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Hey guys just letting you know you now get 4 kroot hounds in the $24 pack straight from GW on the website. Guess they were getting poor sales, wonder why...

 Crusaderobr wrote:
Hey guys just letting you know you now get 4 kroot hounds in the $24 pack straight from GW on the website. Guess they were getting poor sales, wonder why...

Still price gouging.

Ugh, I think I paid $5.99 retail for a blister of 2 back in the day :(

Finally got around to trying out triple flamer crisis suits.

Wow. I'm sure that it helped that I was playing against Tyranids, but those suits were crazy effective. Even if I never would've gotten to use them in the shooting phase (which I did at least twice before they died), they are still worth it for the charge deterrent against your commanders. Not to mention you can load 3 of them up with 6 drones to give to your commanders to munch more wounds.

Definitely a solid investment. I did not have high expectations for them, despite reading positive things on this thread. Happy to be proven incorrect!

Suks wrote:
Finally got around to trying out triple flamer crisis suits.

Wow. I'm sure that it helped that I was playing against Tyranids, but those suits were crazy effective. Even if I never would've gotten to use them in the shooting phase (which I did at least twice before they died), they are still worth it for the charge deterrent against your commanders. Not to mention you can load 3 of them up with 6 drones to give to your commanders to munch more wounds.

Definitely a solid investment. I did not have high expectations for them, despite reading positive things on this thread. Happy to be proven incorrect!

Well - they have amazing overwatch - however - a commander with 4 cib is going to do more damage on average and doesn't need to be suicidal range to do damage - he also is very effective vs practically everything. He is also about 50 points cheaper. Being a character also makes him really hard to kill when surrounded by drones.

7-Zark-7 wrote:
Ugh, I think I paid $5.99 retail for a blister of 2 back in the day :(

Thats how much they should be. Sadly due to GW's pricing I decided not to bother. Got a deal on drones on ebay so just gonna stick with them.

xmbk wrote:
I've run multiple Kroot and Hounds, Shapers are almost a must.

Has anyone run a disc Ethereal to babysit drones? Seems he could also help with forward Kroot.

I have. It is good for the moral boost but not much else. But the drones do get to sacrifice for the drone etherial if he is on his disk.

I have thought about running a foot etherial, Fire Blade and 2 squads of 5 drones in a Devil Fish.

Also Shapers are useless compared to having an etherial on a disk with Kroot.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Have a game comping up and I have thought about running a devilfish, with the 2 5-man gun drone squads, fire-blade, and an etherial inside.

The Drones and fireblade are obvious but this still lacks solid leadership for the drones and will likely lose the whole unit after a couple of failed armor saves. This is where the etherial comes in to give additional Leadership and assault value depending how close i disembark

Saviour Protocol always works on Ethereal, since he is Infantry; Disk or No Disk

Invocation of Elements never works on Drones, since they are neither Infantry nor Battlesuits.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Suks wrote:
Finally got around to trying out triple flamer crisis suits.

Wow. I'm sure that it helped that I was playing against Tyranids, but those suits were crazy effective. Even if I never would've gotten to use them in the shooting phase (which I did at least twice before they died), they are still worth it for the charge deterrent against your commanders. Not to mention you can load 3 of them up with 6 drones to give to your commanders to munch more wounds.

Definitely a solid investment. I did not have high expectations for them, despite reading positive things on this thread. Happy to be proven incorrect!

Well - they have amazing overwatch - however - a commander with 4 cib is going to do more damage on average and doesn't need to be suicidal range to do damage - he also is very effective vs practically everything. He is also about 50 points cheaper. Being a character also makes him really hard to kill when surrounded by drones.

Why does the cib do more damage against standard troops? 31.5 S4 hits beats 10 S7/-1 against pretty much any troop in the game, esp the hordes it's designed to face. Plus much better Overwatch, which is even more effective with Fly.

Not really a tactics question, but this is probably the best place to find a good concentration of Tau players.

Is anyone still using the old Battlesuits? (I'd assume many people are).
With the old battlesuits, the commander was just another XV8 with very little to differentiate him from the other suits in the army.
Does anyone still use a standard XV8 to represent their commander?
And do those people run into problems with opponents not liking that?

This seems especially pertinent to me now that commanders are the new hotness. I was just wondering what other peoples experience with this has been.

xmbk wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Suks wrote:
Finally got around to trying out triple flamer crisis suits.

Wow. I'm sure that it helped that I was playing against Tyranids, but those suits were crazy effective. Even if I never would've gotten to use them in the shooting phase (which I did at least twice before they died), they are still worth it for the charge deterrent against your commanders. Not to mention you can load 3 of them up with 6 drones to give to your commanders to munch more wounds.

Definitely a solid investment. I did not have high expectations for them, despite reading positive things on this thread. Happy to be proven incorrect!

Well - they have amazing overwatch - however - a commander with 4 cib is going to do more damage on average and doesn't need to be suicidal range to do damage - he also is very effective vs practically everything. He is also about 50 points cheaper. Being a character also makes him really hard to kill when surrounded by drones.

Why does the cib do more damage against standard troops? 31.5 S4 hits beats 10 S7/-1 against pretty much any troop in the game, esp the hordes it's designed to face. Plus much better Overwatch, which is even more effective with Fly.

Not to mention, if the squad gets shot at with a D6 damage weapon ( las, melta etc ) and there are no drones left, you clean up 1 Crisis suit instead of a commander.

xmbk wrote:
Why does the cib do more damage against standard troops? 31.5 S4 hits beats 10 S7/-1 against pretty much any troop in the game, esp the hordes it's designed to face. Plus much better Overwatch, which is even more effective with Fly.

No clue, let's find out

vs MEQ
CIB 148 / (12 * 35/36 * 2/3 * 1/2) = 38.05
ACIB 138 / (9 * 35/36 * 2/3 * 2/3) = 35.48
Flamer 69 / (3 * 3.5 * 1/2 * 1/3) = 39.42

Well damn, CIB wins vs MEQ
What about GEQ?

CIB 148 / (12 * 35/36 * 5/6 * 5/6) = 18.26
ACIB 138 / (9 * 35/36 * 5/6 * 6/6) = 18.92
Flamer 69 / (3 * 3.5 * 2/3 * 2/3) = 14.78

Better vs GEQ

So it's a Trade
CIB
Better vs MEQ
Better vs TEQ
Better vs Tanks
Basically Good at shooting everything in the game
Significantly safer shooting range
Can shoot normally from Deep Strike

Flamer
Better vs GEQ and other Light Spam
Better during Overwatch

 Talamare wrote:

xmbk wrote:
Why does the cib do more damage against standard troops? 31.5 S4 hits beats 10 S7/-1 against pretty much any troop in the game, esp the hordes it's designed to face. Plus much better Overwatch, which is even more effective with Fly.

No clue, let's find out

vs MEQ
CIB 148 / (12 * 35/36 * 2/3 * 1/2) = 38.05
ACIB 138 / (9 * 35/36 * 2/3 * 2/3) = 35.48
Flamer 69 / (3 * 3.5 * 1/2 * 1/3) = 39.42

Well damn, CIB wins vs MEQ
What about GEQ?

CIB 148 / (12 * 35/36 * 5/6 * 5/6) = 18.26
ACIB 138 / (9 * 35/36 * 5/6 * 6/6) = 18.92
Flamer 69 / (3 * 3.5 * 2/3 * 2/3) = 14.78

Better vs GEQ

So it's a Trade
CIB
Better vs MEQ
Better vs TEQ
Better vs Tanks
Basically Good at shooting everything in the game
Significantly safer shooting range
Can shoot normally from Deep Strike

Flamer
Better vs GEQ and other Light Spam
Better during Overwatch

The Commander is using a ML token at minimum, so you should factor in the minimum of 16 points to get that average result to avoid stacking the deck in favor of the Commander (which is, after all, already so heavily stacked in its favor).

Even with that taken into account, the CIB is still generally a better and more versatile tool except against GEQ or during Overwatch, I'd imagine (for gaks and giggles, how does a ML-less CIB commander compare to a TriFlamer suit when targetting flyers?).

 Unusual Suspect wrote:

The Commander is using a ML token at minimum, so you should factor in the minimum of 16 points to get that average result to avoid stacking the deck in favor of the Commander (which is, after all, already so heavily stacked in its favor).

Even with that taken into account, the CIB is still generally a better and more versatile tool except against GEQ or during Overwatch, I'd imagine (for gaks and giggles, how does a ML-less CIB commander compare to a TriFlamer suit when targetting flyers?).

Assuming T7 Flyers
Overcharge - 33% chance of Pain
CIB 148 / (8 * 2/3 * 2/3 * 1/2 * 2) = 41.62
ACIB 138 / (6 * 2/3 * 2/3 * 2/3 * 2) = 38.81

Normal
CIB 148 / (12 * 2/3 * 1/2 * 1/2 ) = 74
ACIB 138 / (9 * 2/3 * 1/2 * 2/3 ) = 69

Flamer 69 / (3 * 3.5 * 1/3 * 1/3) = 59.14

T6 Flyer
Normal
CIB 148 / (12 * 2/3 * 2/3 * 1/2 ) = 55.5
ACIB 138 / (9 * 2/3 * 2/3 * 2/3 ) = 51.75

I prefere Full burst over CIB or ACIB even on MEQ

Look :

MEQ :
Burst : 116 / (16 * 35/36 * 2/3 * 1/3) = 33,55

So I only use Burst and fusion blaster.

Under TEQ : Burst
TEQ and more : Fusion blaster.

Asura Varuna wrote:
Not really a tactics question, but this is probably the best place to find a good concentration of Tau players.

Is anyone still using the old Battlesuits? (I'd assume many people are).
With the old battlesuits, the commander was just another XV8 with very little to differentiate him from the other suits in the army.
Does anyone still use a standard XV8 to represent their commander?
And do those people run into problems with opponents not liking that?

This seems especially pertinent to me now that commanders are the new hotness. I was just wondering what other peoples experience with this has been.

I got a friend that uses old Crisis suits as they are but uses the new ones as Commanders. Anyway, you are free to use those old models if you wish, just make sure you got the right sized base for them.

Finger wrote:
I prefere Full burst over CIB or ACIB even on MEQ

Look :

MEQ :
Burst : 116 / (16 * 35/36 * 2/3 * 1/3) = 33,55

So I only use Burst and fusion blaster.

Under TEQ : Burst
TEQ and more : Fusion blaster.

This is kinda of fine as Burst Cannons are really good against GEQ, but things get complicated quick when discussing MEQ.
You're right that the Burst Cannon is marginally more efficient than a CIB.
However, it's deviation is worse. Mainly because you have insignificant chances of hitting very high number wounds that the bulk of wounds CIB causes is more likely.
Either way, against MEQ; CIB and Burst Cannons are about equivalent.
As we get softer and softer, Burst Cannons start to pull ahead. If we get tankier CIB pull ahead.
Since you can't change weapons mid battle, CIB continues it's advantage of versatility.

Altho something to remember about MEQ, is that they can very easily become TEQ by sneaking onto cover.

 Talamare wrote:

xmbk wrote:
Why does the cib do more damage against standard troops? 31.5 S4 hits beats 10 S7/-1 against pretty much any troop in the game, esp the hordes it's designed to face. Plus much better Overwatch, which is even more effective with Fly.

No clue, let's find out

vs MEQ
CIB 148 / (12 * 35/36 * 2/3 * 1/2) = 38.05
ACIB 138 / (9 * 35/36 * 2/3 * 2/3) = 35.48
Flamer 69 / (3 * 3.5 * 1/2 * 1/3) = 39.42

Well damn, CIB wins vs MEQ
What about GEQ?

CIB 148 / (12 * 35/36 * 5/6 * 5/6) = 18.26
ACIB 138 / (9 * 35/36 * 5/6 * 6/6) = 18.92
Flamer 69 / (3 * 3.5 * 2/3 * 2/3) = 14.78

Better vs GEQ

So it's a Trade
CIB
Better vs MEQ
Better vs TEQ
Better vs Tanks
Basically Good at shooting everything in the game
Significantly safer shooting range
Can shoot normally from Deep Strike

Flamer
Better vs GEQ and other Light Spam
Better during Overwatch

You aren't addressing the original post, which compared a commander to a unit of flamers. You also shouldn't be using unit cost in your calculations, as that also was addressed.

As an aside, I think you overly rely on numbers, and I say this as a mathematician. It can be fine for quantifying loadouts, but it's a mistake to ignore or generalize differences between units (wounds, range, saves, tactical role). Nothing wrong with crunching a few numbers, but it's not the bottom line you make it out to be.

What in the hell is ACIB. CIB with ATS?

Yes. Why is the Commander getting hit rerolls?

 Haechi wrote:
What in the hell is ACIB. CIB with ATS?

Cyclic Ion Blaster with Advanced Targeting System.

Check the Tau index for available weapon systems on Crisis Suits to make the abbreviations clearer.

I think you guys are missing the point on the flamer crisis suits.

I'm not arguing that they have a better damage output than commanders. Obviously commanders are top performers in the damage output section. What they do is:

1. Bring another 6 drones (for a squad of 3) for your commanders to munch.

2. Prevent T1 T2 charges against valuable commanders.

3. Clean up bubble wrap.

I'm not sure what your opponents are, but there are many times that I cannot get within 18" of high value targets. If you go 2nd, its near impossible, but even if you go first with infiltrators and scout moves it is still extremely difficult. All they have to do is get their bubble wraps 9" away from their high priority units.

So the whole point of bringing the crisis suits is to augment the commanders with a unit that cover their weakness. To clean up chaff as well as donate a lot more drones to your alpha strike commnaders for when you decide to let the crisis suits die.

 John Prins wrote:

 Haechi wrote:
What in the hell is ACIB. CIB with ATS?

Cyclic Ion Blaster with Advanced Targeting System.

Check the Tau index for available weapon systems on Crisis Suits to make the abbreviations clearer.

I know what the weapon system shortnames are. I know what ATS are. I know what CIB are. I'm asking what ACIB is, and if it means CIB with ATS.

Suks wrote:
I think you guys are missing the point on the flamer crisis suits.

I'm not arguing that they have a better damage output than commanders. Obviously commanders are top performers in the damage output section. What they do is:

1. Bring another 6 drones (for a squad of 3) for your commanders to munch.

2. Prevent T1 T2 charges against valuable commanders.

3. Clean up bubble wrap.

I'm not sure what your opponents are, but there are many times that I cannot get within 18" of high value targets. If you go 2nd, its near impossible, but even if you go first with infiltrators and scout moves it is still extremely difficult. All they have to do is get their bubble wraps 9" away from their high priority units.

So the whole point of bringing the crisis suits is to augment the commanders with their weakness. To clean up chaff as well as donate a lot more drones to your alpha strike commnaders for when you decide to let the crisis suits die.

Never said flamer suits are bad - just that you could supplement them with a CIB commander and it will work better can cheaper most of the time. Unless the enemy has 120 termagants.

I guess if you are throwing commanders around as suicide units bringing around another suicide unit with good over-watch isn't a bad idea. That's not how I play though. I surround lots of commanders with lots of drones and just blast the most threatening thing in range - if I need to reach out and hit something - that's what long-strike and hammerheads are for - and if I really need be I can just hold a fusion commander in reserve and blast a hole in a bubble wrap with insane gun-drone fire.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Finger wrote:
I prefere Full burst over CIB or ACIB even on MEQ

Look :

MEQ :
Burst : 116 / (16 * 35/36 * 2/3 * 1/3) = 33,55

So I only use Burst and fusion blaster.

Under TEQ : Burst
TEQ and more : Fusion blaster.

For s5 firepower why not just bring drones - or fire warriors - or piranhas? All superior.

Hey guys, we're having a struggle on the french forum with the Cadre Fireblade ability. Does it give you an extra shot or an extra attack? In english it's extra shot, which bring you to believe you get to shoot twice, meaning using the weapon's profile twice. But in french it's an extra attack, meaning you just add one attack to the weapon's use.

How are you guys reading into it?

It's always been one additional shot, as in, a gun drone would typically get four shots, but with the Fireblade, would get 5. I know that "shot" technically means the whole profile, but GW never pays attention to semantics within their own rules and is uniquely terrible at clarifying stuff like this. I've been playing it just one extra shell essentially.

ALSO, I would like some help refining this list against Guard for a NOVA format battle tomorrow:

Supreme Command Detachment

Fireblade-42

Commander: 3x Cyclic Ion Blaster, Advanced Targeting System, 2x Gun Drones-154
Commander: 3x Cyclic Ion Blaster, Advanced Targeting System, 2x Gun Drones-154

Outrider Detachment

Commander: 4x Burst Cannons, 2x Gun Drones-132
Commander: 4x Burst Cannons, 1x Gun Drone-124

4 Kroot Hounds- 16
4 Kroot Hounds- 16

5 Gun Drones-40
5 Gun Drones-40

Devilfish: 2x Gun Drones, Burst Cannon-127

Outrider Detachment

Commander: 3x Cyclic Ion Blaster, Advanced Targeting System, 2x Gun Drones-154
Commander: 3x Cyclic Ion Blaster, Advanced Targeting System, 2x Gun Drones-154

Y'Vahra: Advanced Targeting System, Target Lock-415
Y'Vahra: Advanced Targeting System, Target Lock-415

4 Kroot Hounds- 16

Total: 1999

The gun drones and Fireblade pile into the Devilfish and operate near the Burst Commanders to thin down his conscript hordes (I know he'll have a few, but fwiw I think this is a good TAC concept anyway).

The CIB Commanders will operate behind the Y'Vahras. I think the biggest problem with this whole thing will be me wiping out targets within 18" and thus being left with nothing to shoot at. This is such a big problem in my mind I'm considering trading an Y'Vahra for a R'Varna, who can sling pulse cannon salvos in the back unperturbed by range issues.

Thoughts?

I think that I would swap 1 commander for fusion just to be ready to pop his armor when you push a hole in the conscripts. Flamer crisis also good, but that is going to be hard to squeeze in with 2 y'vahras.

Overall, I say the list is pretty solid.

I'm not a math guy, but I thought I while back CIBs were proven to be better than fusion against virtually everything, including tanks? At least with an overcharge...I could be wrong.

A fair point, although (and again, I'm not a math guy either, so maybe this is wrong) I believe all of the math done compares damage per point spent, which is not the same as damage output per turn.

CIB may well be more point efficient, but they are not going to be as likely to take out a priority target in a single turn. This is why I think it is nice to have at least 1 fusion. When you need it dead NOW vs when you need it dead eventually.

Also, you have no marker and no multi trackers, so when you overcharge you will be taking mortal wounds. Not the biggest deal, but at some point you will start needing to munch drones at a faster rate than normal.

Just my 2 cents.

 The Shrike wrote:
I'm not a math guy, but I thought I while back CIBs were proven to be better than fusion against virtually everything, including tanks? At least with an overcharge...I could be wrong.

No. A Quad Fusion commander significantly out performs a Triple CIB w/ ATS (ACIB) against T5 and higher multi wound units. Fusion will do 5.83 wounds against T8 3+ and 7.8 wounds against T7 3+. Against T5 3+ 3 wound models, the fusion does 6.7 wounds on average. This is all outside of 9".

Conversely, the ACIB when OC will do 3.33 wounds against T8 3+ and 4.4 wounds against T7 3+. Against T5 3+ 3 wound models, the ACIB does 4.4 wounds on average.

Against 5+ Toughness multi-wound models, the fusion is significantly more point efficient option.