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I like the idea of a 6 ballistari star to abuse the +2 to hit strategem, but I have only 4 dragoon models. We are talking about a lot of kits. Kastelon robots can be bought for 20 bucks a piece if you buy them as just the bits you need from ebay. If Chapter approved leaves things as they are, I think ESBatteries and guard parking lots backed up by a stygies icarus ball could be quite viable. Something like:
CADIA
2x1 Commander (5+/5+ and relic of lost cadia)
3x10 guard troops
2x3 ESBatteries
IMPERIUM
Celestine
3x1 Astropaths
This gives you a huge amount of non-LOS shooting backed up by the exact unit that counters all the -1 to hit fliers. Relic of lost cadia gives a pretty much auto win versus chaos. Celestine is there to stay mobile and contest objectives during the game. ESBatteries flatten anythign that doesn't have -1 to be hit, the STYGIES group kills all the hard to hit stuff.
Oh yes, it is undoubtedly a very expensive army to build. I mean, how suspicious that we get large unit bonuses for these very expensive models... >_>
How often can you use the Relic of Lost Cadia? I always figured it was a one-time thing.
I think it would be a shame not to put Mortars in those Infantry squads. The big weakness of this army is that it has no way to wipe a really big horde off the map.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/11/19 04:51:10
Suzuteo wrote: Oh yes, it is undoubtedly a very expensive army to build. I mean, how suspicious that we get large unit bonuses for these very expensive models... >_>
How often can you use the Relic of Lost Cadia? I always figured it was a one-time thing.
I think it would be a shame not to put Mortars in those Infantry squads. The big weakness of this army is that it has no way to wipe a really big horde off the map.
My buddy back at my old store says it is can be multi use since it doesn't say only once. I think that is bs and will get FAQd. But the ITC judges at Game Empire let it ride. I was surprised.
EDIT: is is a 70% increase in damage for at least one turn. Versus a daemon primarch that is a massively big deal. Chaos is tops. And you can always just not spend the extra CP on the relic if you run up against a list where rerolling 1s to wound wouldn't be worth it for a turn for 1 CP. Think about how you can spend 1 CP, rerolling 1s to wound on your whole army for a shooting phase is a big deal.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/11/19 05:38:43
So is there much point to an Icarus Onager? I feel like with fliers only giving a -1 to hit the Neutron laser is still going to be superior even in that niche case. My main army is guard and I have a ton of vanguard for my admech already so I'm not really seeing a point to any Onager beside the Neutron laser.
'I've played Guard for years, and the best piece of advice is to always utilize the Guard's best special rule: "we roll more dice than you" ' - stormleader
"Sector Imperialis: 25mm and 40mm Round Bases (40+20) 26€ (Including 32 skulls for basing) " GW design philosophy in a nutshell
Suzuteo wrote: Oh yes, it is undoubtedly a very expensive army to build. I mean, how suspicious that we get large unit bonuses for these very expensive models... >_>
How often can you use the Relic of Lost Cadia? I always figured it was a one-time thing.
I think it would be a shame not to put Mortars in those Infantry squads. The big weakness of this army is that it has no way to wipe a really big horde off the map.
My buddy back at my old store says it is can be multi use since it doesn't say only once. I think that is bs and will get FAQd. But the ITC judges at Game Empire let it ride. I was surprised.
EDIT: is is a 70% increase in damage for at least one turn. Versus a daemon primarch that is a massively big deal. Chaos is tops. And you can always just not spend the extra CP on the relic if you run up against a list where rerolling 1s to wound wouldn't be worth it for a turn for 1 CP. Think about how you can spend 1 CP, rerolling 1s to wound on your whole army for a shooting phase is a big deal.
Yeah. RAI seems to be one, but RAW is clearly an unlimited number of times.
MrMoustaffa wrote: So is there much point to an Icarus Onager? I feel like with fliers only giving a -1 to hit the Neutron laser is still going to be superior even in that niche case. My main army is guard and I have a ton of vanguard for my admech already so I'm not really seeing a point to any Onager beside the Neutron laser.
I think the point has been raised many times before, but Icarus beats or matches Neutron on everything that flies and anything under T6 with 1-2 wounds. It sort of competes with Kastelans for the same role.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/11/19 07:49:35
the icarus "beats" the neutronager. it's ultra niche. you're much better off going dakkabots and neutronagers unless those very niche things it's better at feature heavily in your meta. which given alaitoc flyer spam is a definite possibility.
Icarus is nowhere close to ultra niche. As I have said time and time again, it actually performs better against more targets than Neutron. In fact, the Neutron Laser is way more specialized than the Icarus Array; we do need that specialization at times though.
I mean, Daemon Primarchs are the big bad right now. Also, Icarus is strictly better in any matchup against Altaioc Eldar, Tau Commander spam, or Elysians. Then there's any assault horde army, like Green Tide, Tyranids, or Genestealers, where your Dakkabots actually need some help killing the sheer number of enemies on the board.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/11/19 12:06:08
Formosa wrote: been reading this thread so i can get an understanding of how to beat these guys, they always seem to be my nemesis :/
So does anyone have any tips for a Dark Angels player on what to target etc.
thanks
Buddy of mine came up with a damn nasty list. took two full tac squads with plasma cannons, a dev squad with two plasma cannons and two lascannons. stuck them all up under the darkshroud with some characters and a lieutenant and apothecary. so the whole blob had a 4+ invulnerable save, -1 to hit, re rolled ALL failed hits, and rerolled failed wound rolls of 1. he played it against chaos and wiped them from the board by turn 5.
Making a list with no Cawl can be doable sure. But competitive wise its not wise.
i tried Breachers screnner for robots and elimination volley.With a dominus its superb sure. same points bla bla bs3+ .It the same reason i wont do it with ironstriders. Wont spend cp for buffing to hit. when i got Cawl for reroll everything.
Same for icarus yes it was a non brainer because we usually had an antiair role in team tours. yes becayse icarus is almost or better below 6-7 toughness bla bla. but...
all these dont matter no more.
lascannon is not better than neutron nor cheap nor durable.
Icarus is not punchy enough so it takes the antihorde role while you have robots you dont need them.
Yes dragoons can be of use but must not be yor main force since they get no synergy other than a hit cp buff.
I could accept a unit of 4 dragoons and a unit of 3-4 auocanons but the result would be what? 1 c for +2 hit? and? 7 -1 2 damage? wow
18 shots str6 -2 - Cover 2cp wrath of mars / robot
d3 shots str 10 -4 3-6 damage
Reroll everything and Cawl Is the best anti horde to protect your lines.
Forget the robots after round 3 and usually wont have much more than 1-2 cause if you have you would be winning and move Cawl onagers troops as you like. thats why i said no mortars on troops.
Troops Guard or skitarii need to move eve if to defend need to move you need to take that 6 intch extra move first turn to have room for falling back etc etc reositioning Robots bla bla.
You never want to stay stationary ll game never. if you move 2 turns and you should wasted mortar points and i talk about dkka wall fights.
Cawl also provides +1-1 for all Mars meaning you can and i am take a canticle each turn. Shroud or melee reroll or moral reroll or . decide as i always take reroll 1s when i charge dragoons even turn one and roll Mars second for shroud psalm. or eve if you wont do it still Cawl abjust +1-1 canticles.
The rerolling aura is not for air only. YOU CAN REROLL ALL SHOOTING HITS so vs lets say an -1 wide Dark angels army your ONAGERS ROBOTS ETC rcan reroll all SHOOTING NOT MISS. so you reroll those 3s that miss. ad with out any cp spend. NO cp spending for your entire dakka 1000 point dakka line.
Cant compare different things. Even if i where to pick a dominus and i use them. i would go for another dakka buff.
a unit of robots and a unit of destroyers for elimination volley and Ryza bla bla. Its good to have -1 t get hit but i need to kill things an you wont do it with balistarii.
The winning lists so far last monthboth had approx. 12+ lasc shots with bs3-4+ and some rerolls. you wont do it with 6-8 lasc shots. a simple elite army a simple razorback spamm will most likely play first and kill your 3-4 balistarii the end. Round one.
MArs list even if you loose onagers 3 x neutronager that is unlikely you still can wrath of mars for mortals. can add balistarii or earthshakers to the mix. Earthshakers bs4+ vs a -1 hit wont do nothing thats why i get only 2 ad 2 balistarii.
the point on makig soup lists is to take options not spam.
if earthshakers where op the take a list only with them??
no we take earthshakers for los shooting mainly. 80 points cheaper than balistarii. Cadian reroll ones and 2d6 choose shots. but immobile. Decisions.
how you play matters. if you want to move then take grav destroyers with Robots and wrath of mars and move with one fist robots group.Elimination volley and a group of 9 deastroyers mixed guns can kill almost everything. go earthshaker spamm. go onager spamm. i played 6 onager list with dominus pre codex. its brytal with snipers and dragoons.
Split them 3 dogmas 3 dominus snipers and 3 deployment zones and let them chase you. 140 points for 11 wounds 5+ re 1s t7 neutron is cheap.
and if to hit is your proble Cawl can definetly move with breachers with onagers superb. remove robots take kataprhons spamm oager still better results from earthshakers and balistarii. dragoons spam all over for screeners. why bother.
and take any dogma combination. any detachment anything you like to your playstyle. But i wont spam average units and say its a pan vs Cawl.
We dont take Solo Cawl.We take Robots superb point wise and volume of fire ad survivability. we take onagers for bla bla bla and dragoons cause they can rush die cheap.
Sorry but thats how it is.
hell even infiltrators with 25-50 pistol 240+ points. shots will do better with wrath of mars than balistarii +2 to hit.
The volume of fire when produce mortals cant be changed.
4+robots
10 infl
6 grav destroyers
6 autocannon balistarii
on the table with Cawl and wrath of mars will be a threat to anything on the board cause of seer number of shots. just spend cp to buff them wrath of mars nothing esle. Till the last one is dead. Better result in mathhammer but most likely wont win the games.
even priests with 3 cp spend are extremely nice. 10 x4 40 shots. split to kill a unit 3+ invu. Party inside enemy lines. for 170 points and 3 cp. better i get 2 guard battalions for cp and spamm priests.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/11/19 13:58:22
Yoda, I think you're going past what the math supports.
Dominus is worse than Cawl because he has an overpriced body and an inferior aura. However, when you have BS3+, +2 to hit, and reroll 1s, Dominus's effect is indistinguishable from Cawl's, but he is 115 points cheaper. (Against -1 to hit, you can stand still and cancel out their -1.)
Neutron is strong because it is consistent and opens up tanks without invulnerable saves like tin cans. You can have 2 Neutrons for 3 Twin Lascannons, but the real kicker is the buff. You can give +2 to hit to all 6 Ballistarii for 1 CP. That is HUGE in terms of point efficiency; easily the best stratagem in in our mediocre Codex. Furthermore, it competes indirectly with Kastelans, both in Heavy Support slots, and in points. You will run out of either pretty fast, so you probably won't get away with more than 2 Neutron on most lists; 3-4 if you cut out the screen and indirect fire, which is, in my opinion, a bad call.
Actually, my list does call for 12 lascannon shots. Only with BS2+, -1 to hit, repair, and a sizable anti-air and indirect artillery component. All of which is 48"+ range. Not to mention the Dragoons.
I think you underestimate how good -1 to hit is. If 6 Razorbacks move and shoot, they're only going to kill one Ballistarii and reduce another to 1 wound; Ballistarii has no wound table though. If they stay static and shoot, they kill two Ballistarii. But if you're deploying smart, you are going to hide them, either out of range or LOS to force the Razorbacks to move; you can move and shoot at BS2+, which is a big deal. Then you have the Dragoons coming in from the rear, forcing them to disembark their Marines or to redirect their shooting. In any case, second strike is not too bad a situation to be in against a Razorback spam list.
6x Ballistarii don't compete with the 4-6x Dakkabots. They compete with the 2-3x Neutron Crawlers. The 3x Icarus Crawlers compete with the Dakkabots. (Dakkabots do double duty because of their volume fire. They kill characters and hordes.) The list is only viable if we need less anti-horde.
You shouldn't say "sorry, that's how it is," given I was here to help make it how it is. Anyhow, nothing like this is written in stone. I have seen compelling math to suggest that there is immense value to be had with a +2 to hit stratagem applied to a 6x unit of Ballistarii. It is extremely expensive to try this out though. Proxy it at your FLGS?
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/11/19 21:37:13
Alright thanks guys. I picked up a ton of skitarii a while back for cheap so I was seeing if there was much point to an onager with the icarus array over Neutrons. I have volume of fire covered pretty easily with my guard but since I have 3 onagers I may just build the 3rd one as an icarus in case the neutrons get nerfed or I decide to run a pure admech list.
'I've played Guard for years, and the best piece of advice is to always utilize the Guard's best special rule: "we roll more dice than you" ' - stormleader
"Sector Imperialis: 25mm and 40mm Round Bases (40+20) 26€ (Including 32 skulls for basing) " GW design philosophy in a nutshell
MrMoustaffa wrote: Alright thanks guys. I picked up a ton of skitarii a while back for cheap so I was seeing if there was much point to an onager with the icarus array over Neutrons. I have volume of fire covered pretty easily with my guard but since I have 3 onagers I may just build the 3rd one as an icarus in case the neutrons get nerfed or I decide to run a pure admech list.
Just make the weapon switchable, it's what I did. I made it so I could test our the Icarus like you are wondering about.... let's just say the neutron laser has been on there basically always. The Icarus, when you have robots already, is not amazing.
ph34r's Forgeworld Phobos blog, current WIP: Iron Warriors and Skaven Tau +From Iron Cometh Strength+ +From Strength Cometh Will+ +From Will Cometh Faith+ +From Faith Cometh Honor+ +From Honor Cometh Iron+
The Polito form is dead, insect. Are you afraid? What is it you fear? The end of your trivial existence?
When the history of my glory is written, your species shall only be a footnote to my magnificence.
kastelen wrote: What is the best 2000 points Mars with a small amount of stygies army list?
The things you want to be Stygies are largely Dragoons, and then also if you want the Stygies detachment to give you command points, minimum amounts of rangers and enginseers for Battalion.
That might be 2000 points. Personally, I do not like Skitarii infantry at all, and I use exclusively Elysians and Scions instead.
ph34r's Forgeworld Phobos blog, current WIP: Iron Warriors and Skaven Tau +From Iron Cometh Strength+ +From Strength Cometh Will+ +From Will Cometh Faith+ +From Faith Cometh Honor+ +From Honor Cometh Iron+
The Polito form is dead, insect. Are you afraid? What is it you fear? The end of your trivial existence?
When the history of my glory is written, your species shall only be a footnote to my magnificence.
Suzuteo wrote: Yoda, I think you're going past what the math supports.
Dominus is worse than Cawl because he has an overpriced body and an inferior aura. However, when you have BS3+, +2 to hit, and reroll 1s, Dominus's effect is indistinguishable from Cawl's, but he is 115 points cheaper. (Against -1 to hit, you can stand still and cancel out their -1.)
Neutron is strong because it is consistent and opens up tanks without invulnerable saves like tin cans. You can have 2 Neutrons for 3 Twin Lascannons, but the real kicker is the buff. You can give +2 to hit to all 6 Ballistarii for 1 CP. That is HUGE in terms of point efficiency; easily the best stratagem in in our mediocre Codex. Furthermore, it competes indirectly with Kastelans, both in Heavy Support slots, and in points. You will run out of either pretty fast, so you probably won't get away with more than 2 Neutron on most lists; 3-4 if you cut out the screen and indirect fire, which is, in my opinion, a bad call.
Actually, my list does call for 12 lascannon shots. Only with BS2+, -1 to hit, repair, and a sizable anti-air and indirect artillery component. All of which is 48"+ range. Not to mention the Dragoons.
I think you underestimate how good -1 to hit is. If 6 Razorbacks move and shoot, they're only going to kill one Ballistarii and reduce another to 1 wound; Ballistarii has no wound table though. If they stay static and shoot, they kill two Ballistarii. But if you're deploying smart, you are going to hide them, either out of range or LOS to force the Razorbacks to move; you can move and shoot at BS2+, which is a big deal. Then you have the Dragoons coming in from the rear, forcing them to disembark their Marines or to redirect their shooting. In any case, second strike is not too bad a situation to be in against a Razorback spam list.
6x Ballistarii don't compete with the 4-6x Dakkabots. They compete with the 2-3x Neutron Crawlers. The 3x Icarus Crawlers compete with the Dakkabots. (Dakkabots do double duty because of their volume fire. They kill characters and hordes.) The list is only viable if we need less anti-horde.
You shouldn't say "sorry, that's how it is," given I was here to help make it how it is. Anyhow, nothing like this is written in stone. I have seen compelling math to suggest that there is immense value to be had with a +2 to hit stratagem applied to a 6x unit of Ballistarii. It is extremely expensive to try this out though. Proxy it at your FLGS?
i have the outmost respect on everything you say and i was the first to support your dragoon lists in all forums and tables.
Sorry goes for wha ti play. Maybe my english are not so uber for all to understand i try to help out with my experience and findings. I m not ere to tell none what t play or how to. I use various tactisa and report my experience. I use balistarii and dragoons in my lists.
I love them and i never leave home with out stygies. even In fact i changes my lists to outrider with 2x1 balistarii and 1x3-4 dragoons and snipers for that exact reason. And i have also neutronager in solo ad mech battalions when need.
Dont get me wrong i say plans i find important or i believe to workj better not what you should do/
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/11/20 10:54:25
kastelen wrote: What is the best 2000 points Mars with a small amount of stygies army list?
EDIT: Found the most recent copy of my old list:
Spoiler:
Mars Spearhead Detachment - 1070
HQ - 250 1x Belisarius Cawl
Heavy Support - 820 1x Onager Dunecrawler - Icarus Array, Cognis Heavy Stubber, Broad-Spectrum Data Tether
1x Onager Dunecrawler - Icarus Array, Cognis Heavy Stubber, Broad-Spectrum Data Tether
5x Kastelan Robots - Heavy Phosphor Blasters, Twin Heavy Phosphor Blasters
Stygies VIII Battalion Detachment - 922
HQ - 104 1x Tech-Priest Enginseer - Warlord: Necromechanic, Autocaduceus of Arkhan Land
1x Tech-Priest Enginseer
Fast Attack - 408 6x Sydonian Dragoon - Taser Lance
Heavy Support - 290 1x Onager Dunecrawler - Neutron Laser, 2x Cognis Heavy Stubber, Broad-Spectrum Data Tether
1x Onager Dunecrawler - Neutron Laser, 2x Cognis Heavy Stubber, Broad-Spectrum Data Tether
Total: 1992 points 7 Command Points
Note that the Mars detachment is actually smaller. This is because Mars specialized in handling hordes and characters with the Cawlstar, but it's the Stygies that did most of the trading with tanks and such. Neutron Crawler is in Stygies because it can use the -1 to hit and can be repaired. (That being said, you can move them both into the Mars detachment for better shooting.)
I have since moved on to using a Guard Battalion because it is much more robust. 5+/5+ CP recycling and Earthshakers are pretty OP, Mortars are great anti-GEQ, and you get 2-3 times as many bodies to screen with.
This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2017/11/20 11:20:42
Suz, that list is solid, but I would say push the Neutronagers over to Mars for the re-rolls. I would hate to miss those precious few Neutron shots because of bad rolls.
Verviedi wrote: Hahahaha, you think Chapter Approved will give us benefits? How naïve. Nerfs, maybe. But no benefits. We’ll be Waiting For Cyraxus for those.
I mean we can hope right? It’s adjusting point values maybe kataphrons will get a buff?
Verviedi wrote: Hahahaha, you think Chapter Approved will give us benefits? How naïve. Nerfs, maybe. But no benefits. We’ll be Waiting For Cyraxus for those.
I mean we can hope right? It’s adjusting point values maybe kataphrons will get a buff?
I wouldn't want the changes in Chapter Approved anyway. That's another book to buy. I would much rather print out an FAQ.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
em_en_oh_pee wrote: Suz, that list is solid, but I would say push the Neutronagers over to Mars for the re-rolls. I would hate to miss those precious few Neutron shots because of bad rolls.
Yeah, that is a choice. I would then make Cawl the Warlord, since there's no real point to the Enginseers.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/11/20 23:01:58
EDIT: mark this down, Secutarii in Chapter Approved. I don't have anything to back this up. But they said we would eventually get rules for those little guys. I choose to believe.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/11/21 02:20:36
all this time i've been trying to find suitable leg replacements for kataphrons...what i've realised now is that what i SHOULD be doing is making them into tiny miniature tanks instead
EDIT: mark this down, Secutarii in Chapter Approved. I don't have anything to back this up. But they said we would eventually get rules for those little guys. I choose to believe.
FW in Chapter Approved by GW? Nope. I can't see them doing it.
