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Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut




Dives with Horses

So... anyone have a page number that gives info on guess weapons?

It came up in a game last night with an opponent who is NOT green at all (won 2005 Astronomicon in Toronto, GT player) who has never used a guess weapon. He thought that you just guessed the distance and if you guessed right you hit. I honestly thought he was joking when he said it and I went on to say that it just used a scatter die and used ordinance rules, but it does not say that anywhere that we could find. It is pertaining to the Airbursting Frag. Launcher for Tau, which is not an ordinance weapon but is guess so it isn't actually terribly clear that you are supposed to use a scatter die for it.

He agreed almost immediately that it made sense (I think the look of astonishment at on my face at how he thought it worked did most of the convincing)

Any help would be appreciated but please don't just say "it is obvious" etc. I could really use a page number on this one.

Drano doesn't exactly scream "toy" to me.

engine

 
   
Made in us
Lieutenant General





Florence, KY

The rules for Barrage weapons are on page 31 of the Warhammer 40,000 4th edition rulebook.

'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents
cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable
defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'

- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty
Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim
 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Utah (Oh god)

Sounds like he is using 3rd edition guess weapon rules. There you guessed, and thats where the missiles hit (also had to roll to hit if I remember right). So if you guessed 21" to the opponent bu the opponent was 25" away, then you were pooched. (Made guess weapons stupid). So instead, the version 4 rules say that you're guess weapon simply has to be in range, then when you fire it (no roll to hit required) if its within range the missisle land and you roll scatter dice.

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Tilter at Windmills






Manchester, NH

In 3rd ed you guessed, placed, and THEN you rolled for scatter in addition. Most players experienced with guess weapons could guess with a great deal of accuracy, but it did make the game take longer and punished people with less range-guessing skills.

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Made in us
Dakka Veteran




the spire of angels

just an FYI the tau air frag is a "guess weapon" which as previously noted is just place the template and roll scatter.  crisis suits are stable platforms so you might as well jump out, shoot with a 1d6 scatter and jump back behind cover  in the assault phase.

"victory needs no explanation, defeat allows none" 
   
Made in au
[MOD]
Making Stuff






Under the couch

"crisis suits are stable platforms so you might as well jump out, shoot with a 1d6 scatter and jump back behind cover in the assault phase."

Being a stable platform makes no difference to the AFP. Battle Suits only count as stationary for firing Rapid Fire weapons. The AFP is an Assault weapon.

 
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut




Dives with Horses

The rules for Barrage weapons are on page 31 of the Warhammer 40,000 4th edition rulebook.


And where does it say that a guess weapon is a barrage weapon?

Again, I will re-iterate. I KNOW that is how it is supposed to work, but it is entirely unclear in the rules, I don't think the term 'guess' is even mentioned anywhere in the rulebook.


Drano doesn't exactly scream "toy" to me.

engine

 
   
Made in us
Lieutenant General





Florence, KY

Posted By happypants on 09/10/2006 5:05 PM
The rules for Barrage weapons are on page 31 of the Warhammer 40,000 4th edition rulebook.


And where does it say that a guess weapon is a barrage weapon?

Again, I will re-iterate. I KNOW that is how it is supposed to work, but it is entirely unclear in the rules, I don't think the term 'guess' is even mentioned anywhere in the rulebook.


Uh, how about actually reading the rules that I mentioned.  Try looking at the weapon that they give as an example.

And while you're at it, go back to the 3rd edition rulebook and try reading the header for the section that covered 'Guess Weapons' in that book.  Here's a hint, it's not listed under the heading  'Guess Weapons'.  They're listed on page 58 of the Warhammer 40,000 3rd edition rulebook as BARRAGE WEAPONS

Seriously, if you're just going to ignore the help that we're giving you, why waste time posting at all.


'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents
cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable
defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'

- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty
Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Dives with Horses

Hey Ghaz, still looking for the term guess weapon or where it says that guess weapons are fired using barrage rules. This is my third reading through, maybe I am dense but every other weapon (assault, rapid fire, heavy, ordinance) has a heading that tell you how they work. There is nothing noted for guess, and nowhere does it say in the Tau Empire codex that the AFP fires as a barrage weapon.

As for third ed. rules, you might as well say "look at rogue trader" it is totally irrelevant what 3rd ed rules have to say pertaining to a rules explanation of this.

Drano doesn't exactly scream "toy" to me.

engine

 
   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User




hapypants, let me make it simple, if it has a G next to the range then use the barrage rules. The reason for YOUR confusion is because he was using 3rd ed rules as Ghaz said.
   
Made in us
Master of the Hunt





Angmar

happypants knows which rules to use for guess weapons, he simply wants an official page reference that confirms "Guess = Barrage".

I don't know if one exists. If it does not, then strictly by RAW, a weapon labeled "Guess" does absolutely nothing unless it's Codex contains specific instructions on how to handle it.

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the spire of angels

Posted By insaniak on 09/10/2006 4:08 PM
"crisis suits are stable platforms so you might as well jump out, shoot with a 1d6 scatter and jump back behind cover in the assault phase."

Being a stable platform makes no difference to the AFP. Battle Suits only count as stationary for firing Rapid Fire weapons. The AFP is an Assault weapon.

 

please note the rules on stable platforms, just like dreads and terminators they can move and shoot as if they were standing still. there for it does affect the AFP which is a barrage  weapon because you only need 1d6 instead of 2 (if you have LOS) because you always count as not moving.


"victory needs no explanation, defeat allows none" 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




Los Angeles, CA

Does that mean that defilers that move only scatter their battle cannon shots 1D instead of 2D pick the highest?

 

In the tau codec it says that the weapon suffers no penalty for moving and shooting.  That is why it can shoot with only 1D.


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Lieutenant General





Florence, KY

Posted By happypants on 09/11/2006 6:32 AM
Hey Ghaz, still looking for the term guess weapon or where it says that guess weapons are fired using barrage rules. This is my third reading through, maybe I am dense but every other weapon (assault, rapid fire, heavy, ordinance) has a heading that tell you how they work. There is nothing noted for guess, and nowhere does it say in the Tau Empire codex that the AFP fires as a barrage weapon.

As for third ed. rules, you might as well say "look at rogue trader" it is totally irrelevant what 3rd ed rules have to say pertaining to a rules explanation of this.

And once again, since you missed it the first time: 

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS GUESS WEAPONS IN THIRD OR FOURTH EDITION OF WARHAMMER 40,000

Get it through your thick skull.  The weapon category never changed.  They were Barrage weapons in 3rd edition and they're still Barrage weapons in 4th edition.


'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents
cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable
defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'

- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty
Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim
 
   
Made in us
Battlewagon Driver with Charged Engine




Murfreesboro, TN

Ordnance Barrage cannot move and fire, period.  So, the Deflier doesn't get to shoot if it moved.

As a rule of thumb, the designers do not hide "easter eggs" in the rules. If clever reading is required to unlock some sort of hidden option, then it is most likely the result of wishful thinking.

But there's no sense crying over every mistake;
You just keep on trying till you run out of cake.

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Los Angeles, CA

 

STOP THE BICKERING PEOPLE! Geez.

Happypants:

Page 28: "If the weapon has a 'G' next to its range then the weapon can be fired over obstacles by means of the gunners guessing range. These are called Barrage weapons."


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Made in au
[MOD]
Making Stuff






Under the couch

mughi3:
"please note the rules on stable platforms, just like dreads and terminators they can move and shoot as if they were standing still."

So far as I'm aware, there is no 'Stable Platforms' rule in 4th edition 40k.

There are some models (like Terminators) who can move and fire Heavy Weapons. And there are some models (Like Crisis Suits) who count as stationary for firing Rapid Fire weapons.

Neither of these abilities has anything to do with Assault Weapons.

 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran





Neither of these abilities has anything to do with Assault Weapons


Because assault weapons fire on the move anyway... or am I showing up in this thread at a very inopportune time?

Can you D.I.G. it? 
   
Made in au
[MOD]
Making Stuff






Under the couch

"Because assault weapons fire on the move anyway... or am I showing up in this thread at a very inopportune time?"

Yup, moving has no effect on the number of times Assault Weapons fire. But being an Assault Weapon will have no effect on a Barrage weapon's Scatter...

So, you have an Assault Barrage weapon mounted on a model that counts as Stationary for firing Rapid Fire weapons... which simply means that the model can move and fire, but will still roll 2D6 for scatter, since neither the Assault classification nor the Stationary ability has any effect on the rules for Barrage weapons.

 
   
Made in th
Longtime Dakkanaut




Dives with Horses

Thanks Yak, that is exactly what I was looking for!

Drano doesn't exactly scream "toy" to me.

engine

 
   
 
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