more photographs" email from Guy Haley.

I suspect they'll still snapshot gamers armies, but actual "articles" about tactics, terrain, playing the game and the like are currently not allowed from outside the studio.

I really, really hope for a change in policy, but as things stand we can write and submit till we are blue in the face, but it won't change a bit.

My suggestion is to just dump the Dwarf and look elsewhere - FIREBASE at Warseer.com for instance.

In terms of letting GW know the strength of opinion, all that matters to them is the £/$.  If you by the mag and didn't like it, they have no incentive to care as you still bought it and paid them the £/$.  Personally I let my subscription lapse when it became clear this wasn't just a blip but was a long term massive decline, and then wrote a letter explaining (Politely! After all they only made a business decision, they didn't rape my mother or anything, so I was nice about it, but still told the whole truth!) why I wasn't renewing my sub.  I got a reply, so it must have been logged somewhere.  If GW believe their financial interest lies with improving the quality of the Dwarf it will happen, and that message will only get through if people STOP BUYING A PRODUCT THEY DON'T ACTUALLY LIKE!

'Eavy Metal artists, other staff, and certainly external third parties are FORBIDDEN from writing for the Dwarf.

Unless something's changed in the last few months, that is not correct. White Dwarf would love to get good sumissions for articles, but they simply aren't receiving them anymore.

Why?

$$$$$$$$$

They used to be able to actually pay people (in product) to write articles. So you saw many great articles written by the players (who generally understand the game much better than the employees). Jeff Leong's series on basic/intermediate fantasy tactics were some of the best articles I've ever seen in white dwarf.

But now that they are forbidden to give swag to contributors......no contributors!

Honestly, the biggest thing you can do to help GW at this point is play someone else's games and buy someone else's product. They need to feel more pain before they take the steps needed to fix their situation.

Grumpy old fart is correct (wow, he has the same name my kids have for me!). These are policy changes. Its my understanding there are now only two persons working on WD now (thats a good bit of workload). This will only be changed if GW feels there is a financial motive for that - which is how it should be as they are in the business to make money. Quit re-subscribing, and send a letter why. That will help make an impression.

The catalog has, for all intents and purposes, been completely converted to a catalog advertisement. This is fine, but it is not WD and there is no reason for me to pay for their advertising brochure. At this point, send it to me free like every other piece of advertising.

No more outside articles? Something must have changed recently, since I remember Tom "Commander Y" (at Bolter and Chainsword) Schadle writing a nice article on painting and technique after he won the Slayer Sword in LA a bit ago... Not this last LAGD, but the one before...

I guess that would be more than a year ago now.

Some of my favorite articles were (bear with me here) the ones written by the British fellow who plays Fantasy, and he wrote about his gaming club and things he noticed about the game, with plenty of little asterisk'ed asides and notes. Very funny to read and made the game personal.

Semantics Mauleed. Being forbidden from accepting contributions from third parties and being forbidden from paying for articles for third parties amounts to pretty much the same thing when it comes to the Dwarf...



Yup.  GW profits bombed in 2005 and they started looking around for overheads to cut.  WD's "external writers" budget was one of those overheads...

I wouldn't call that sematics at all.

You write an (good) article, and they'll print it. Which is not what you said.

Well, I was quoting from (probably dodgy) memory Tammy Haye, who'd know more than I would. She was making the comment (can't find the quote now) explaining why the old style Masterclasses would never reappear.

I still say for most people it'd likely amount to the same thing. As someone who did get something in WD (I helped with the LotR Bat Rep in WD300), there's no way I'd go through that hassle again if I wasn't being paid. Letting them take some pics of your army and maybe getting interviewed is one thing. Writing up a properly researched and illustrated meisterwerk is something else altogther. I'd do it for free for a "not for profit" fanzine, but not for something charging its readers. Simply put, if they feel fit to charge someone for the privelege of reading my work, they can jolly well pass on the swag!

I'm also not making up the point that good articles that *had* been accepted were subsequently dropped by the "New Regime" because they were "not the kind of articles that could be published by us anymore".  I have the emails form individuals concerned to prove it.  So in theory if you, as an outsider, could write a bat-rep of the army to be released in 6 months time, or the designers' notes or the next codex, or maybe bull up the latest new release, then they'd maybe publish you.  But as outsiders have no access to the kind of thing they publish these days, I say the "ban" is de facto however they want to phrase it.  SImply put: If you write a good article, the *won't* publish it, let alone pay you for it!

Interesting insight/speculation about the reasons WD is going down hill.

If the WD team really has been cut severly, it's no wonder the quality is going down. Same with outside writers. Certainly too many enthusiastic and rich personalities have left GW recently.

I too miss the old school White Dwarf. My collection is like Yak's, though I have some gaps in the mid 90's and the past couple years since I let my sub run out. Today's WD is considerably inferior to those of a few years ago with Fat Bloke at the helm or even the day-glo primary color heydey of Robin Dews head-ache inducing stewardship.

I'll admit, some of my favorite issues are Rogue Trader era, where even then every issue you were guaranteed: Letters, Wotz happening at the studio, some sort of new rules to try out, awesome conversions of miniatures (by the likes of John Blanche (Blanchitsu! Yes!), Fraser Grey and other pioneers), equally awesome art (remember "Illuminations"?), there was usually a bat-rep, some new scenarios, and bucket loads of fluff. On top of all that the "Heavy Metal team paint jobs weren't the soulless speed-painted pieces of today, and they'd have painting guides for both neophytes and experts alongside templates to building your own vehicles from scratch, as well as kitbashed, sculpted and otherwise converted awesomeness.

Unfortunately, I haven't seen much of that in the past couple years, and none recently. Given the apparent gutting of the WD team, firing several Heavy Metal artists, and with the studio itself seemsly AWOL (working on who knows what), it's not very suprising though. This stuff all seems like a culmination of several years of terrible business decisions, which included Andy Chambers, Pete Haines, Tuomas Pirenen (sp?), Tammy Hayes and many others all leaving (or being "asked" to leave) GW. Then there is GW having said they heard our complaints but instead of make good they inexplicably changed for the worse.

I dunno. Good luck with this though. Definitely write it out and/or hand deliver it. Sending a large post package with a bunch of the new crap WD's enclosed along with a hand written note all addressed to Tom Kirby or one of his lackey's might get the message across too. I'd suggest egging Kirby's Aston Martin, but that might get one into a wee bit of trouble with the bobbies!

I'm in total agreement. I really enjoyed The Art of Warhammer (at least the articles written by Jeff Leong. Eric Sarlin, not so much.)
I have simply been voting with my cash. I have never had a subscription, and my FLGS is great about letting us browse the magazine before purchase. I have been buying WD steadily for several years, but I have passed on the last few issues (until #320) because they had little if any content that interested me. I am tired of the
1: self-congratulatory blurbs
2: confusing, heavily edited, and un-detailed battle reports
3: abyssmal quality of painting coming from the 'Eavy Metal team (What, are they worried they might scare off beginners?)
4: excessive promotion of products (I am not paying money for a magazine in order to read your adverts!)
5: the cut-and-paste nature of the last few magazines (Suddenly finding the 'US' section in the middle of the 'zine, like an afterthought to all the important ads.)


Yes, the rag is a company advert, but the blatant shilling that has been rampant these past few months has put me off. Especially when the content of most articles boils down to mindless cheerleading, "Games Workshop r0xxx00r! Woo Hoo! Buy our stuff, 'cause we're the best!"

I'm in the White Dwarf wasn't quite as good as I seemed to be. All I remember from the Rogue trader days was CHAOS SPAWN!! A full page, or two, of random model parts glued together and poorly painted.

There were obvious gems like the introduction of the Eldar (127 me thinks). Basically the first Codex.

I never cared for battle reports. They always seemed fixed. The featured army won seemingly about 80% of the time. The other 20% were always close.

I would like more features of people's armies. I'm probably a modeller first, then a player/painter. I love an original conversion with nice paint and for that reason, the GD coverage articles are always some of my favorites.

Terrain atricles are always a favorite also. Just a page or two dedicated each month on a terrain project or even just fleshing out an idea would be great.

Formatting the magazine would be nice. Every time I pick up a magazine I have a favorite section I turn to right away. With Newsweek, it's the Perspectives (Quotes), with sports illustrated, it's the college football section, with Entertainment weekly I go right to the new movie reviews, with WD I go right to the......... There isn't really anything I can count on being in there month to month with much consistancy.

If you don't like WD, just don't buy it. If you sign a petition demanding change to the current style, you're just indicating to GW that people are fanatical enough to keep buying the magazine just to see how bad it is.

Good call on the GD coverage and army features...I should have included that too.

A mini-epiphany I just had is that WD is probably at its best when it's giving us IDEAS. Those can be modeling ideas from seeing other armies, miniatures and artwork, tactical ideas from battle reports and tacticas or gaming ideas from new scenarios or optional rules.

Ever since the mag went GW-only, it's been nothing but a catalog, and that won't change. But maybe it's the lack of inspiring articles that many are reacting to. Ultimately, it's a creative hobby, and giving someone an idea might be just as effective at selling stuff than endless pages of ads.

Seems like management needs to remember that. I don't want to beat up the WD staffers...sounds like they have their work cut out for them, and there's obviously been a lot of talent leaving the studio.

I can't totally believe its $$$ that's causing problems for WD.  They haven't upped the price of the magazine and they haven't reduced its size or page count.  Maybe they are changing who is writing articles (like Dirty Steve no longer doing the letters page), but with GW's history of upping product prices, I would think that would have happened as well.

I also wonder why GW STILL hasn't allowed advertisements for products that their own staffers make reference too.  In the past year I've seen more and more staffers making reference to different products they have used or found in order to make terrain.  This is FREE advertisement, and I'm surprised GW hasn't squashed that OR offered some advertising space in their magazine. 

It would solve any money issues, make good business sense, and help gamers make better scenery.

-Jmz

I personally feel that the current WD lacks soul. Everything is faceless, and cold, and for what is ultimately a social hobby, thats a very bad thing.

If you ask me, what's needed is more guest writers. I want GW to go find some employees of their in the stores with nice armies, and have them write articles about their army, how they made it. What ideas are behind it, and what stories it has to tell. maybe have 2 such articles in the magazine, and use those for the battle report (which needs to show how the players react to events much more).

I want someone to write about how they game, the people they game with. The little stories, not necessarily exclusively about the game, that emerge. I don't want armies of soulless 'eavy metal models, i want an actual army that someone games with, that they love and cherish, yet I also want some 'eavy metal models to "oh and ah" at, and to be told how they achieved it. Not that the current 'eavy Metal standard impresses me anymore.

WD is just a paid-for 80-odd page advert for a hobby that shouldn't need such things. I want to look at the new line of models, and know “I want those” when I see them, not to be told I want them by some anonymous writer who proceeds to spent 4 pages lying about how awesome they are in combat to encourage me to buy them. Think of how many of us feel when we see Forgeworld models. Those are rarely overtly advertised, but you see them, and you know you want them. No adverts required beyond an infrequent email newsletter.

I want both experimental and not necessarily balanced but fun rules to try in friendly games, but I also want a clear, and defined, and even core rule set for when I'm in a tournament. Hence why the “Chapter Approved” tag is a good thing. It shows easily what is untested and not necessarily fair, and separates it away from the tournament rules.

But yes. GW's current vision of the hobby needs life back in it. It needs to feel less like a business, and more like the hobby that it is, with all the people, places, stories and experiences that go with it. And it's going to be no small task to fix it.

Posted By supabeast on 09/08/2006 11:38 AM
If you don't like WD, just don't buy it. If you sign a petition demanding change to the current style, you're just indicating to GW that people are fanatical enough to keep buying the magazine just to see how bad it is.

Perhaps if you read the thread you'll have seen noticed most peole posting have already stopped buying WD and already mentioned how a petition is very unlikely to work.