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Made in us
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Gathering the Informations.

The upgrade sprue actually heralds a bit better news than you might think. It means that work is being done on assets, at least.

We're unfortunately hogtied with the stupid GSC though. Until they get a "Brood Brothers" unit? Cadians have to be unchanged.
   
Made in us
Hardened Veteran Guardsman





Aye, but how much work, though? Getting the upgraded sprue alongside the plastic Krieg and Tanith is a good trend, but will it continue or is this our lot until 10e? I don't think we have enough info to say one way or another, but I'm still not putting money on a decent overhaul/revamp/re-release until we get some clear indication that it'll happen.
   
Made in us
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Gathering the Informations.

The problem, bluntly, is something I've continually harped upon:

Regiments, as a concept, have never worked in the way that people like to pretend they do.

Steel Legion? That's meant to be a specific "style" of Regiment fielded by Armageddon, not the entirety of their forces. Same for Cadian Shock Troops, Death Korps of Krieg Siege Regiments, etc etc etc.

The Death Korps Veteran and Gaunt's Ghosts sets at least gives some hope that they might be pulling a big ol' reset and moving towards that.

   
Made in gb
Ship's Officer





Bristol (UK)

They'll keep the same regiments dynamic.
That's just how codexes work right now.
   
Made in us
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Gathering the Informations.

 kirotheavenger wrote:
They'll keep the same regiments dynamic.
That's just how codexes work right now.

Not really.

Skitarii and Cult have two distinctive mechanics in the same army. Who knows how the hell things are going to shake out.
   
Made in gb
Ship's Officer





Bristol (UK)

Skitarii and Cult aren't the Forgeworlds though?
Forgeworlds is the direct equivalent to regiments (although by "regiment" they really mean homeworld).
   
Made in us
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Gathering the Informations.

 kirotheavenger wrote:
Skitarii and Cult aren't the Forgeworlds though?
Forgeworlds is the direct equivalent to regiments (although by "regiment" they really mean homeworld).

And Doctrina Imperatives aren't Canticles of the Omnissiah.

You understand that when I say 'different mechanics', I'm referring to how the army actually plays right?
Right now, a Skitarii heavy army wants different things than a Cult heavy army.

As it stands in any regards, the discussion is pointless. Who knows how things will play out. They're starting to show that they are not afraid of allowing you to actually "mix and match" different playstyles.
   
Made in gb
Ship's Officer





Bristol (UK)

Right, I see.

We may see different rules for types of regiment, see infantry/armoured/whatever. I somewhat doubt it though.

We can expect a doctrine equivalent ability to discourage souping, that sort of thing may be it. Or we may get something else.
   
Made in us
Hardened Veteran Guardsman





That's all well and good (and honestly, I'd prefer picking regiments based on specialty and have homeworld be player's choice), but I was talking about the miniatures specifically. GW will almost certainly keep the regimental traits in some form, but I question whether they will bring back the old regimental minis.
   
Made in au
Dakka Veteran





I'd love to think they would, but it's been years since they axed the other regiments and IIRC most of the old characters never had models to begin with.


That’s not true.

Jarms48 wrote:
There's tons of Guard characters that had models in the past, but don't have rules anymore.

- Captain Al'Rahem (Tallarn Desert Raiders): Previously had a model.
- Captain Obadiah Schfeer (Varolian): Previously had a FW model.
- Colonel-Commissar Ibram Gaunt (Tanith First and Only): Previously had a model and also now has a new kit.
- Colonel Schaeffer (13th Penal Legion): Previously had a model.
- Colonel Stranski (Cadian): Previously had a FW model.
- Commander Chenkov (Valhallan Ice Warriors): Previously had a model.
- General Grizmund (Narmenian): Previously had a FW model.
- Marshall Karis Venner (Death Korps of Krieg): Previously had a FW model.
- Lieutenant Kage (13th Penal Legion): Previously had a model.
- Lord Solar Macharius: Previously had a model.
- Maximillian Weisemann (Mortant): Previously had a FW model.

Guard characters that had models but never had rules:

- Commissar Ciaphas Cain (Officio Perfectus): Previously had a limited BL model.
- Sergeant "Ripper "Jackson (Catachan): Limited edition model.
   
Made in us
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Gathering the Informations.

So real quick breaking some stuff down...
"Kage" was part of the Schaeffer's Last Chancers set. That's a bit of a misnomer to list him out by himself.

I cannot actually find a "Marshal Karis Venner" model. I can find a Marshal that everyone uses for Venner, so that might be the disconnect?

Ripper Jackson isn't a "character" in the normal sense. She's as much of a character as the randomly named Death Guard and the like characters were.

Cain was a display/diorama model.

A big chunk of what you posted as well were just "tank aces" in the first Imperial Armour: Guard+Navy book.

Honestly, we could use with a "Fresh Crop" of heroes for Guard. Most of the ones listed are long dead.
   
Made in us
Hardened Veteran Guardsman





To be fair, I had misremembered a number of those - either the decrepitude of middle age is catching up with me, or they were mostly/entirely out by the time I was looking for them back in late 4th/early 5th (or both). Either way, with GW being the way they are these days re: models/rules, I don't think we can expect any of the old ones back, so we'd have to pin our hopes on a new bunch.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/08 22:53:48


 
   
Made in au
Dakka Veteran




"Kage" was part of the Schaeffer's Last Chancers set. That's a bit of a misnomer to list him out by himself.


He had his own statline same as Creed and Kell. He wasn't just a Last Chancer like the rest.

I cannot actually find a "Marshal Karis Venner" model. I can find a Marshal that everyone uses for Venner, so that might be the disconnect?


Pretty sure they pulled him from the store. That's why he's been removed in compendium.

A big chunk of what you posted as well were just "tank aces" in the first Imperial Armour: Guard+Navy book.


And? They had their own unique models, backgrounds, rules and abilities. Are you going to tell me Pask isn't a unique character?

General Grizmund in particular is also from Gaunts Ghosts.

 waefre_1 wrote:
Either way, with GW being the way they are these days re: models/rules, I don't think we can expect any of the old ones back, so we'd have to pin our hopes on a new bunch.


I'd agree with this, GW being GW.

Though I'd have liked to see legends rules for them.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/08 23:22:06


 
   
Made in us
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Gathering the Informations.

The reason I said what I did with regards to Karis Venner is that I cannot find pictures of a model that aren't just the DKoK Marshal.

Also, you listed out Kage but not Kell hence my pointing out it's a bit of a misnomer calling him out as a special character.
   
Made in au
Dakka Veteran




Also, you listed out Kage but not Kell hence my pointing out it's a bit of a misnomer calling him out as a special character.


If you didn't notice, I only mentioned characters that have either had models and rules in the past but don't anymore, or characters that had models but never had rules. Characters like Creed, Kell, Pask, Strakken, Harker, Yarrick, etc I didn't mention because they can be found in our current ruleset.
   
Made in us
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Gathering the Informations.

Fair enough, but there's really no reason for a lot of them to still be in there.

Yarrick, frankly, needs to begone. Replace him with Raine if we "need" a Commissar, she's at least got a bit of an open background now.
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




So the Guard is calling me back! Its been about 2 years since I played them, but played them for about a decade before that.

This time around I plan on running a ton of scions- with very limited vehicles for the time being.

Essentially I would be running 6-10 scion squads, a few 5 man suicide squads, and a few 10 man for trying to hold objectives.

In addition I plan on running 10 ratlings, and a bullgryn squad with the mandatory priest to babysit and inspire them.

I was thinking of expanding this out to having a patrol of regular guard, maybe a spearhead, with artillery. I know manticore's are great, but how are basilisks and wyverns fairing at the moment?

And does massed scions backed by artillery sound somewhat viable?

My meta is semi-competitive, if that helps.

 
   
Made in au
Dakka Veteran




I've been playing pure Scion infantry recently. My list has been:

Spoiler:
3 battalions, only 4 CP left to play with. All Lambdan Lions.

HQ:
- 3 Tempestor Primes: 1 has the Keys to the Armour and the MT relic that gives an extra order. 1 has Master of Command and Laurels of Command. All of them have command rods.
- 3 Lord Commissars: Each has a plasma pistol.

Troops:
- 11 MT Scion Squads: 10 models each. Tempestor has a plasma pistol.
- 5 MT Scion Squads: 10 models each. 4 models with plasma guns. Tempestor has a plasma pistol.
- 2 MT Scion Squads: 5 models each. Tempestor has a plasma pistol.

Basically the 2 5 man squads are for secondaries. The 11 standard squads are for holding down objectives. Then the 5 plasma squads drop in around the Keys to the Armour Prime to get the rerolls and blast anything with plasma bolts.

It's been working pretty well. Though I do think I would do better swapping a lot of those 11 squads of standard Scions for Conscripts or Infantry Squads instead.


Though I've been tempted to go the other way as well and try Scions with a supporting Adeptus Ministorum detachment. Such as:

Spoiler:

Lambdan Lions Battalion:

HQ:
- 3 Tempestor Primes: All with command rods. 1 with Keys to the Armoury and Refractor Field Generator.

Troops:
- 4 MT Scion Squads: 10 models each. 4 models with plasma guns. Tempestor has a plasma pistol.
- 2 MT Scion Squads: 5 models each. Tempestor has a plasma pistol.

Elites:
- 3 MT Command Squads: 4 models with plasma guns.
- 2 Ministorum Priests

Subtotal: 1065 points.

Adepta Sororitas (though really an Adeptus Ministorum) Vanguard:

HQ:
- Celestine and Geminae Superia: She fulfils the requirement for Decree Passive.
- Missionary

Elites:
- 3 Crusader Squads: 5 models each. One of these doesn't take up an Elite slot.
- 3 Arco-flagellant Squads: 10 models each. One of these doesn't take up an Elite slot.
- 2 Death Cult Assassin Squads: 5 models each. One of these doesn't take up an Elite slot.

Subtotal: 925 points.

Total: 1990 points. Still need to iron this out.

General game plan is Crusaders would hold objectives. All the other units in the Adepta Sororitas detachment as well as the 2 Ministorum Priests would move up to secure mid-field. Arco-flagellants try to tank hits with their 2 wounds, 5+++, potentially a 6++ from Celestine.

This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2021/08/09 05:37:18


 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran





Heafstaag wrote:
So the Guard is calling me back! Its been about 2 years since I played them, but played them for about a decade before that.

This time around I plan on running a ton of scions- with very limited vehicles for the time being.

Essentially I would be running 6-10 scion squads, a few 5 man suicide squads, and a few 10 man for trying to hold objectives.

In addition I plan on running 10 ratlings, and a bullgryn squad with the mandatory priest to babysit and inspire them.

I was thinking of expanding this out to having a patrol of regular guard, maybe a spearhead, with artillery. I know manticore's are great, but how are basilisks and wyverns fairing at the moment?

And does massed scions backed by artillery sound somewhat viable?

My meta is semi-competitive, if that helps.


Recently won a game against Tau using a list similar to the one which got 2nd in a tournament recently. From that, I'd say a semi-competitive list needs the following:

-A large amount of objective secured bodies to hold 2-3 objectives (depending on game size) while taking fire for the entire game.

-Artillery (Manticores/Basilisks) to take out opponent's obsec bodies and damage anything that can shred our troops quickly

-Something that can punish an opponent when they make a mistake (Scions to drop on a lightly defended objective/snipe an easy to reach character, etc.)

-stuff to accomplish secondaries, which can also do the above. We will be giving away secondaries at the moment (attrition and assassination), so picking units to accomplish our own secondaries and picking the right secondaries is critical

To answer your question on Basilisks and Wyverns, I haven't seen much beyond a single Basilisk; the lack of their fire-twice stratagem hurts them in relation to Manticores.
   
Made in us
Storm Trooper with Maglight





France, region of Paris

Ah the Wyvern, once unbearably overpowered and obnoxious regarding the resolution of its shots in 7th edition, how this artillery vehicle has fallen !
It began 8th edition priced at 85+8=93 points, from the 2017 index, the codex, and first Chapter Approved.
Then 2018 & 2019 Chapter Approved raised its cost quite a bit to 103 points.
9th dropped, and Chapter Approved 2020 absolutely nerfed it to 120+15 points. Yikes +31% !
The Chapter Approved 2021 confirmed this cost of 135 points.


Rules studio seems to value its 4D6 blast + indirect fire very high.
Yet this artillery is out of favor since a long time in competitive lists.
There is no overwhelming tournament presence that supports such nerfs.
I still don't understand.

longtime Astra Militarum neckbeard  
   
Made in ca
Stormin' Stompa






 Ravajaxe wrote:
Ah the Wyvern, once unbearably overpowered and obnoxious regarding the resolution of its shots in 7th edition, how this artillery vehicle has fallen !
It began 8th edition priced at 85+8=93 points, from the 2017 index, the codex, and first Chapter Approved.
Then 2018 & 2019 Chapter Approved raised its cost quite a bit to 103 points.
9th dropped, and Chapter Approved 2020 absolutely nerfed it to 120+15 points. Yikes +31% !
The Chapter Approved 2021 confirmed this cost of 135 points.


Rules studio seems to value its 4D6 blast + indirect fire very high.
Yet this artillery is out of favor since a long time in competitive lists.
There is no overwhelming tournament presence that supports such nerfs.
I still don't understand.


It's in GW's nature to overcorrect units in price even long after they've left the competitive scene, I always feel GW has an edition delay when it comes to nerfs, which is compounded until it might swing back to normality a few editions later. It's why stuff like the Wraithknight and Scatbikes are pretty garbage right now, as are Conscripts and any other nerfed chaff unit like Grots.
   
Made in fr
Heroic Senior Officer





Western Kentucky

Like I said, I think Krieg is about to be the new posterchild regiment. Theyve got art of them fighting orks on pretty much every single one of the art portaits for the new entries, especially beast snagga stuff. The fact that theres any Krieg vs orks artwork at all is pretty cool, but to see so much in the new ork codex is very surprising. Theres even a 2 page piece in the book where a kreig army is facing an ork army thats pretty cool.

This would mean theyre getting a trait in the 9th ed codex, we can only hope they listened to complaints over the FW version and improved them a bit.

'I've played Guard for years, and the best piece of advice is to always utilize the Guard's best special rule: "we roll more dice than you" ' - stormleader

"Sector Imperialis: 25mm and 40mm Round Bases (40+20) 26€ (Including 32 skulls for basing) " GW design philosophy in a nutshell  
   
Made in au
Dakka Veteran





The Chapter Approved 2021 confirmed this cost of 135 points.


Yeah, it's pretty strange considering I can get 6 mortar teams for 100 points. If the Wyvern dropped even just 20 points it might actually be usable.

Like I said, I think Krieg is about to be the new posterchild regiment. Theyve got art of them fighting orks on pretty much every single one of the art portaits for the new entries, especially beast snagga stuff. The fact that theres any Krieg vs orks artwork at all is pretty cool, but to see so much in the new ork codex is very surprising. Theres even a 2 page piece in the book where a kreig army is facing an ork army thats pretty cool.


Yeah, I think they're going to push Krieg and Scions. There's been a ton of new Scion art and "army on display" photos shown recently.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/08/10 04:35:46


 
   
Made in us
Storm Trooper with Maglight





France, region of Paris

Jarms48 wrote:

The Chapter Approved 2021 confirmed this cost of 135 points.


Yeah, it's pretty strange considering I can get 6 mortar teams for 100 points. If the Wyvern dropped even just 20 points it might actually be usable.

Absolutely. The embarassing dowside to mortar squads, is that they use a precious heavy support slot, so we have to confront their use with Manticores, Leman Russes etc... Now that we get an incentive to take the least amount of detachements possible, mortars teams are difficult to spam. They are individually a bit weak unit, that calls for being taken in numbers (which was the case during 8th). On the other hand, you can absolutely take a trio of wyverns in a single HS slot, spread them on the table with 12" movement without suffering -1 to hit.

The current vehicle squadron rules is what makes me think the 8th AM codex structure is upside down. You can circumvent the detachment's organisation chart by taking squadrons of 2 or 3 vehicles. But for infantry, this is the opposite : each (weak) 10-man squad takes up a slot. While other armies can take up to 20 or 30 infantry in a squad. I miss platoons. I wish we get platoons back, instead of vehicle squadrons.

longtime Astra Militarum neckbeard  
   
Made in au
Dakka Veteran




I miss platoons. I wish we get platoons back, instead of vehicle squadrons.


Ideally we should get both. I don't want to see 7 different leman russ datasheets.
   
Made in us
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Gathering the Informations.

Squadrons are something that they dumped from most armies. I'm sitting on another 4 Onagers simply because I ran 2 Squadrons of 3 and a lone Icarus during the Skitarii codex days.

Platoons cannot work at this juncture. And frankly? They shouldn't come back.
   
Made in au
Dakka Veteran




Squadrons are something that they dumped from most armies. I'm sitting on another 4 Onagers simply because I ran 2 Squadrons of 3 and a lone Icarus during the Skitarii codex days.


I just doesn't seem feasible for Guard these days. As I said, there's 7 different leman russ variants. We cannot possibly have a datasheet for all of them. Between Pask, a Tank Commander, and the standard Russ. That's 21 datasheets just for each variant.

Then there's hellhounds. That's another 3 separate datasheets.

Platoons cannot work at this juncture. And frankly? They shouldn't come back.


We have to agree to disagree on this one. I understand why they removed it in 8th, but it needs to come back now.
   
Made in us
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Gathering the Informations.

Jarms48 wrote:
Squadrons are something that they dumped from most armies. I'm sitting on another 4 Onagers simply because I ran 2 Squadrons of 3 and a lone Icarus during the Skitarii codex days.


I just doesn't seem feasible for Guard these days. As I said, there's 7 different leman russ variants. We cannot possibly have a datasheet for all of them. Between Pask, a Tank Commander, and the standard Russ. That's 21 datasheets just for each variant.

Then there's hellhounds. That's another 3 separate datasheets.

If anything's happening, I'm expecting Russes to get broken into "Siege", "Ambushers", and "Support" tanks or something.

Platoons cannot work at this juncture. And frankly? They shouldn't come back.

We have to agree to disagree on this one. I understand why they removed it in 8th, but it needs to come back now.

Why?

Seriously. What does a platoon do that we cannot do now?

The problem with Guard is, bluntly, that they're sitting on an army design philosophy that is wildly outmoded and needs to be reenvisioned entirely.
   
Made in gb
Ship's Officer





Bristol (UK)

Leman Russes will probably be two separate datasheets, normal and 'seige'. This is the way they were, and it matches the boxes.
We'll likely still have commanders, perhaps remaining as they are or as an upgrade.

I do agree that platoons are necessary for Guard. They have the mechanics to do it. Guard are a horde army with small squads - that means you can't fit the numbers in detachments unless you have platoons.

Also, expect special weapons to be 1 per Guard squad.

Kanluwen, We know you want Guard to be burnt down and remodelled in your vision, but it's simply not going to happen so discussing it in this context is entirely pointless.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/11 14:05:22


 
   
Made in us
Storm Trooper with Maglight






New Hampshire

 Kanluwen wrote:


Platoons cannot work at this juncture. And frankly? They shouldn't come back.

We have to agree to disagree on this one. I understand why they removed it in 8th, but it needs to come back now.

Why?

Seriously. What does a platoon do that we cannot do now?

The problem with Guard is, bluntly, that they're sitting on an army design philosophy that is wildly outmoded and needs to be reenvisioned entirely.

***This is meant as a discussion question, not a rude retort***

May I ask what your solution would be one how to "fix" guard without platoons? Without a platoon mechanic how else could guard be functional with only 6 10-man squads unless you're paying the extra cost in other units to run a Brigade? (running scions is not an answer)

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/08/11 14:08:19


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