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 Amishprn86 wrote:
 the_scotsman wrote:
admittedly +15pts to raider, +5pts to dark lance, -5pts to disintegrator would be a quick-fix points nerf that would probably balance out pretty much all variants of competitive lists. not necessarily TOTALLY fair to the raider, but if you're going to do a knee-jerk nerf it's a better idea than trying to make a snap judgement on which exact units need point hikes and how perfectly to do that to prevent whackamole syndrome.

Removing Blade Artists and +2CP from patrols would be in my first round of nerfs, just like removing Bolter Discipline and the whole 'go ahead, take Successor Chapters without giving anything up in exchange!' would have been in my first round of nerfs for space marines. stupid, extraneous special rules that make the army less fun to play as and against, aren't really necessary, and are super difficult to track in terms of how much power they are adding to the army, BEFORE you go and kneecap random units points or abilities.

But GW gonna GW and they love leaving the seven-layer dip of nonsensical special rules while making the core units' stats worse and worse and worse.

My round one nerf list would be:

-remove +2cp
-remove Blade Artists
-rework compedge to not interact with razorflails (just change to 'attack rolls' from 'attacks)
-remove or basically remove dark tech (make only +1 to wound, make MWs trigger off wound rolls of 1, and make it no longer All-Consuming would be my nerf)

Watch competitive lists for another month, if Drukhari are still above 55% after, add in Raider point nerf (+20pts to DL raider +10pts to Dissie raider) to shave ~100pts off of competitive builds.


WTF why remove Blade Artists? Its on the datasheets and its extremely minor, thats basically rewriting all the datasheets and a stupid knee jerk with no taught at all. Why should Marines get -1AP in shooting and melee for full turns on full weapons when we get it 1/6 the time only in melee, how silly.

PS, old DE still took 3 patrols and gain +D3 CP from the Haemonculus, so that has not change, its funny how everyone hate it now when its been like that for a very long time.


Because if you're looking to reduce the power of an army overall I would always rather start with blanket, army-wide rules that provide ambiguous power to various units than by whackamoling units, particularly if that rule was just added and is not established as a signature rule that is important to the faction's fluff. I would add a special rule to Bloodbrides giving them -3AP on natural wound rolls of 6. That's also why I'd be inclined to change army-wide abilities like DT before touching the units that interact with it - especially if every list is picking that one specific rule.

Like I said: back when marines were problematic, Bolter Drill would be the first rule I would consider removing. If Orks were overperforming using their melee units I'd consider altering 'ere we Go before altering Boyz or whatever.

I consider 'we need this rule because Other Army Gets Other Rule' to be an identical statement to Karol's wonderful spite-based worldview of 'other armies were nerfed in this stupid way so your army should be nerfed the same way.'

"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
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Annandale, VA

Agreed with the_scotsman. If certain units overperform then you nerf those units; if the whole army overperforms then look for things the whole army shares. Admittedly I'm not a DE player, but Blade Artists seems very secondary as an army-wide rule compared to Power From Pain, and less tied to their identity given that it just appeared.

I mean, they could just do a points cost pass and hike them all up 10%, but thanks to granularity and relative cost (base model vs wargear) issues, that's more difficult and more likely to have unintended consequences.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/06 14:03:29


 
   
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Spoletta wrote:
 harlokin wrote:
Blade Artists is going nowhere, GW currently has a hard-on for such army wide rules.

I've seen many calls for it's removal, and they seem to hinge not on it's amazing effectiveness (cos it ain't powerful) but that it doesn't tickle some people's g-spot as 'thematic'


The typical argument used against blade artist is that it does too little for too much time wasted.


And it is, i ignore it for the most part unless it might be important, i hate these types of rules honestly.


Daedalus81 wrote:63 to 70

He had WWSWF on 2 GMDKs and a 10 man that he kept move and shoot or safe with astral.

He blocked me from midboard scramblers and scored his with dynamic insertion. Made good use of gate to pressure.

If not for my screw ups I should have won with 90 points, but he was also restrained with two large squads so hard to say how it might have changed.

I should note lots of warding staves and 3++ saves and -1 to wound.






Thats pretty close and sounds like a good match, this is bringing back 5th memories (nightmares) with my DE when GK's got their new book lol.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/06 14:24:19


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 Daedalus81 wrote:
63 to 70

He had WWSWF on 2 GMDKs and a 10 man that he kept move and shoot or safe with astral.

He blocked me from midboard scramblers and scored his with dynamic insertion. Made good use of gate to pressure.

If not for my screw ups I should have won with 90 points, but he was also restrained with two large squads so hard to say how it might have changed.

I should note lots of warding staves and 3++ saves and -1 to wound.



OK thanks, I didn't think of warding staves. I don't understant how kept the grand masters from dying though. For me they fold to dark lances and mass liquifier hits. Anyway it is good to read accounts of how an army can resist to Druk dominance (even if helped by a screw up).

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 addnid wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
63 to 70

He had WWSWF on 2 GMDKs and a 10 man that he kept move and shoot or safe with astral.

He blocked me from midboard scramblers and scored his with dynamic insertion. Made good use of gate to pressure.

If not for my screw ups I should have won with 90 points, but he was also restrained with two large squads so hard to say how it might have changed.

I should note lots of warding staves and 3++ saves and -1 to wound.



OK thanks, I didn't think of warding staves. I don't understant how kept the grand masters from dying though. For me they fold to dark lances and mass liquifier hits. Anyway it is good to read accounts of how an army can resist to Druk dominance (even if helped by a screw up).


You don't necessarily need to passive-aggressively indicate that a person playing against a strong army and winning only did so because the person playing the stronger army must have fethed up. I promise it will not have any impact on whether or not daddy GW nerfs the strong army or how hard.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Amishprn86 wrote:


Spoletta wrote:
 harlokin wrote:
Blade Artists is going nowhere, GW currently has a hard-on for such army wide rules.

I've seen many calls for it's removal, and they seem to hinge not on it's amazing effectiveness (cos it ain't powerful) but that it doesn't tickle some people's g-spot as 'thematic'


The typical argument used against blade artist is that it does too little for too much time wasted.



And that's why itd be one of the first things on the chopping block for me. Competitive de lists appear to be principally melee-focused, they are overperforming, and no drukhari player appears to particularly care about the rule. So cut it and see what happens before going after units that appear to be overperforming.

I also view the +2CP as something akin to the whole Successor Chapter issue - a bonus that no other army gets for no adequately explored reason and that every power-gamer is taking advantage of for obvious reasons. When certain chapters are strongest, they get instantly swapped out for whatever the best combination of two successor chapter traits is, for obvious reasons - literally every army in the game would adopt this practice if you could take custom traits and retain all the core faction bonus relics/bonus strats/bonus traits etc. Maybe its not contributing much to the overall dominance of the army. Maybe it is. I'd remove it before I start hitting individual units, were you to crown me "GW balance god."

If you wanted me to balance harlequins, step numero uno would be removing the 1cp strat that lets you double-dip on Pivotal Roles - all that does is increase the power of the army without it being any kind of core part of the harlequins' lore.

If you wanted me to balance sisters, the whole 'rites' bonus rule thing would be first to go. To whom is "+1 to advance and charge rolls army-wide" core to sisters' identity?

The only time I'd start by hitting individual units is if people were clearly and obviously spamming one particular unit to the exclusion of all others - which is why id put a raider nerf high up on my list of priorities. People seem to be taking a lot of them. Not the top of my list of priorities, but high up there. Start with the wonky stuff, cut that out, and then raiders would be second pass.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/06 14:54:49


"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
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Tyel wrote:
Blade Artists feels like a rule which would have been cool circa 3rd edition to indicate that DE were the choppy/spiky Eldar faction - but I sort of feel fluffwise that ship has sailed and mechanically having to fish out the 6s to wound is kind of annoying.

Moreover it offers no tactical value. If you were hitting someone to potentially get those 6s to wound, you were always going to hit them anyway. I mean you could argue this is true of Combat Doctrines - but the super doctrine does sort of encourage build variation by chapter. Necrons may end up often following a script - but you can deviate if you want to.


As a GSC player I find the complaints at blade artist fething hilarious. Like 90% of the GSC book (even non neo GEQ) is flat -1 ap and on a 6 to wound bounces all the way to -4 and nobody seems to care. But apparently the jump from -1 to -2 is suddenly a bridge to far?

EDIT: BTW not meaning to call you out specifically Tyel, you are just the most recent to touch on the general subject.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/06 15:10:04


   
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Well, if you check stats you will see that Renegade Knights have over 58% WR this year(were not affected at all of DG DA) and IK have over 48% WR, even through knights are considered garbage and less common less people are bringing anti-tank. Probably their plan is to outplay knights on points and having extra S5-S6 weapons to kill marines is better and bringing alot of expensive S8 weapons is not optimal because of transhuman.
   
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I'm completely against removing army rules if that army overperforms, especially in the case of the DE dex which is really really really well done.

The codex for the most part is well balanced internally AND externally. It is really just a few interactions and maybe one undercosted model which are causing the W/L ratio skyrocketing. We all know which are the suspects, so I don't see why firing with a shotgun at the target when you can snipe it.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/06 15:17:10


 
   
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 catbarf wrote:
Agreed with the_scotsman. If certain units overperform then you nerf those units; if the whole army overperforms then look for things the whole army shares. Admittedly I'm not a DE player, but Blade Artists seems very secondary as an army-wide rule compared to Power From Pain, and less tied to their identity given that it just appeared.

I mean, they could just do a points cost pass and hike them all up 10%, but thanks to granularity and relative cost (base model vs wargear) issues, that's more difficult and more likely to have unintended consequences.


The main issues with 8th and now 9th are chapter tactics and their equivalent. I said this way back in the early days of the index and I stand by it now. You cannot possibly implement accurate points to a faction whos special rules are so different and have zero cost.

People are actually starting to look past the impact too. Take the dark lance for example, it was literal garbage 2 months ago and all they did were change two things.

1 was a nerf moving it from assault to heavy on vehicles.

The other was giving it flat min damage.

Now suddenly it's busted?

Heres a hint fellas, it's not, what is busted is a free trait that lets you reroll a single hit roll per unit. That's fething massive especially when the idiots at GW were supposed to be applying core in order to remove rerolling (usually only 1's BTW) from the game on transports and they managed to give totally free chapter master rerolls on every unit with a single shot anywhere on the table.

I would personally LOVE if easily accounted for rules like blade artist were added to every faction, but cult creeds, regimental doctrines etc etc were all completely removed. It would make the game so much cleaner and more easily balanced. But hey fellas, I am sure someone out their is going to try to convince me that Army wide obsec and a free pregame move is totally in line with and equal in value to +1 leadership and turn rapid fire 1 weapons into assault 1 when advancing lmao.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/06 15:21:22


   
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I don't think I disagree with a single thing here:

https://www.goonhammer.com/competitive-innovations-editorial-what-gw-should-do-about-drukhari/

   
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Drazhar and Archons have no business being on that list. Drazhar's inclusion is specifically to punish players bringing Court of the Archon for While We Stand We Fight. Nerfing one unit because another unit does something sneaky is the height of stupidity.

Likewise, neither Trueborn, nor their gatekeeping Archons are issues.
   
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So... I've read this thread front and back.

Seems like the "OP-ness" isn't really "x" unit at "y" price point imo.

It seems like Drukhari simply has a plethora of tools that are really geared towards maximizing the mission objectives.

I'm not convinced that nerfing problematic units by simply raising the cost would change all that much. All that'll do is maybe make the army a little more one-dimensional.

Correct me if I wrong,please, but this army is a nuclear meta buster. At least from my point of view, most armies in 9th were very elite oriented.

The way to counter Drukhari, is either the weight of the dice in small arms or horde armies.

My old 8th edition Ork list with spammed mek gunz and several large blobs of orks and gretchin units. (yes, against DT liquifier list can nuke this list but you can still win if your screening game is good).




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Points determine everything really.

Take your tournament winning DE list.
Pick up a raider and a squad of Incubi and walk off. Then play the game.

You can say "well it will play about the same and all those units are still as good" - but the loss of those units will be noticeable, and the win rate will go down accordingly.
   
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Tyel wrote:
Points determine everything really.

Take your tournament winning DE list.
Pick up a raider and a squad of Incubi and walk off. Then play the game.

You can say "well it will play about the same and all those units are still as good" - but the loss of those units will be noticeable, and the win rate will go down accordingly.

You still have the General's knowledge.

You still have the General's opponent's knowledge.

I doubt just dropping a raider and a squad of Incubi is going to affect the outcome in recent tournament winners as much.

FWIW though, the suggestion in that latest Goonhammer to fix Druhari I really don't have a problem with. I'm just not that convinced that it's going to change all that much. (to be fair, I really like his DT's suggestion to fix the liquifier).

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/06 15:46:42


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 Red Corsair wrote:
 catbarf wrote:
Agreed with the_scotsman. If certain units overperform then you nerf those units; if the whole army overperforms then look for things the whole army shares. Admittedly I'm not a DE player, but Blade Artists seems very secondary as an army-wide rule compared to Power From Pain, and less tied to their identity given that it just appeared.

I mean, they could just do a points cost pass and hike them all up 10%, but thanks to granularity and relative cost (base model vs wargear) issues, that's more difficult and more likely to have unintended consequences.


The main issues with 8th and now 9th are chapter tactics and their equivalent. I said this way back in the early days of the index and I stand by it now. You cannot possibly implement accurate points to a faction whos special rules are so different and have zero cost.

People are actually starting to look past the impact too. Take the dark lance for example, it was literal garbage 2 months ago and all they did were change two things.

1 was a nerf moving it from assault to heavy on vehicles.

The other was giving it flat min damage.

Now suddenly it's busted?

Heres a hint fellas, it's not, what is busted is a free trait that lets you reroll a single hit roll per unit. That's fething massive especially when the idiots at GW were supposed to be applying core in order to remove rerolling (usually only 1's BTW) from the game on transports and they managed to give totally free chapter master rerolls on every unit with a single shot anywhere on the table.

I would personally LOVE if easily accounted for rules like blade artist were added to every faction, but cult creeds, regimental doctrines etc etc were all completely removed. It would make the game so much cleaner and more easily balanced. But hey fellas, I am sure someone out their is going to try to convince me that Army wide obsec and a free pregame move is totally in line with and equal in value to +1 leadership and turn rapid fire 1 weapons into assault 1 when advancing lmao.


I would argue that increasing the average damage from 3.5 to 5 is a more significant change than making the hit roll go from .66 to .87.

"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
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Sterling191 wrote:
Drazhar and Archons have no business being on that list. Drazhar's inclusion is specifically to punish players bringing Court of the Archon for While We Stand We Fight. Nerfing one unit because another unit does something sneaky is the height of stupidity.

Likewise, neither Trueborn, nor their gatekeeping Archons are issues.


Yea that guys tempered approach is good.

That said some of his arguments are terrible.

Raiders should go up 10-15 for sure but him starting off by suggesting their prevalence as the evidence is garbage. DE have always been a transport heavy faction. I've been playing them since 98 and even back then it was not uncommon to see 4-5 raiders. The only thing that changed that over the years was the venoms introduction, at which point you saw 6+ venoms.

I also have no idea why he sees the Master Archon as a problem lol. Again, just because it was popular at the top tables? I mean, you see fowl blight spawn or chief apothecaries in most lists too. That's competitive 40k for you.

I also don't really agree with his fix for Dark Tech, because it doesn't actually do anything meaningful. Your still guaranteed 3 rounds of fire (with at least 5 liquifiers) even if you failed every shrug. Just remove the +1 damage and allow it to combine with another trait.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 the_scotsman wrote:
 Red Corsair wrote:
 catbarf wrote:
Agreed with the_scotsman. If certain units overperform then you nerf those units; if the whole army overperforms then look for things the whole army shares. Admittedly I'm not a DE player, but Blade Artists seems very secondary as an army-wide rule compared to Power From Pain, and less tied to their identity given that it just appeared.

I mean, they could just do a points cost pass and hike them all up 10%, but thanks to granularity and relative cost (base model vs wargear) issues, that's more difficult and more likely to have unintended consequences.


The main issues with 8th and now 9th are chapter tactics and their equivalent. I said this way back in the early days of the index and I stand by it now. You cannot possibly implement accurate points to a faction whos special rules are so different and have zero cost.

People are actually starting to look past the impact too. Take the dark lance for example, it was literal garbage 2 months ago and all they did were change two things.

1 was a nerf moving it from assault to heavy on vehicles.

The other was giving it flat min damage.

Now suddenly it's busted?

Heres a hint fellas, it's not, what is busted is a free trait that lets you reroll a single hit roll per unit. That's fething massive especially when the idiots at GW were supposed to be applying core in order to remove rerolling (usually only 1's BTW) from the game on transports and they managed to give totally free chapter master rerolls on every unit with a single shot anywhere on the table.

I would personally LOVE if easily accounted for rules like blade artist were added to every faction, but cult creeds, regimental doctrines etc etc were all completely removed. It would make the game so much cleaner and more easily balanced. But hey fellas, I am sure someone out their is going to try to convince me that Army wide obsec and a free pregame move is totally in line with and equal in value to +1 leadership and turn rapid fire 1 weapons into assault 1 when advancing lmao.


I would argue that increasing the average damage from 3.5 to 5 is a more significant change than making the hit roll go from .66 to .87.


Ah but thats not the point is it?

The point is that one applies to every DE build that uses Dlances. that 20% increase in accuracy combines with the damage buff and only applies to black heart. Thats the problem.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/06 15:55:57


   
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Does it?

I honestly don't know, I didnt track whether every single competitive de list used Black Heart, I thought several went for PT instead.

"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
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 the_scotsman wrote:
Does it?

I honestly don't know, I didnt track whether every single competitive de list used Black Heart, I thought several went for PT instead.


Of the top 10 finishers at Dallas, one went for PT, mostly for the redeploy (it was the Goonhammer guy IIRC). One went Obsidian Rose. The rest went for Black Heart.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/05/06 16:00:58


 
   
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The DT change isn't enough. DT should just only give the +1 to wound when used with auto-hitting weapons, that makes it still strong but not ridiculous any more.

The Drazhar change is quite clever, and has little impact on the actual points value of an army, but a significant impact on the army's ability to take safe WWSWF, so I think it's a great idea.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/06 16:14:05


 
   
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Sterling191 wrote:
Drazhar and Archons have no business being on that list. Drazhar's inclusion is specifically to punish players bringing Court of the Archon for While We Stand We Fight. Nerfing one unit because another unit does something sneaky is the height of stupidity.

Likewise, neither Trueborn, nor their gatekeeping Archons are issues.


They propose the increases, because they dont want to hit the core infantry units, most of the people want to use.
The way they propose DT nerf is the only think i don`t really like, i`m not convinced paying 20 points for 2 ligifiers to kill single MEQ is worth it.
DT design was problematic since the release, it was just the best way to play shooting drukhari, who lacked reliable D2 and D3 weapons and keep the army afloat at the end of the edition.
I think DT should just not work with flamers and if people stop taking them, GW could always make them cheaper. The only issue is i`m not convince people will continue to play coven, since Talos and Grotesque are just bad.
Grotesque with this defensive stats 40 pts and bladeguard 35 pts? Hello GW ??? Helloo ?
Talos for 110 pts losing his defense and with the increase of damage, will probably stay garbage the edition, it just don`t have the wounds or the damage to be competitive.
   
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yukishiro1 wrote:
The DT change isn't enough. DT should just only give the +1 to wound when used with auto-hitting weapons, that makes it still strong but not ridiculous any more.

I'd still take it. But, I wouldn't make it all-consuming then.

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 the_scotsman wrote:
 Red Corsair wrote:
 catbarf wrote:
Agreed with the_scotsman. If certain units overperform then you nerf those units; if the whole army overperforms then look for things the whole army shares. Admittedly I'm not a DE player, but Blade Artists seems very secondary as an army-wide rule compared to Power From Pain, and less tied to their identity given that it just appeared.

I mean, they could just do a points cost pass and hike them all up 10%, but thanks to granularity and relative cost (base model vs wargear) issues, that's more difficult and more likely to have unintended consequences.


The main issues with 8th and now 9th are chapter tactics and their equivalent. I said this way back in the early days of the index and I stand by it now. You cannot possibly implement accurate points to a faction whos special rules are so different and have zero cost.

People are actually starting to look past the impact too. Take the dark lance for example, it was literal garbage 2 months ago and all they did were change two things.

1 was a nerf moving it from assault to heavy on vehicles.

The other was giving it flat min damage.

Now suddenly it's busted?

Heres a hint fellas, it's not, what is busted is a free trait that lets you reroll a single hit roll per unit. That's fething massive especially when the idiots at GW were supposed to be applying core in order to remove rerolling (usually only 1's BTW) from the game on transports and they managed to give totally free chapter master rerolls on every unit with a single shot anywhere on the table.

I would personally LOVE if easily accounted for rules like blade artist were added to every faction, but cult creeds, regimental doctrines etc etc were all completely removed. It would make the game so much cleaner and more easily balanced. But hey fellas, I am sure someone out their is going to try to convince me that Army wide obsec and a free pregame move is totally in line with and equal in value to +1 leadership and turn rapid fire 1 weapons into assault 1 when advancing lmao.


I would argue that increasing the average damage from 3.5 to 5 is a more significant change than making the hit roll go from .66 to .87.

Well you are getting both. Black heart getting a free reroll be squad is huge. Obsidian getting a free reroll to wound per unit is also huge. It also works from inside the transort! Yet at the same time removed flayed skulls reroll 1s from inside the transport? WTF?

Im tellin yah - the stuff that is crushing tournaments is busted. Succubus relics and WL traits are silly. Drazar is just flat OP. Raiders costing to little is actually more of an issue for kabal focus armies which are being avoided because melee is better this eddition due to objective game. If it was about pure attrition in combat. Obsidian and DH raider boats spam is utterly insane.

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 whembly wrote:
yukishiro1 wrote:
The DT change isn't enough. DT should just only give the +1 to wound when used with auto-hitting weapons, that makes it still strong but not ridiculous any more.

I'd still take it. But, I wouldn't make it all-consuming then.


It'd stay all-consuming, and stay +1W and +1D for weapons that don't auto hit. It'd still be powerful enough to be all-consuming IMO. You could just nerf the whole thing to +1 to W and make it not all consuming I guess, if that seemed like a better solution.
   
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 whembly wrote:
yukishiro1 wrote:
The DT change isn't enough. DT should just only give the +1 to wound when used with auto-hitting weapons, that makes it still strong but not ridiculous any more.

I'd still take it. But, I wouldn't make it all-consuming then.

When you nerf something - you shouldn't also buff it at the same time. LOL.

If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
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 Red Corsair wrote:
 catbarf wrote:
Agreed with the_scotsman. If certain units overperform then you nerf those units; if the whole army overperforms then look for things the whole army shares. Admittedly I'm not a DE player, but Blade Artists seems very secondary as an army-wide rule compared to Power From Pain, and less tied to their identity given that it just appeared.

I mean, they could just do a points cost pass and hike them all up 10%, but thanks to granularity and relative cost (base model vs wargear) issues, that's more difficult and more likely to have unintended consequences.


The main issues with 8th and now 9th are chapter tactics and their equivalent. I said this way back in the early days of the index and I stand by it now. You cannot possibly implement accurate points to a faction whos special rules are so different and have zero cost.

People are actually starting to look past the impact too. Take the dark lance for example, it was literal garbage 2 months ago and all they did were change two things.

1 was a nerf moving it from assault to heavy on vehicles.

The other was giving it flat min damage.

Now suddenly it's busted?

Heres a hint fellas, it's not, what is busted is a free trait that lets you reroll a single hit roll per unit. That's fething massive especially when the idiots at GW were supposed to be applying core in order to remove rerolling (usually only 1's BTW) from the game on transports and they managed to give totally free chapter master rerolls on every unit with a single shot anywhere on the table.

I would personally LOVE if easily accounted for rules like blade artist were added to every faction, but cult creeds, regimental doctrines etc etc were all completely removed. It would make the game so much cleaner and more easily balanced. But hey fellas, I am sure someone out their is going to try to convince me that Army wide obsec and a free pregame move is totally in line with and equal in value to +1 leadership and turn rapid fire 1 weapons into assault 1 when advancing lmao.
You don't think changing the damage of a weapon from d6 to 3+d3 could make it OP?

You think 50% more average damage with half the standard deviation is nothing?
   
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 Xenomancers wrote:
 whembly wrote:
yukishiro1 wrote:
The DT change isn't enough. DT should just only give the +1 to wound when used with auto-hitting weapons, that makes it still strong but not ridiculous any more.

I'd still take it. But, I wouldn't make it all-consuming then.

When you nerf something - you shouldn't also buff it at the same time. LOL.


Heh... but honestly the other non-all consuming custom obsession isn't all that.

Well...scratch that, there's one if I remember that ignores covers. Nevermind, that'd be stupid lol.

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 Ordana wrote:
 Red Corsair wrote:
 catbarf wrote:
Agreed with the_scotsman. If certain units overperform then you nerf those units; if the whole army overperforms then look for things the whole army shares. Admittedly I'm not a DE player, but Blade Artists seems very secondary as an army-wide rule compared to Power From Pain, and less tied to their identity given that it just appeared.

I mean, they could just do a points cost pass and hike them all up 10%, but thanks to granularity and relative cost (base model vs wargear) issues, that's more difficult and more likely to have unintended consequences.


The main issues with 8th and now 9th are chapter tactics and their equivalent. I said this way back in the early days of the index and I stand by it now. You cannot possibly implement accurate points to a faction whos special rules are so different and have zero cost.

People are actually starting to look past the impact too. Take the dark lance for example, it was literal garbage 2 months ago and all they did were change two things.

1 was a nerf moving it from assault to heavy on vehicles.

The other was giving it flat min damage.

Now suddenly it's busted?

Heres a hint fellas, it's not, what is busted is a free trait that lets you reroll a single hit roll per unit. That's fething massive especially when the idiots at GW were supposed to be applying core in order to remove rerolling (usually only 1's BTW) from the game on transports and they managed to give totally free chapter master rerolls on every unit with a single shot anywhere on the table.

I would personally LOVE if easily accounted for rules like blade artist were added to every faction, but cult creeds, regimental doctrines etc etc were all completely removed. It would make the game so much cleaner and more easily balanced. But hey fellas, I am sure someone out their is going to try to convince me that Army wide obsec and a free pregame move is totally in line with and equal in value to +1 leadership and turn rapid fire 1 weapons into assault 1 when advancing lmao.
You don't think changing the damage of a weapon from d6 to 3+d3 could make it OP?

You think 50% more average damage with half the standard deviation is nothing?

Average is one way to look at it. Minimum is a really a lot more relevant though. Min 4 is VERY powerful. 1 shotting attack bikes...gravis...custodian teramintors...and 3 wounds autokilling 10/12 wound units is the key.

If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
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 Ordana wrote:
You don't think changing the damage of a weapon from d6 to 3+d3 could make it OP?

You think 50% more average damage with half the standard deviation is nothing?
It's definitely significant, I just wouldn't call it OP when Attack Bikes and Land Speeders with Multimeltas are a thing, or when Razorbacks mount TL Lascannons.

Tbh, I'd prefer Lascannons go to D3+3 damage.

I also wouldn't be surprised if Bright Lances got the same buff, in which case we're looking at Wave Serpents with two of those bad boys.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/06 16:41:20


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Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
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I definitely would not call it OP. Especially when it was considered worthless prior and the only change was the boost to min damage, plus a nerf from assault to heavy.

What takes it over the edge is when you start applying free re-rolls to hit from black heart or to wound from obsidian rose.

Re-rolls have been a plague on the game forever. Instead of cutting them out and removing them except on extremely rare units they continue to hand them out like candy. It's a cheap and easy way to generate excitement for a faction.

I'll reiterate that the hardest things to balance are auras and chapter traits. It's just impossible to price the way they have it set up.

I'd love to see Auras replaced by targeted abilities (like the chapter masters ability) them reign in the rerolls in the game making them rare and removing chapter traits and instead just giving factions benefits from taking certain detachments.

There is no way anyone can convince me that an obliterator from black legion and one from Iron Warriors should ever be the same price lol.

Or a dark lance from a Black heart raider as opposed to a flayed skull raider.

For some reason folks chose to look past that and act like applying point increases and even decreases will ever work when there are intangibles like that.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/06 16:53:32


   
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I don't think boats are the problem, but I think a 10 point bump on them is sound.

It reduces the room by just a little bit while also not touching the actual units inside.

That way there is still a potential to see some of those units on foot instead of making them entirely useless.

   
 
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