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Made in us
Dakka Veteran






A small town at the foothills of the beautiful Cascade Mountains

I was disappointed to hear about the stat for the new Pathfinders?  It seems like they didn't really gain much....

Gain:
No longer an Elite choice
No longer Alaitoc only

Lose:
5+ AP1 instead of 4+

AND they are the same price.  Does anyone see themselves using them, when for only a few more points you can have Dark Reapers, or for 5 less points you can have regular Rangers?

Thanks,

Mezmaron

***Visit Mezmaron's Lair, my blog....***
40K: Classic 'Cron Raiders Hive Fleet Kraken Alaitoc Craftworld |
FOW:
Polish 1st Armoured Polish 1st Airbourne German Kampfgruppe Knaust |
RK
: Cerci Speed Circuit, Black Diamond Corps | 
   
Made in us
[DCM]
The Tyranny of Evil Men




Los Angeles

For 5 pts, you double their cover save modifier and double their chances at AP1. That's worth it.

That being said, I don't think Rangers or Pathfinders are worth it. Too expensive for what they are. But if I had to choose one, I'd go for the pathfinders. But I still don't think either unit will be worth taking.

"The last known instance of common sense happened at a GT. A player tried to use the 'common sense' argument vs. Mauleed to justify his turbo-boosted bikes getting a saving throw vs. Psycannons. The player's resulting psychic death scream erased common sense from the minds of 40k players everywhere. " - Ozymandias 
   
Made in us
Rampaging Carnifex





What slot are rangers in now?  Kinda worthless before being in the slot of all the other cool elite crap. Are they troops or fast attack or something?

If so, taking a squad to give you some decent carnifex killin at range could help (S8 guns with long range being kind in short supply in the Eldar list).
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





They're troops. They're just an upgrade of the regular ranger squad rather than a unit in and of themselves.
   
Made in us
Clousseau





Wilmington DE

Let's all face it: rangers and pathfinders were only worthwhile in an Alaitoc list and there it wasn't because of their statline, but because of the Disruption table. Cry cheese if you want to, it was the only way to make Rangers/Pathfinders really effective compared to other options.

I would have liked to have seen, perhaps not a fully Disruption Table, some kind of disruption effect (force re-rolls on enemy's reserve rolls, add +1 to the difficulty, make them move through difficult as if through dangerous terrain--something like that).

Guinness: for those who are men of the cloth and football fans, but not necessarily in that order.

I think the lesson here is the best way to enjoy GW's games is to not use any of their rules.--Crimson Devil 
   
Made in us
Awesome Autarch






San Diego, California

as a troop choice they are good, take two minimum sized units. they infiltrate and can hold your table quarter, and they have decent shooting. then you can focus your points on the other FOC slots.

   
Made in us
Clousseau





Wilmington DE

Posted By Reecius on 09/13/2006 6:11 AM
as a troop choice they are good, take two minimum sized units. they infiltrate and can hold your table quarter, and they have decent shooting. then you can focus your points on the other FOC slots.     
Not to be too much of a cold shower, but what happens when the drop pods show up? Or the deep-striking Vet or SW squad? Or the fast-moving choppy squad?
5 guys is not enough to hold objectives or table quarters. Believe me, I've got more than 30 rangers that wish it were the other way around, but I don't see using them as anything but maybe a pushback unit.

Cityfight might be a different story, but again their shooting is just not solid enough (due to small numbers) to make them truly worthwhile.

Guinness: for those who are men of the cloth and football fans, but not necessarily in that order.

I think the lesson here is the best way to enjoy GW's games is to not use any of their rules.--Crimson Devil 
   
Made in us
Awesome Autarch






San Diego, California

I did not mean that they would be a brutally efficient killing squad, but they can hold a table quarter and keep their heads down.

one of the best lessons i ever learned in 40K was when NOT to put a squad in harms way. if a unit can not contribute effectively to a battle, keep them out of danger where they will only give up there own VP's.

If the squad has no viable targets to attack without taking more dmage in response, hide them. I know its not very glorious, but it can win games. I cant tell you how many times a unit has been most effective to me but not firing a single shot in a battle and instead focuing on taking objectives.

and if you have a hidden ranger squad holding or contesting an objective, and your opponant dedicates 200+ points to go out of the way and kill them taking multiple turns to do so, then you win, becuase he is utilizing far to much of his own forces to eliminate yours, freeing up your own squads to fight on better terms.

But, if you are utilizing them en masse, then you may not see such a strong points return. My point was only that they can be a nice way to (relatively) cheaply fill up your troops slots, thereby letting you focus the bulk of your points on more effeciant squads.

   
Made in eu
Infiltrating Broodlord





Mordheim/Germany

I will surely use a unit...due to the reasons reecius mentioned.
Maybe they aren't a killer-unit on their own, but heck, they can annoy your enemy because they just sit in their cover and keep shooting.
With their range, they don't have to move that much anyway.

Sure, not a unit to count on, so maybe not that hot for tournament-massacres, but for all the 98% of the other players a welcome and not useless addition to the army list.

Greets
Schepp himself

40k:
Fantasy: Skaven, Vampires  
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut



Chicago IL

Since they are a Troop choice now I say they are a good pick to fill in slots since Guardians are only good for bringing a platform. I say its they are more then worth their points as a Troop choice. My friend that plays Eldar ALLWAYS does good with them. For him they always made up their points at least if not a lot more. In the end it depends in what works best for you for a troops effectiveness on the battle field. My friend NEVER takes Banchies even the same goes for Shining Spears for they don't work for him. In the end to say one troop is worth more then another is silly for each person plays differently (mostly) and find different things work better or worse for them. I personally don't take Blood Claw for my Space Wolves for I never found them worth it.

The Intuitive Mind is a sacred gift, the Rational mind, a loyal servant. Our society has honored the servant and forgotten the gift.
- Albert Einstein 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




You show a remarkable lack of understanding of the current situation and the current discussion.

Your friend doesn't take banshees because they don't have an effective delivery method because of the 4th ed transport rules.
He doesn't take Shining Spears because before the new codex came out they were the absolute worst unit in the game.

If your friend took Pathfinders, then he was Alaitoc and they were good for the disruption table and the AP1 on a 4+
Now they don't have that, they only AP1 on a 5+. This makes it more difficult for them to make their points back.

However a unit may personally suit someone or not suit someone, there are units that are better than others and units that are worse. You seem to be unable to comprehend this fact, or the fact that Pathfinders have gotten strictly worse for the same price, and that Rangers in general are overpriced.
   
Made in de
Fresh-Faced New User




Pathfinders aren't a very effective Unit but they bring variety on the table and more tactical possibilities. AP1 Shots may come in handy now and then.
   
Made in eu
Infiltrating Broodlord





Mordheim/Germany

Which unit is better than the Rangers(or Pathfinders) in their certain role in an Eldar Army?

If Rangers were killy, everyone would complain that pansy Scouts can outshoot specialised shooty aspect squads. And if they don't,
everyone seems to complain that they are useless... weird world...

Greets
Schepp himself

40k:
Fantasy: Skaven, Vampires  
   
Made in us
Abhorrent Grotesque Aberration





Who needs a potent delivery system for Banshees? I either stuck them in a wave serpent and dropped them off near the target in cover, or used fleet to get them where I needed them. I use them every game I play with Eldar including the local RTT tournies.

I don't see pathfinders as a bad buy. For the price they are probably about equal to what they were. The Alaitoc army as a whole got the disruption table and was balanced within the army list itself. Is it worth 5 more points to give your scouts +1 cover save and a greater chance for AP1? Depends on if you found scouts useful or worth the cost before. Then whether or not you see them as a better troop choice than the others. You cannot directly compare them to Dark Reapers because the Reapers are not a troop choice.

And yes, he does have a bit of a point. Certain units can be more or less effectve dependant on the play style of the person using them. Just as a person can be horrible playing a certain type of army. Though I will agree that there are units out there that are really hard to be viable, shining spears being the best example.

Again,.. your mileage may vary.

I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser gate. All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. Time to die. 
   
Made in ca
Buttons Should Be Brass, Not Gold!






Soviet Kanukistan

Toreador: Have you not heard? Shining Spears are absolutely fantastic in the new codex. Pathfinders... not so much.
   
Made in us
Abhorrent Grotesque Aberration





I have heard. Was talking in the old codex, though some people, somehow still made use of them.

I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser gate. All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. Time to die. 
   
Made in us
Clousseau





Wilmington DE

I can't really discuss the pros/cons to pathfinders/rangers with the 'personal preference' argument. Objectively speaking, based on the maths, including points vs. abilities, they are less good than they were before. They are a small, infiltrating scoring unit with a better cover save. They were a small, infiltrating scoring unit with a much better cover save, better shooting and a special ability (within the confines of Alaitoc lists). They are not cheap enough to have enough of them to truly secure objectives/quarters, they are not shooty enough to get their own points back on most occassions, they are not mobile enough (with a heavy-class weapon) to get out of the way of assault units. And they have no special buffs/abilities to give extra synergy to the rest of the army (even SM scouts can take teleport homers and bring in your terminator squads with extra Assault Cannon Goodness).

You want to take Pathfinders? Take Pathfinders. I'll probably take a squad for old time's sake (and because I have 30 of them...did I mention I had 30 of them?), and will undoubtably use them as a pushback unit (unless I use Scorps for the same role). Just don't expect them to do anything except surrender victory points.

Guinness: for those who are men of the cloth and football fans, but not necessarily in that order.

I think the lesson here is the best way to enjoy GW's games is to not use any of their rules.--Crimson Devil 
   
Made in us
Awesome Autarch






San Diego, California

They are not cheap enough to have enough of them to truly secure objectives/quarters


You think so? My 50 point land speeder has won me more games than i can count by seizing/contesting objectives. It is not as resialiant as a 5 man ranger squad, lacks its fire power as well. As a matter of fact, the last game i played the little guy won it for me.

Although i suppose a min sized gaurdian jetbike squad would be more comprable to a speeder.

Still, hiding a ranger squad in/on an objective forces your opponant to deal with it, thereby commiting points to that task. The unit can be used as a tool, maybe not a super killy unit, which it never was.

   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




The difference between a LS taking an objective and a Ranger unit is that the Rangers have to sit on the objective and basically be ignored the whole game.
Even in trees, it only takes 9 wounds to bring the unit below scoring.
Against T3 that is easily done with incidental fire (read, whatever doesn't have something better to shoot at and secondary weapons on transports and such.)
Heck, causing 3 casualties with close combat can easily be done with other squads that have been damaged.

Really, a min sized Jetbike squad for taking objectives? At around 60 points, with a last turn 24" turboboost plus Inv Save, definitely doable. Especially considering the potential shooting or assault that can be done.
A min sized Pathfinder unit for 100 points that has to sit in one spot the entire game, can't move to contest quarters and can fairly easily be dislodged, not so much useful.
   
Made in ca
Fixture of Dakka




Canada

ok- good point Jet bikes are hot

"Nothing from the outside world can be imported into Canada without first being doused in ranch dressing. Canadian Techs have found that while this makes the internet delicious it tends to hamper the bandwidth potential. Scientists are working furiously to rectify the problem. "

--Glaive Company CO 
   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User




/drool .... i LOVE argueing over my eldar! :-D
  
    I see everyone's point in saying that pathfinders are now no longer as good as they were. I do have my 2 cents though, in saying that they are still one of the few units in the game who have (a chance) at AP1 and can improve their cover save by 2 while wounding on 4+ regardless of T. Also, i never ever used my 27 rangers EVER as objective capturers. They were mainly a sort of  "distraction" whilst the rest of my army moved around at its leisure. Thats about it! They're there to scare people. And scared is what those people should be because everyone always leaves room in the back of their mind for the *chance* of that 200 pt assault squad being picked off like maggots in one lucky round of shooting. :-D
    Oh yea, and if your opponent is stupid and moves that 200 pt assault squad out into the open (or is forced to because of something you did), the rangers/pathfinders definatly have a good chance of killing at least one model, and forcing a pinning check on the squad. remember that. : )
   
Made in ca
Buttons Should Be Brass, Not Gold!






Soviet Kanukistan

I'm sorry to be the guy to break this to you, but pinning is worthless.

Chance to pin:

Ld10 - 8.3% - THANK YOU SPACE MARINE MASTER.
Ld9 - 16.7%
Ld8 - 27.8%

So, while it might be effective against uh... Eldar and Dark Eldar... everyone else seems to get some sort of leadership boost or reroll.
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut



Chicago IL

Force them to take enough of them then you will get them pinned sooner or later. You can force them to make more rolls of any type you win, weather its save, or leadership. As long as their is still a chance why not? Its one of the things that is sad about todays world fewer people are willing to take that BIG chance. That make or break destion. Everything thing must show a high possiblity of return.

The Intuitive Mind is a sacred gift, the Rational mind, a loyal servant. Our society has honored the servant and forgotten the gift.
- Albert Einstein 
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut




*Current meatspace coordinates redacted*

Posted By Toreador on 09/13/2006 11:38 AM
.

I don't see pathfinders as a bad buy. For the price they are probably about equal to what they were. The Alaitoc army as a whole got the disruption table and was balanced within the army list itself.

 I'm sorry, did you just say the the Alaitoc list was balanced? Maybe by "within the army itself" you mean without comparison to any other list. Because in the really real world the Alaitoc list was broken, sick, and great - but not balanced.

And to add some content to the current discussion i will likely never take rangers or pathfinders unless I'm struck by the uncontrollable urge to paint some up. All of the Eldar builds that pique my interest are fast, and the Rangers just don't fit. never mind pathfinders for more points. 

I think that if I wanted to sit and shoot I'd likely just stick to my Marines, who are better at it anyway (yes, I am making a categorical statement without having read the new dex, but it's a safe one). If I did want to play a foot list I would certainly unpgrade one of likely two units to Pathfinders, as those little AP busting shots are more useful in a bunch of scenarios than the pinning.

Cheers


He knows that I know and you know that he actually doesn't know the rules at all. 
   
Made in us
Awesome Autarch






San Diego, California

Really, a min sized Jetbike squad for taking objectives? At around 60 points, with a last turn 24" turboboost plus Inv Save, definitely doable. Especially considering the potential shooting or assault that can be done.
A min sized Pathfinder unit for 100 points that has to sit in one spot the entire game, can't move to contest quarters and can fairly easily be dislodged, not so much useful.



very good point, the jet bikes are all around more useful, and i plan on using them for my troop choices in the eldar amry i am making. Plus, at 60 points (if that turns out to be the case) they are more durable than a speeder as well.

But then, i had always planned on a mechanized eldar force, as much as for the fact that my other armies do not have nearly as much ability to move around the battlefield as anything else. Plus, it stirkes me as a cool theme, fun, and an army that you can win with.

I sent a message to my league mate who claims to have the codex. He is a stand up guy so i dont see why he would lie, but you never know. Hopefully he gets back to me with some answers regarding the questions people have.

The dark eldar are still the kings of mobility, but i really dont care for the fluff or models.

   
Made in ca
Tail-spinning Tomb Blade Pilot






friggin math hammer
play a game!
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




Posted By deitpike on 09/14/2006 9:55 AM
friggin math hammer
play a game!


Yeah, because understanding math, probabilities and statistics prevents you from playing games?

Really, is this some kind of jock/nerd thing?  Real players think with their gut, and don't let facts get in the way of truthiness!

Some of us are capable of using reason to tune up a list to its greatest potential.  Most of us will then proceed to play with the list, and modify it according to experience, further testing and reasoning.

At no point does that prevent us from playing games.

Furthermore, you are posting in the News & Rumours section about a codex that hasn't been released.  Precisely how are we supposed to play the list without the codex?  Thinking and theory would seem to be the appropriate response.

   
 
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