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Morgan Vening wrote:

 Original Timmy wrote:
How many people do you think would be needed to sign a petition for the owners of Adepticon to take notice and drop PB from their line up, 1000, 5000 or 10,000 signatures!?

None.

The only way Adepticon would remove PB from the lineup, is if there was solid evidence that not doing so would hurt their bottom line more than removing them. A petition, especially an online petition, is meaningless in that regard.

Because it would have to be people (and advertisers) willing to attend Adepticon, that refuse to do so explicitly because of Palladium's attendance. And I can't think that'd be more than a handful (and I mean that literally, five or less actual people), that would make that decision. People who would be going simply aren't going to cancel the decision to go to Adepticon, just because PB have a small booth there (that probably loses PB money overall).

So why should Adepticon care about a petition that is 95+% people who weren't going anyway, and the remaining percentage are mostly people that are going regardless of what management do?

Thats a fair point, if its not going to hurt their "bottom dollar" why take any notice, which is sad but the way the world runs now(maybe it always has just more widespread), money over principles!

Like its been said lets just hope the sales they make going to them doesnt cover their costs

 Forar wrote:


Some events seem to get them onboard just by having a nod thrown Kevin's way, as was shown in the past when PB made a big deal of attending shows that had an attendance history measured in the hundreds or thousands, compared to the hundreds of thousands (million+?) that a show like Gencon generates.

This is true. The two years Kevin was at Anime North in Toronto he was somehow an "Honoured Guest" and even got some award for supporting anime......

Last Year? The booth was run by a freelancer and one of the con organizers who frankly is enamoured with being connected to Kevin for some reason....and for a couple of hours they both disappeared leaving my friend Rob, who was only there to do RRT demos nothing more, essentially running the booth he wasn't even really part of. Not a single staffer of PB was there at all and the freelancer used part of the booth to hock his 3d design and printing business as he is a mechanical engineer.

It was a fraking joke.

Jaymz, did he have to buy his own ticket in order to do free labor for Palladium? If not then he got off easier than schmucks who volunteer at the Palladium's on site open house.

POH Volunteers Needed

We will also need volunteers to help us set up, admissions (confirming I.D. and handing out badges), emptying trash cans, store/sales assistance/restocking shelves, gopher, general assistance, parking lot, etc. You’ll get a volunteer’s badge and select perks that may include a product discount percentage commensurate with the amount of work and hours put in. NOTE: If you volunteer, please show up. Volunteers have to purchase their own admission ticket.

Yes, you have to PAY Kevin for the privilege of potentially cleaning his toilet. Lol.

This year he did. Last year I think they covered it for him.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Is that for this year's OH?

Yup, copy/pasted straight from this week's news. Why? Was it different in the past? I recall you mentioning going to it (and iirc getting chewed out for lack of support or somesuch after the fact). I think that was the year of the infamous informal you didn't even know you were voting poll where Kevin concluded 98% of fans were happy with the status quo at Palladium.

I've never been. Just wanted to make sure that was this year's as that's pretty much the SOP of previous ones.

"Do all the gak work and you MIGHT get a discount on merch but you have to pay your own way onto the property to do so"

I mean that's just bs man. A number of people are travelling to this ego stroke of an event and they can't even guarantee a discount level or wave the fee of entry for those who basically do janitorial work for free?

Funny reading how these "fan-friends" are treated.
Anywhere I have worked we keep the rule "Do not inconvenience the customer."
I figure the same thing applies for volunteers and contract / part-timers.
The logical consequence for either group is they stop coming by.

I read the PB update and was astonished at how stupid petty they sound regarding having volunteers pay admission. Really? You have people donating their time and to do so...you MAKE them pay their way in for that "privilege"? What the F is wrong with you PB? What's more astonishing is the dopes that will think that what they are doing is "fair" or part of the "experience". Ridiculous.

 CaptKaruthors wrote:
I read the PB update and was astonished at how stupid petty they sound regarding having volunteers pay admission. Really? You have people donating their time and to do so...you MAKE them pay their way in for that "privilege"? What the F is wrong with you PB? What's more astonishing is the dopes that will think that what they are doing is "fair" or part of the "experience". Ridiculous.

Narcissist.
"It is all about me."
The sooner you understand this, the better you will get along with Kevin.
Why should he pay your way?
You want to bask in his favor right?
You should be paying him for the privilege.

I wish I was stretching the truth here.

CaptKaruthors wrote:I read the PB update and was astonished at how stupid petty they sound regarding having volunteers pay admission. Really? You have people donating their time and to do so...you MAKE them pay their way in for that "privilege"? What the F is wrong with you PB? What's more astonishing is the dopes that will think that what they are doing is "fair" or part of the "experience". Ridiculous.

Plenty of conventions have volunteers but they're typically assigned light duty work *ESPECIALLY* if they're not comped for their badges. If they get entry for free then they might do some physical labor like setting up chairs but not the kind of stuff that might raise eyebrows like scrubbing toilets. It takes a special kind of person/company to make them both pay for the privelege to do the worst kind of work potentially.

jaymz wrote:I've never been. Just wanted to make sure that was this year's as that's pretty much the SOP of previous ones.

"Do all the gak work and you MIGHT get a discount on merch but you have to pay your own way onto the property to do so"

I mean that's just bs man. A number of people are travelling to this ego stroke of an event and they can't even guarantee a discount level or wave the fee of entry for those who basically do janitorial work for free?

I must have been conflating you with a bit of Jorel then. I know he got chewed out as well for not clapping hard enough but I could have sworn that you said you participated in an OH poll once. Sorry.

Talizvar wrote:Funny reading how these "fan-friends" are treated.
Anywhere I have worked we keep the rule "Do not inconvenience the customer."
I figure the same thing applies for volunteers and contract / part-timers.
The logical consequence for either group is they stop coming by.

I guess that's why they're not referred to as customers but rather the supposedly superlative fan-friends moniker. They obviously don't stop coming by given their ongoing financial support of a company that breaks pretty much every public promise (whether crowdfunding reward or posted release date) they make and asks them to do in person what no other company would dream of.

How much is a ticket to the Open House?

It can't be that much...can it?

Well think about it, cost to enter plus travel costs plus accommodation costs.

Most of the people that attend to so from well out of town.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
http://palladium-store.com/1001/product/POH-3DAY-Palladium-Open-House-Weekend.html

Well, Still nothing from Scott working from his home office in Texas... Maybe to sick to make it to his laptop.. But I am sure he will be at the Open House

Also.. It makes my brain hurt to think someone would drive from Texas to Michigan, pay to attend.. hotel, etc. run demos and stay behind to clean up .
Then literally clean the toilets for them. Just hope that Kevin doesn't ask Scott to knock off every RRT backer... I think he might try it...

 jaymz wrote:

both disappeared leaving my friend Rob, who was only there to do RRT demos nothing more, essentially running the booth he wasn't even really part of..

Your friend Rob sound like a RRT supporter.. Now that it's going into it's Fifth year.. What does he feel about the game now?? I know there is pocket groups that are doing
their own home brew game version and proxy models... But I paid the most of any other Kickstarter I backed and still want the figures I am owed..

Interesting:

http://www.denofgeek.com/us/movies/robotech/262567/the-troubled-genesis-of-robotech-the-shadow-chronicles

Very interesting...

He's not too happy. I think he bought a showdown or a reckless.

He's more a lover of robotech in general than rrt specifically but he actually really likes the game itself and was the winner of both Gencon tourneys iirc.

I feel for him. Before I gave up he and I were talking about joining forces to try and do something for a local community but alas.....

Its pretty common for cons to charge volunteers for badges, but then reimburse them after they perform the volunteer hours if there is a deal to work so many hours for a free badge.

Of course, many of the bigger cons are running into labor department trouble with unpaid volunteers since the labor department views them as contract employees tat need to be comoensated and taxed.

Except, as you can see, PB plans to compensate the volunteer janitorial stockboy sales assistants by MAYBE giving them a discount on product that, judging by who typically attends, they already have and do not need additional copies of.

 jaymz wrote:
Except, as you can see, PB plans to compensate the volunteer janitorial stockboy sales assistants by MAYBE giving them a discount on product that, judging by who typically attends, they already have and do not need additional copies of.

Maybe they do it for the swag? Like all those cheap mugs and t-shirts? A shirt that reads 'I cleaned PB's toilets at the open house and all I got was this t-shirt' seems oddly appropriate.

Don't forget that it can also apparently help make you upper (remote) management at the company.

I paid my own way to Gencon last year, and volunteered at the FFP booth to demo Shadows of Brimstone for a couple of hours across that weekend. I did it entirely because I love the game and figured that sharing it with people was a good way to include some dedicated time for SoB gaming and help out a company I think is awesome. Not perfect, lest some decide to use that as a jumping off point, but pretty awesome all the same. So I can't entirely throw stones on 'lawl what kind of volunteer does unpaid work!', though they did give me a discount on store purchases, and one of the FFP guys walked me around and gave me a bunch of product for free. So even without expecting it, I felt my time was compensated for, despite that not being necessary or a precursor to my participation.

When I help at various local conventions with my friend's booth, she buys the passes, and always makes sure I get hooked up with some snacks (brings lunches, makes sure I get some goodies from the product, etc). Doesn't stop me from buying stuff as well, because she's a small business owner and as much as I appreciate her generosity, I don't want her intentionally putting dents in her bottom line either.

This year I'll be volunteering with FFP full time at Gencon, and will be subject to the privileges and responsibilities as laid out ahead of the event by them, and negotiated in a series of very reasonable emails. Thanks to having a pile of credit card points banked, it'll cost me about $100 for the round trip flight, and aside from that and walking around money (Dwarven Forge booth, I'm looking at you), I'm pretty much covered. They're paying for my pass, hotel room, lunches, dinners (I usually skip any substantial breakfast at these things), I'll have the opportunity to buy product at a discount, and will get time to wander around as well, as we all need breaks eventually.

So, while I do share in the sense of 'how outrageous!' that PB would expect volunteers to pay for their passes, I'm also not blind to many such arrangements being common as well. It also needs more context. Sure, a little nod and a dusty Rifter for someone who is a volunteer (for a single 2 hour session) versus someone driving out on their own dime to run 30+ hours of epic campaign across the weekend.

Add in the... frankly unhealthy relationship some of these people have with the company, what seems even quasi reasonable to us might seem like an outright bargain to some of them. Think back to the vocalist of the white knights, not just the supporters, but those who harshly attack even the mildest of critique. We know that there are sorts who are so passionate that they'll eagerly pay for the right to give away a free weekend, even if they're not quite so common in the KS comments anymore.

To be clear, I'm not defending the practice, I'm simply sharing of my experiences (past, present, and future) as a convention/booth volunteer. I'll be working the Toronto booth for 3 days in March at out Comic Con, under the expectations noted above.

Frankly, those periods involve my taking vacation time from work, and are harder/longer hours than I put in at my day job. Because it's for a friend, and it's something I enjoy, and helps a business I'm passionate about.

Hey, Kevin gave the guy a job to work for his company. What better compensation could you ask for?

At least he won’t be reqiured to work for a paycheck anymore, as his recent lateness has shown.

Forar- volunteering to do demos I get....ive done it...volunteering to be a bloody janitor is quite another.

 Forar wrote:
I paid my own way to Gencon last year, and volunteered at the FFP booth to demo Shadows of Brimstone for a couple of hours across that weekend. I did it entirely because I love the game and figured that sharing it with people was a good way to include some dedicated time for SoB gaming and help out a company I think is awesome. Not perfect, lest some decide to use that as a jumping off point, but pretty awesome all the same. So I can't entirely throw stones on 'lawl what kind of volunteer does unpaid work!', though they did give me a discount on store purchases, and one of the FFP guys walked me around and gave me a bunch of product for free. So even without expecting it, I felt my time was compensated for, despite that not being necessary or a precursor to my participation.

When I help at various local conventions with my friend's booth, she buys the passes, and always makes sure I get hooked up with some snacks (brings lunches, makes sure I get some goodies from the product, etc). Doesn't stop me from buying stuff as well, because she's a small business owner and as much as I appreciate her generosity, I don't want her intentionally putting dents in her bottom line either.

This year I'll be volunteering with FFP full time at Gencon, and will be subject to the privileges and responsibilities as laid out ahead of the event by them, and negotiated in a series of very reasonable emails. Thanks to having a pile of credit card points banked, it'll cost me about $100 for the round trip flight, and aside from that and walking around money (Dwarven Forge booth, I'm looking at you), I'm pretty much covered. They're paying for my pass, hotel room, lunches, dinners (I usually skip any substantial breakfast at these things), I'll have the opportunity to buy product at a discount, and will get time to wander around as well, as we all need breaks eventually.

So, while I do share in the sense of 'how outrageous!' that PB would expect volunteers to pay for their passes, I'm also not blind to many such arrangements being common as well. It also needs more context. Sure, a little nod and a dusty Rifter for someone who is a volunteer (for a single 2 hour session) versus someone driving out on their own dime to run 30+ hours of epic campaign across the weekend.

Add in the... frankly unhealthy relationship some of these people have with the company, what seems even quasi reasonable to us might seem like an outright bargain to some of them. Think back to the vocalist of the white knights, not just the supporters, but those who harshly attack even the mildest of critique. We know that there are sorts who are so passionate that they'll eagerly pay for the right to give away a free weekend, even if they're not quite so common in the KS comments anymore.

To be clear, I'm not defending the practice, I'm simply sharing of my experiences (past, present, and future) as a convention/booth volunteer. I'll be working the Toronto booth for 3 days in March at out Comic Con, under the expectations noted above.

Frankly, those periods involve my taking vacation time from work, and are harder/longer hours than I put in at my day job. Because it's for a friend, and it's something I enjoy, and helps a business I'm passionate about.

Forar, I don't think anyone would consider your post to be defending Palladium's antics as what you describe and what Palladium does are similar in name only. In your case, you're getting several hundred dollars worth of renumeration for your substantial efforts when you consider the value of half a room in a mostly sold out city during a big event plus meals and such plus meals, and badge. Additionally, you are asked to do work commensurate with the expectation of a convention volunteer. A Palladium volunteer pays for all of his or her expenses, potentially does scut work that the employees don't want to do, and gets a t-shirt as thanks. It's an apples to rotten tomatoes comparison when you look at the details.

Palladium volunteers literally end up in the red before lifting a finger because the price of the badge is more than any normal value of a promotional t-shirt before considering travel expenses. They're not getting some sort of renumeration for their efforts like in your case but rather a discount on the price they pay for the priveledge of doing free labor for Palladium. And also please consider that Palladium's open house is an on site wholey owned event operated in their normal paid for space that they keep 100% of the profits from unlike your conventions where exhibitors are subject to many more fees and expenses before the doors ever open. Yes, both can be considered labors of love done for for-profit companies but in one case the free labor is much more fairly reciprocated than the other.

There is nothing wrong for volunteering at gaming conventions and liking Palladium games.. but I feel with their track record someone
might get there, promised something and get something very different.

Little off topic but I feel something like this could happen at the open house...

I remember a few years back I volunteered at a local gaming convention. Contacted the organizer that was actually a part of a college
gaming club that was the sponsor. Never attended the meetings because of the drive distance but kept in email contact with the guy up to the
week before the convention. The agreement was free admission for Saturday for running three games

This was about the time Zombies!!! was super hot and I had contacted Twilight Creations about convention prize support for my games. They said
could not send product directly to me but would confirm with my contact and send it directly to the convention... So I planned to run sessions of
their game all day Saturday.

Day of the convention after driving a few hours; I get to the front desk and ask for my contact by name.. I was told he was no longer involded
with the convention. I told them I was there to run games and they said they had no record of me but my games where listed on the board.
Plus; I would have to pay admission and get free admission next year for running the games. I told them If I pay to get in.. I am playing games,
not running them. They had very few games listed on the sign up board and a number of them had cancelled.. They finally agreed to the
free admission and I asked if the Twilight creation prize support stuff that I had special ordered was... they said only prize support was donated
by the local game store. No one even attempted to look and there was a number of them just sitting at the booth

I ran the games and had fun... even had a few buy the game the same day from the FLGS; The prize support they gave me was a clearance
card game about cows... Next table over that was being ran by one of the organizers.. you guessed it.. a Twilight creations T-Shirt..
Found out later from the FLGS owner that TC had really came threw and sent a number of things.. but during the last weeks before the convention
there was a lot of in fighting in the game club and a bunch of the main people left...

A few years later the convention at the college ended after decades of it being there...

Back on topic... Another Tuesday past... looks like we are back to radio silence..

 warboss wrote:
Forar, I don't think anyone would consider your post to be defending Palladium's antics as what you describe and what Palladium does are similar in name only. In your case, you're getting several hundred dollars worth of renumeration for your substantial efforts when you consider the value of half a room in a mostly sold out city during a big event plus meals and such plus meals, and badge. Additionally, you are asked to do work commensurate with the expectation of a convention volunteer. A Palladium volunteer pays for all of his or her expenses, potentially does scut work that the employees don't want to do, and gets a t-shirt as thanks. It's an apples to rotten tomatoes comparison when you look at the details.

Palladium volunteers literally end up in the red before lifting a finger because the price of the badge is more than any normal value of a promotional t-shirt before considering travel expenses. They're not getting some sort of renumeration for their efforts like in your case but rather a discount on the price they pay for the priveledge of doing free labor for Palladium. And also please consider that Palladium's open house is an on site wholey owned event operated in their normal paid for space that they keep 100% of the profits from unlike your conventions where exhibitors are subject to many more fees and expenses before the doors ever open. Yes, both can be considered labors of love done for for-profit companies but in one case the free labor is much more fairly reciprocated than the other.

Oh, I wasn't particularly worried about people thinking I was defending PB's actions, just thought I'd share my experiences. As I read the comments about it, I had a welling urge to lay into them as well, but then thought I'd take a step back and contrast my experiences with what is here.

It certainly doesn't line up perfectly, and there's a difference between "you need to have a badge to get into Gencon to participate on a minor level" (like I did last year) versus "you need to pay your own way for an event that is in our space and entirely run by us".

Agreed, scrubbing toilets (especially after a couple dozen people were putting them through their paces) is not something I'd consider work for a volunteer that I wanted to keep around, but my leadership style has generally been 'what's the worst job on the list, if nobody else has an inexplicable reason to take it, I'll do it myself, if not volunteer ahead of time', so it just wouldn't occur to me.

It was more that I realized there are a number of ways I give up time or labour or other resources willingly for conventions, but you're right that it's not a perfect comparison, and I certainly hadn't intended to indicate as much.

Since we’re sharing experiences, I have done volunteer DM’ing at two local cons in return for either a reduced or free entry fee. In both cases, had to pay up front then got money back once I turned in my work/gaming sheet to prove I’d fulilled my end of the agreement.

However, from what I’ve read of PB’s Open House, Kevin’s speil seems to have been they are essentially run as a way to pay their basic bills and thus they are resistant to giving discounts because its meant to be a donation to keeping them in business in return for a peek behind the curtain, so to speeak. I’m not against that sort of thing, if at least the people coming are made aware of this and want to volunteer their help anyway.

But being typical PB, they take it too far without thinking twice. Really, getting your volunteers to clean your company restrooms - after they’ve been visited by maybe a hundred or so partying individuals ... that feels like it crosses some sort of line of taking advantage of volunteers.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I am suddenly reminded of the worst volunteer work I got myself into....

When I first met my future wife, she was involved in the SCA. That first year I met her, they were running a local event - Gulf Wars II. At the time, I’d known her (and the group) about 2 weeks. The field where the weekend war to take place was a cow/horse pasture and needed to be cleaned of manure. We’re talking a couple acres with droppings withing a few steps of each other. Without even blinking, I took the shovel and wheelbarrow and cleaned the field. By myself.

Looking back, that was literally a pretty gakky thing to have been asked to do after being with them such a short time. Talk about drawing the short straw.

*sigh*, oh well, I got a wife out of it...

Ah cow manure...the scent of money for a country boy. I spent most of my teen years putting up hay in the summer and slogging thru foot deep manure in barn lots in the winter

 Stormonu wrote:

*sigh*, oh well, I got a wife out of it...

Sounds like a better deal than a likely temporary off site middle management job at Palladium...

I guess woke up on the wrong side of the bed... I know it won't go very far but I wrote a letter to kick-starter about
if they don't get involved in pushing this kick-starter to complete they will most likely see new government regulations added to their company because of it.

Next I am working on a letter to Harmony gold stating that my view that this kick-starter has damaged their image and licence

After that I am planning to contact my local state repetitive; and states attorney; reference what Washington and other states have done in the past
for kick-starters that stole money.. because at this point there is no RRT

It will make me fell better and maybe enough sparks it will start a fire under someone...

Send a letter to Tatsunoko and Big West as well, and let them know that these US companies (HG & PB) are destroying US interest in their product.