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so im tinkering with my first nephilim stuff. sticking with EC. two routes:

trajan
bike cap

3x3 saggitarum

2x venerable dread
1 galatus
1 achillus

2x3 salvo bikes

Or

bike cap
foot cap with +3" aura

5x3 spear guard with one shield in each

2x venerable dread
2x galatus
2x achillus

Any comments?




Automatically Appended Next Post:
one more thing; how does the praetorian plate work now? Does that last phrase -

"The bearer cannot perform a Heroic Intervention int he same turn in which is performs a teleport-shunt" mean, you can't fight the turn you do it?

or was that always there and simply means, you can't shunt into one combat and then heroically again if another opportunity should come up later in that charge phase? Sorry for the silly question but I dont remember the text being worded like that. Was it nerfed back with the big hit we took in spring? I dont see it in lists anymore either.

Its there to prevent the Unstoppable destroyer combo from giving you an additional 8" move after teleporting into an ongoing combat.

Basically they are classifying the teleport to be the heroic intervention, thus clarifying you cannot make a second heroic intervention.

 Eihnlazer wrote:
Its there to prevent the Unstoppable destroyer combo from giving you an additional 8" move after teleporting into an ongoing combat.

Basically they are classifying the teleport to be the heroic intervention, thus clarifying you cannot make a second heroic intervention.

yeah, thats what I figured. So its still decent, I guess.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So I have these three ideas now:

All are EC.

knight centura
Plate cap

4x3 guards with a shield in each

2x galatus
2x venerable dread
2x Achillus

telemon

---------------------------------

trajan
bike cap

3x3 saggitarum

2x venerable dread
1 galatus
1 achillus

2x3 salvo bikes

-------------------------------

bike cap
foot cap with +3" aura

5x3 spear guard with one shield in each

2x venerable dread
2x galatus
2x achillus

I'd love some feedback.

I'll be the first to say this, and I'm likely wrong: Trajann is no longer worth the points he costs, unless you are going with a 100% infantry list.

Also, Our LR is now our best AT platform, for the cost, unless you go 5x bikes with missiles. Which at that point the cost is too extreme in my opinion. If they decide to drop it to 245 (Which I don't think they will) it's our best Transport. A group of these will out perform a points equivalent numbers of bikes, according to mathhammer. Also, with Covered advance, they are extremely hard to shift. If I still played them, I would start taking these instead of Venerable Dreads.

well the bikes are way faster though. And if they get a charge, have effectively S8 attacks.
Looking at bikes exclusively for their shooting is ignoring their major threat in melee.
Butt hey still dont seem worth it, imo now. Which is sad.

Who needs fast when you have 12" movement, and 48 inch guns? Plus I'll take S9 and 1 S10 over S8 until it's in melee and then it's S6, all day long.

S6, hitting on what, 5+?
You're gonna take more objectives with 5 bikes than 1 LR, I'm pretty sure of that statement

I'm not exactly sure what you are referring to. The Bikes do S6 Melee on 2+, the LR does S8 melee on 6+. So it has the edge. But the LR can shoot in melee. So it's melee profile is effectively 4x S9AP3 D6, and 6x S5 ap1 D2, and a further 4x S4 AP0 d1. So thats 14 attacks at WS2+, then it does 6x S8 AP0 D1 attacks. 1 of which will maybe hit. But if the shooting phase hasn't killed what it's in melee with, then oh well. Same cost for 1 LR as 3 bikes, the bikes are FAR harder to shift though, I'll give you that. But they still die way too fast.

Also, I was entirely wrong. I thought the LR had 12" movement, it only has 10". My bad.

I was merely stating as a dedicated AT platform, the LR takes it far better than bikes do.

The bikes have S+2 -3 2 attacks and get +1 to wound if they charged, so for all intents and purposes, they have 12 S8 -3 2 attacks in melee plus 3 S8 -4 D3+3 attacks in ranged.

I've never seen attribute shooting attacks as "melee" on vehicles. Melee are additional attacks you can do compared to shooting, TWICE, whereas shooting is just a once per turn thing.

Considering your avg. T8 2+/5++ target

Bikes cause
3,38 in shooting
7,41 dmg in melee
for a total of 10,79 to said target

On the opponents turn, bikes cause
4,44 melee dmg
and again in their own turn, since the LR gets two turns, they have to as well, putting them at 19,67 dmg dealt.

Land raider causes
6,31 dmg shooting
0,08 dmg in melee
for a total of 6,39 dmg to said target.

He then fights in the opponents turn, adding
0,08 dmg again.

So if the LR gets to shoot at -1 in melee, because that rule is still there, it deals
5,03 dmg in shooting
0,08 dmg in melee
for a total of 11.58 dmg.

The bikes are clearly superior. They lose a bit in the protracted combat as they lose their +1 to wound.

That was my point originally - yes, the LR is better at shooting. But you cant just ignore the melee on the bikes because you pay quite a few points for that. Bikes deal more damage if you take ALL their damage into account.
Then you have greater mobility in movement, FLY and way easier time pushing feth off an objective you want. The LR is "good" sitting at the back, shooting at things - but thats not what a LR is for. Which is why its not being used in.. ages.

I'm sorry, I can't understand what you are saying. Are you saying S7 is now equal to S8? Are you just assuming they charge and get the +1 to wound? Because I was assuming they GET charged.

Point is, I should have said Ranged AT in Codex. Because, let's be honest, if you are sending a trio of bikes up to a Knight Equivalent Target, you're in for a BAAAAD time. Also, given that most major tanks are going T9 now it seems, we have to start taking a better look at our ONLY unit in the game with T9+ shooting. Unless we go out of codex, in which case it's the Ares. Which, call me crazy, but I don't want to spend 500 points on a flying knight, with a sign that says "SHOOT ME, I'M KEY TO THE PLAN!" I'd rather go Dual Telemons.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I'm sorry, I can't understand what you are saying. Are you saying S7 is now equal to S8? Are you just assuming they charge and get the +1 to wound? Because I was assuming they GET charged.

Point is, I should have said Ranged AT in Codex. Because, let's be honest, if you are sending a trio of bikes up to a Knight Equivalent Target, you're in for a BAAAAD time. Also, given that most major tanks are going T9 now it seems, we have to start taking a better look at our ONLY unit in the game with T9+ shooting. Unless we go out of codex, in which case it's the Ares. Which, call me crazy, but I don't want to spend 500 points on a flying knight, with a sign that says "SHOOT ME, I'M KEY TO THE PLAN!" I'd rather go Dual Telemons.

A M14” unit with Fly can get the charge pretty easily.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I'm sorry, I can't understand what you are saying. Are you saying S7 is now equal to S8? Are you just assuming they charge and get the +1 to wound? Because I was assuming they GET charged.

Point is, I should have said Ranged AT in Codex. Because, let's be honest, if you are sending a trio of bikes up to a Knight Equivalent Target, you're in for a BAAAAD time. Also, given that most major tanks are going T9 now it seems, we have to start taking a better look at our ONLY unit in the game with T9+ shooting. Unless we go out of codex, in which case it's the Ares. Which, call me crazy, but I don't want to spend 500 points on a flying knight, with a sign that says "SHOOT ME, I'M KEY TO THE PLAN!" I'd rather go Dual Telemons.

I dont get whats not to understand here? Just.. do the math. Bikes outdamage a land raider, regardless the situation, because they deal damage in 2 phases whereas the land raider is a wet fart in one.
I'm not saying that S7 is equal to S8. I'm saying that S7 with +1 to wound is equal to S8. Quite an important difference.
If you manage to get your 14" move models charged, I have bad news for you But if we get the bikes charged so they do not get the +1 to wound, which is imo an unfair comparison, they deal 4,44 instead of 7.41 wounds in that phase. Which means they deal 16,7W over the course of two turns. STILL outdamaging the LR. Not counting that they can fall back and charge, which would, in a more realistic scenario, put their damage to 22,84.
Even in the worst possible circumstance, when a unit of bikes get charged, doesnt fall back and shoot/charge, is stuck in combat for 2 turns they outdamage a land raider in the same situation.

Like I really dont understand your argument here. You disregard the big damage dealer with bikes, that isnt ranged, and say the land raider is better? Ofc he's better if you do that. But thats an infair comparison.
A land raider is bad as a gun platform. Always was.

Point is, if you sent up a LR into a KEQ, you're in for a bad time. The LR will hardly do anything to the knight and get walloped in the following turn. As will bikes, but what do you expect if you send in 250 points against close to 500??
I also wouldn't say "one chaos land raider" is "most major tanks".
Like...bro. You're sounding like CadianSgtBob or Hecaton now. You're far better than that.

CSB is easily one of the smartest, but most argumentitive people on here, and Hecaton flat out hates me. So lol, that's hilarious...

I agreed with you that Bikes Out damage LRs.

I guess I am just desperately arguing to try and find some way to break up the monotony of running out the exact same units. I love Bikes btw. I tried for months to run an all bike list. It always sucked that it was basically impossible, and now even more so. I apologize if my points came off as combative or hyperbolic.

CSB is... well, I cant say what I think he is, but he's devious to say the least. Doesn't change the other attributes you give him, but yeah.. that kinda was the intent

You did? I'm sorry, I didn't catch that. And I read your reply like 3 times straight cause I didn't understand the point you were making...
But good, then that part is settled and we agree

I hear ya... like I said, the codex is in a really bad place... but there's one thing one can do, and which is what I'm doing - depending on what I play against, we just revert all the nerfs.
If I go against tyranids, we not only undo it, but give AoC to custodes as well and its STILL an uphill battle.
If I go against the more casual guard player, we don't, but in that case, custodes still punch down, even with termies, venetarii etc...
That breathes some life back into the codex, but having to houserule to that extent to even get a semi decent game is suboptimal at best.

To be honest, one of the most upsetting things about this specific faction, is that you are instantly lumped into a negative category. The "Ultra superior fanoboy with Golden Astartes Complex". I hate seeing some of the things said in the Custodes thread on Gen Discussion. I mean, I chose them because they were the least complicated to play and easiest to paint army. I had no idea I was a complete Chad for trying to play a less complicated faction.

I honestly feel like it would help custodes if were the not actually Custodes. If we were just say, the All new Primaris Army/sub faction. And give Custodes back to the fluff.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
To be honest, one of the most upsetting things about this specific faction, is that you are instantly lumped into a negative category. The "Ultra superior fanoboy with Golden Astartes Complex". I hate seeing some of the things said in the Custodes thread on Gen Discussion. I mean, I chose them because they were the least complicated to play and easiest to paint army. I had no idea I was a complete Chad for trying to play a less complicated faction.

I honestly feel like it would help custodes if were the not actually Custodes. If we were just say, the All new Primaris Army/sub faction. And give Custodes back to the fluff.

Nah, don't get rattled by these knuckleheads. Neither do Custodes have to justify their existance to some trolls, nor do most Custodes players have some superiority complex about their models or faction as a general. Wanting to play an elite faction with powerful individual models is not a sin and says absolutely nothing about you or your character and don't let anyone tell you otherwise. It's just a really bad dig used by someone desperate to save face because they were losing an argument.
It's like saying all knights players have some kind of god complex for wanting to play a super powerful robot and wanting that robot to feel....well, big and powerful ingame.

I mean, aside from two months of domination, we were far from the real Boogeymen that everyone makes us out to be. How did we become the recipients of all the hate? Surely Drukari or Harlequins, or DG were a far bigger Meta Stompers than we ever were.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I mean, aside from two months of domination, we were far from the real Boogeymen that everyone makes us out to be. How did we become the recipients of all the hate? Surely Drukari or Harlequins, or DG were a far bigger Meta Stompers than we ever were.

Honestly, who cares? Some naysayers are always going to hate on Custodes and to some extent also on Custodes players, no matter whether they are a strong book currently or not. The same is probably true for any faction in the game, not worth thinking about why.

Agreed. If you formulate such ideas, opinions and are that picky and derogatory... that means its just time for that ignore button and engaging other people that are actually open for discussion. On a forum. Instead of spewing, what is basically, hate.

I think, being the cause of many of those "Clicked Ignore buttons" myself, I can honestly say, it's better to let a fool reveal themselves, than to silence them. I'm glad that CSB and Smudge have the ability to discuss the value of PL and Points for 30+ pages. Honestly, I think they both have valid personal opinions. What bothers me is the people who just (And again, my hands are bloody here as well) come in to throw personal attacks.

That being said, BACK TO WHY LAND RAIDERS ARE THE BEST!!!

No but seriously, I want our Dex units to see more play. So often, we get conditioned to think that X unit is the best because it's the lynch pin of a successful Tournament list.

Did anyone think FULL Shield spam lists were viable before it succeeded? I didn't. I'm not saying LRs are going to shake the meta, but how often do people here go out of their comfort zone to see if a new unit CAN BE effective? I tried an All Warden list once. It was three squads of 10, and three Spear Captains, I think. It was actually really fun. It's efficacy was questionable, but my opponent was completely gobsmacked on what to do. Everyone is so conditioned to focus on MSU, no one was 30 Custodians with spears showing up on the front door, being like, Hello, please eat 100+ shooting attacks. Followed by charges.

I mean there could be some edge case... but mathematically, a LR just is... smelly.
The problem with the LR has been discussed a few times now and lies basically in its entire concept.
Lets sum up some traits of the LR.
It is a hugely expensive transport where transports want to be cheap.
It is also VERY durable, so easily able to protect its occupants - which usually are durable on themselves.
It has some long range firepower - yet needs to get close to deliver its cargo, where it is in grave danger if getting tarpitted or exploded by dangerous melee units.
It is a huge brick, so can block access for bigger models that need to deal with it first.

So, what would we need to do to make it worthwhile?
First option - pts reduction. That would put it in the same area as a Coronus (which noone uses as well for the same reasons).
Second option, and that is one I am personally very fond of - assault ramps.
If you give it assault ramps, you can get like a 19" move with the troops inside. That is quite a thing to pay for and THEN fall back, using its durability to survive for the turn while whatever could want to target it is destracted by whatever it just unloaded.

Third option - some other rules that make it feasible to stick around at the front. Being able to fire while still in combat, at whatever unit without penalty with the MACHINE SPIRIT keyword, e.g. Being able to pass terrain because it just crashes through it, e.g. being able to traverse BREACHABLE Terrain.

Fourth Option - finally give it the invul it requires as its a Custodes Land Raider and give it ObSec, making it count as 5 models so it can do something when it returns after delivering its cargo.

But it does need something, and T9 isn't it. Its just too expensive and/or hybrid for a MBT or a transport.

If we truly are Custodes, then we should have more units with built in, or purchasable Teleport packs. We shouldn't need to waste CP on FGLTC, or Transports. We are Custodes.

Now you've got me wishlisting.

Give SCs a 15point teleport Homer that can pull down entire squads on their location. Like what the flag has, but other non-flag units.

Also, the flag, when is the last time anyone mentioned it as a valuable take on a list? No one ever seems to take them these days.

I've actually seen a few comp lists with a Praetor and the dense cover flag.
I guess it could be really valuable in an Emissaris Sag Spam list

the magnifica is still better than the defensor most of the time.

Defensor only pulls ahead when using shield guard in solar watch or when spamming a bunch of contemptor dreads.

guys if we agree that a main body of 6 assorted contemptor dreads should be the core of the custode army atm, would you guys then rather have lots of infantry to back that up og salvo bikes to be a Killy threat to stuff?

I feel its either blocks of:

Trajan and saggitarums or dont use Trajan and then run lots of guards. Or 2x3 bikes.

oppinions?

6 contemptors is too many. You need to have an actual shooting threat in your list.

The standard competitive build right now is Trajann, 6 bikes, and 2-3 contemptors. The only time you don't take bikes is when you're taking a bunch of Caladius and Pallas. I suppose you could skip bikes if you have a detachment of armigers, but even those can't match the versatility and raw efficiency of bikes.

Do whatever makes YOU feel like you're having fun. Don't run Tournament lists, it's not tailored for a good time. If you want to run tons of bots and boots, go for it! Although, Bots and Babes (Temptors and Sisters) would make a better option....

Hi guys, I’d love to see some nephilim custodies lists but I can’t find any from recent tourneys online. Any idea where to find them?

I am not of the tourny seen, but my reddit tags haven't shown me any Custodes Competitive success in the past few months. Could there be a tripTemptor list?

Yeah, i sort of want to go dub temptor, dub galatus and dub archillus. That leaves room for trajan, bike cap and 3x3 naked guards. Might be two dreads til much, though.

Could be 4 dreads and 4 salvo bikes.