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Made in ca
Regular Dakkanaut





 Monkeysloth wrote:
Feel sorry for Paizo but at the same time there was info out there about ND at that time. Hopefully the announcement is something positive for all the backers though.


I don't feel one bit of sympathy for Paizo. They've shown a bunch of bad judgement in the last year or so and basically kicked two partners (Wizkids and Reaper) with good records for putting out minis to the curb for what? What was SPM/ND ever going to do that was so much better than their Pathfinder partners were already doing. <- Note the lack of question mark.

I feel sorry for the Starfinder fans that might have been unaware of ND issues though...
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran





Paizo didn't kick reaper to the curb. Reaper turned them down. This was stated by Bryan back when he still worked for them that they passed on Starfinder.

I don't know about Wizkids but more likely they passed too because there wasn't a market large enough for plastics.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/01/09 18:48:35


 
   
Made in us
Mighty Kroxigor Ancient





California the Southern

That still seems odd.
There's plenty of use for nicely sculpted scifi figures.
Reaper really doesn't seem too keen on doing much with sf stuff though.
Is the market just that small for space stuff outside of big name wargames?

Poorly lit photos of my ever- growing collection of completely unrelated models!

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/627383.page#7436324.html
Watch and listen to me ramble about these minis before ruining them with paint!
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCmCB2mWIxhYF8Q36d2Am_2A 
   
Made in gb
[DCM]
Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

Reapers SF mini sales are always a lot lower than fantasy

but whether that's truly reflective of demand (after all I bet most of reapers sales are for D&D or pathfinder), o

are whether people who want SF stuff are less likely to think of reaper or shop in places that stock them is harder to tell

 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran





I think one of this issues would be Reaper really likes to sell things that can cross over to other games. Even Pathfinder minis are be used in lots of places. Starfinder however, really would sell mostly to Starfinder players as there's not a lot of Sci-fi/fantasy mixes with it's aesthetics.

So while Reaper would make money off the figures, metal I'd assume, they could instead put that effort into something that will yield a higher amount of sales.
   
Made in us
Incorporating Wet-Blending





Paizo also has its Starfinder pawns, further lowering demand for the miniatures. Also, of course, I don't think RPG'ers really want an iconic miniature. They want a miniature that looks like their character, not that that's always possible in fantasy, either...

Assume I wrote, "Yeah, good luck with that" at the end of my post.  
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





I suspect another issue is that sci-fi in general hasn't gone the route of a generic template the way fantasy did. So many people have created variations of Tolkien stuff that a lot of the DnD style stuff is pretty interchangeable.

Meanwhile, while sci-fi HAS serious tropes and repeated concepts, most people are attached to very specific alien races. There's always space elves, but the specifics of different space elves matter to people more than what you see in fantasy settings. It makes it harder to create demand for "generic" sci fi stuff.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Apparently that Paizo licensing meeting is today. We'll see if anything shakes out of it. It's internal so won't involve ND but rather probably address Paizo's response to ND's (in)action.



Just to clarify, this is an Paizo internal meeting and it's today.

My hope with trying to stay in the loop of what's going on and communicate with you that I am doing so, is to let you know that we are not ignoring our community. I understand the frustration from folks who feel ignored and my intention is to be able to let you know we are here listening and I am doing my best to ensure that if there is any information to pass along we can do so as soon as possible. One thing I have learned, both from the perspective of a consumer and as part of a business, is how glacial the pace of business can be for those left waiting to hear more. I know how easy it is to translate a lack of communication with feelings of being ignored or forgotten. Since I know that is not the case at Paizo, I hope I am at the very least passing that sentiment along.

I apologize for getting hopes up that I might come back with more details. Very likely, there still isn't going to be any new information to share. However, I know that earlier in the thread someone was asking for details on what we're doing and I hoped by letting you know I would be attending this meeting, I was providing a more concrete example of that this issue is not being ignored.


https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2umu4&page=7?Miniatures-Kickstarter-Ninja-Division

   
Made in ca
Regular Dakkanaut





 Monkeysloth wrote:
Paizo didn't kick reaper to the curb. Reaper turned them down. This was stated by Bryan back when he still worked for them that they passed on Starfinder.


Well that sucks...or maybe not because I'm not so much of a Reaper customer as I once was...

 Monkeysloth wrote:
I don't know about Wizkids but more likely they passed too because there wasn't a market large enough for plastics.


The company that sells unpainted Star Trek space ships? And not even the ones you want...
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran





That's a really odd comparison if you're trying to knock what I said. Star Trek is a huge license with a large fanbase. Starfinder isn't.

When companies like Paizo go out to someone for a license like game play aids sales figures are going to be shared. Assuming Paizo asked Wizkids (we don't know if they approached them at all) there was something in that data shared that had Wizkids decide they didn't want to produce the minis.
   
Made in us
Incorporating Wet-Blending





> This was stated by Bryan back when he still worked for them that they passed on Starfinder.

Darn it -- I'm suddenly recalling that Paizo wanted the figures out at a certain time and Reaper couldn't do it??

Assume I wrote, "Yeah, good luck with that" at the end of my post.  
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





If I remember correctly, Paizo approached WizKids and Reaper about it, and both declined. I think with Reaper there was mentioned that they have their own Sci Fi line/projects and that was the reason they declined on Starfinder.
   
Made in ca
Regular Dakkanaut





 akai wrote:
If I remember correctly, Paizo approached WizKids and Reaper about it, and both declined. I think with Reaper there was mentioned that they have their own Sci Fi line/projects and that was the reason they declined on Starfinder.


Funny they only remember their sci-fi line when it comes to licensing deals then forget about the rest of the time...

And to think they passed on Starfinder because they raked in all that sweet cash from Deadlands--both regular flavour and Noir. Unless Pinnacle was giving away the license I'm not sure why Reaper would have bit on all the Savage Worlds stuff.

Monkeysloth wrote:That's a really odd comparison if you're trying to knock what I said. Star Trek is a huge license with a large fanbase. Starfinder isn't.


Not at all. I think there would be more interest in good looking sci-fantasy character minis than 3 or 4 random ships from the Star Trek universe.

Anyways, we are at an impasse and this thread is about complaints against SPM/ND and not missed opportunities/dodged bullets for others.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






So it looks like Paizo's response to ND in the previously linked thread is to let them do their thing and "keep communication open". Oh well.



Over the last several months while discussing the Starfinder Masterclass Miniatures with the executive team and Glenn & Jim I’ve personally learned a lot about the processes and legal details involved with IP licenses. In particular, I’ve noted how every time I think “maybe we could simply…” or “can’t we just…” it never turns out to be simple, straightforward, or even possible. Making things even more complex, due to the business and contractual obligations involved, we’re limited in what we can communicate publicly with you about details of this ongoing issue.

I had a chance to sit in on one of the regular Paizo licensing meeting yesterday to discuss where things are at and how we can proceed. This license has clearly not progressed as we expected and we know that it has impacted and frustrated folks who backed Ninja Division’s Kickstarter. Since its launch we have been monitoring this license and at this time, after careful review, we feel that the best way we can support our community in receiving a resolution to their kickstarter pledges is to keep communication between Paizo and Ninja Division open, to support them in exploring their options for completion of the Starfinder Masterclass Miniatures Kickstarter, and to encourage them to communicate with their backers.

With PaizoCon coming up fast, much of my time at work will be tied up in all of the the event planning and execution that goes into that convention. I want to go ahead and set expectations now, that I might not be consistent with checking in every Monday with this thread. But I will aim for every other week. If it ends up longer than that, you are more than welcome to request a check in. I routinely check for new posts in this thread whenever I am looking through the forums and I should see it with a business day or so of posting.

-Sara



   
Made in us
Incorporating Wet-Blending





> I’ve personally learned

Not *the* three most dangerous words in crowdfunding, but not words I like to hear in one.

Unfortunately, when I did read them, it was usually months after funding.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/01/12 19:40:15


Assume I wrote, "Yeah, good luck with that" at the end of my post.  
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






SoCal, USA!

tl;dr - we can't say how fethed things are, because NDA/non-disparagement, but you're fethed.

   
Made in ca
Mighty Kroxigor Ancient





California the Southern

was something mentioned about Kingdom Death stepping in to help out with the Possessed Twilight Knight/ Oni Knight model that was shown off in the Relic Knights campaign?

Spoiler:


I thought I saw someone had reached out to Poots about it, but now I can't seem to find any post mentioning it.

Wishful thinking perhaps...?

Poorly lit photos of my ever- growing collection of completely unrelated models!

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/627383.page#7436324.html
Watch and listen to me ramble about these minis before ruining them with paint!
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCmCB2mWIxhYF8Q36d2Am_2A 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






SoCal, USA!

 highlord tamburlaine wrote:
was something mentioned about Kingdom Death stepping in to help out with the Possessed Twilight Knight/ Oni Knight model that was shown off in the Relic Knights campaign?

Wishful thinking perhaps...?


I think people have asked Adam for help in the RK TK, in the same way that people have asked Paizo for help on the Starfinder campaign. Unfortunately, neither Adam nor Paizo were given the funds to fulfill on behalf of SPM/ND, so they would have to do it out of the goodness of their own hearts (and depths of their own wallets). Potentially, Adam and/or Paizo could assume the obligation on SPM/ND in exchange for a transfer of the IP, but I don't believe that's on the table. It's not like Adam and Paizo may even have the capacity to produce those things correctly, even if they wanted to.

So yeah, wishful thinking.

   
Made in se
Executing Exarch






i believe you're thinking of this tweet from last week:

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/01/13 08:21:01


 
   
Made in us
[DCM]
[***]







So, not wishful thinking?

Pretty cool!

I mean, maybe that was the intent all along, but either way, getting a commitment from Adam that it is going to be finished up is nice.

Now, of course, getting them all into the hands of everyone who pledged for/is owed one...
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran





Also remember that Poots will be paying out of pocket for these as there's no way he'll get money from SPM/ND.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






SoCal, USA!

There's no money from SPM/ND to give.

I hope Adam got the rights and designs to the model in exchange for doing right by the backers on SPM/ND's behalf. It'd only be fair.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/01/14 01:27:21


   
Made in gr
Thermo-Optical Spekter





Greece

Agreed.
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka






It got $3M through Kickstarter. But this Idaho biz hasn’t delivered games it promised

https://www.idahostatesman.com/news/business/article225610455.html?fbclid=IwAR08E9kU1HkhckxtSx3ThQiVddDGS5qMbTC8T9NR7gHt8dmtvy6yMNOjCfQ

In response, Jarek Ewertowski, reported owner of Archon posted:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/miniatureboardgames/permalink/2065194406905461/

"In the spirit of the article below, as a manufacturer of miniatures for Ninja Division, I can officially state that Starfinder and Relick Knights 2 will NOT be delivered. Ninja Division owns Archon money for entire! Starfinder manufacturing (delivered and what's in the warehouse) Relics Knights (entirely manufactured and stored in our warehouse) and a few more delivered projects like Humble Bundle (entirely delivered). At this stage, we are searching for legal advice in the USA to help us out in recovering at least a fraction of costs we accommodated with manufacturing for Ninja Division. We are also, speaking with Paizo about finding some solution for backers but I would not count on it as Ninja Divisions stated to us that their bank account is dry as a desert. Anyway, an official Archon statement will be out within a few days. Sorry for the bad news."

In response, Paizo deleted all comments related to this and shut down the thread where Paizo was providing official updates:
https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2umu4&page=11?Miniatures-Kickstarter-Ninja-Division#527

In Response, John Starck Cadice confirmed they had not paid Archon, Archon was inuring additional costs due to non-payment, and did not deny any of the facts as stated by Archon. (as to the money as well as where products physically are) Also confirms that the promised bailout which has been given as private info for months does not exist.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/241607936023872/permalink/1067926943391963/

John Starck Cadice Joshua Davis no, you are right. They need to get paid to get the products out so we can move them to you - t hat is 1 issue. the other, as I stated, is something that they are resposible for in Poland, that causes more undue financial stress, and they need to act on it - we are not blaming anyone for anything - 2 separate issues -

John Starck Cadice We had essential funding pulled that prevented movement -
and forced things to be delayed, and that forced Archons need for relief - we respect and understand that - we are not monsters , they have a business to run too

John Starck Cadice Joshua Davis lets use constructive terms here -
We are an operation that is working to fulfill our obligations, and timelines and delays have costs - that's pretty much it. we are FULLY responsible for ourselves, but I jumped in this morning, because one of our suppliers decided to make statements for us, and has prompted my immediate response, because you guys deserve to knnow we are here working, and not letting things go


My Models: Ork Army: Waaagh 'Az-ard - Chibi Dungeon RPG Models! - My Workblog!
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
RULE OF COOL: When converting models, there is only one rule: "The better your model looks, the less people will complain about it."
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
MODELING FOR ADVANTAGE TEST: rigeld2: "Easy test - are you willing to play the model as a stock one? No? MFA." 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran





hey, a third thread for this. Though here's probably the most appropriate place for it.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






SoCal, USA!

 Monkeysloth wrote:
hey, a third thread for this. Though here's probably the most appropriate place for it.


To be fair, SPM/ND has impacted more than just their own stuff. They've screwed Prodos/Archon. They've screwed Paizo/Starfinder. SPM/ND is like herpes.

   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka






Screwing Prodos is justifiable herpes though.

"The Omnissiah is my Moderati" 
   
Made in us
Near Golden Daemon Caliber





Affton, MO. USA

 Nostromodamus wrote:
Screwing Prodos is justifiable herpes though.

I don’t know why but I want to put this in my Signature , I'd give you more than one exalt if I could.

LOL, Theo your mind is an amazing place, never change.-camkierhi 9/19/13
I cant believe theo is right.. damn. -comradepanda 9/26/13
None of the strange ideas we had about you involved your sexual orientation..........-Monkeytroll 12/10/13

I'd put you on ignore for that comment, if I could...Alpharius 2/11/14 
   
Made in gb
[DCM]
[***]







 Nostromodamus wrote:
Screwing Prodos is justifiable herpes though.


^--- Current leader in the clubhouse for "Winning the Internet 2019"!

Sure it is early, but that one is going to be hard to top!

Congrats!
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka







https://www.facebook.com/groups/241607936023872/permalink/1067926943391963/?comment_id=1069262766591714&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%22%7D
Jarek Ewertowski Afternoon, I am Archon's representative, AMA regarding this issue.

Jarek Ewertowski Johnnie Chau Hi there, only regular ones. An official Archon statement will be out once we agree on next steps with Paizo, we are actively looking for a solution to Starfinder KS. Paizo received a proposal from Archon and it meant to be discussed in their HQ.

Jarek Ewertowski Tom Anders Yes, also, not sure how invoicing works in the USA however in Poland once you issue an invoice, even if it was not paid by the customer you have to pay VAT, corporation and income tax from it in the next tax point (quarterly in our case). We could try to recover taxes and book all ND invoices as so-called "bad invoices" only if ND calls bankruptcy. This inventory for us is a huge investment on our part that frozen a lot of investment money. So we kinda would like to recover as much as possible. A potential solution, in lieu of Polish and USA purchasing regulations, is to secure unpaid stock, in this case, all remaining manufacturing pieces, as a compensation for unpaid invoices and then sell it as assorted miniatures to recover some of the costs Archon had. In this case, the problem is still with unserved backers - and this is where we need to find a solution. One of them would be: If you are an Archon backer (for Chronicle X - still unshipped or 2nd wave VoW) we would add the miniatures from Starfinder/Relic Knights to your box. Other solutions, well, it really will be up to Paizo.


So looks like Starfinder backers may get minis from Paizo as part of an agreement with Archon.

And It looks like RK2 and WotF models may be sold off as 'generic assorted miniatures' via various means.

Both of those result in ND still being on the hook for hundreds of thousands of dollars of resin, with the inventory literally gone.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/02/13 17:10:53


My Models: Ork Army: Waaagh 'Az-ard - Chibi Dungeon RPG Models! - My Workblog!
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
RULE OF COOL: When converting models, there is only one rule: "The better your model looks, the less people will complain about it."
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
MODELING FOR ADVANTAGE TEST: rigeld2: "Easy test - are you willing to play the model as a stock one? No? MFA." 
   
 
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